Quick Little Rant

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    tinypantha
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    Quick Little Rant

    Post by tinypantha on Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:49 pm

    Alright Guys,
    Dex Builds do not require poise.
    Rant:

    Dex Builds are made to light not people who can afford to exchange hits like two heavy builds going at it with Zweis. Dual wielding is also a viable thing for DEX builds because it allows for versatility and can also trick your enemy who may be going for a parry. I am not going to go into detail on MY dual wielding tactics because that would be a little too much information on my playstyle for now.

    Back on Topic:
    Dex builds should have very little poise. the dark wood grain ring is given to DEX builds for a reason because it gives us the extra frames when you roll but takes up a ring slot as a result.

    Havels Ring should never be used on a dex build. No armor is out there that is should require havels ring unless you have totally messed up your build and have default END but even then most of my builds dont even level up END for weight reasons.

    Leo ring is another thing that shouldn't be such a go to when playing dex. You aren't fighting to exchange hits to get that counter damage! You may get the timing down to attack and roll but eh, that isnt what most of us do now is it?

    RoF this ring is OK I guess for builds but still you shouldn't need that extra weight when playing dex unless you are poise banking.

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    I have forgotten if there is a new rule on rants that arent calling things O.P. This is just me ranting on the fact that Dex builds think that it is almost always needed to have poise.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by LunarFog on Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:58 pm

    It doesn't matter how tasteless it is: people use what works.

    Thats why you see dex builds stacking poise, tanks using darkwoodgrain ring and hornet ring with super big weapons, and magicians.

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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by The Letter X on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:17 pm

    If I used the DWGR on my quality build, it'd be ridiculous on how many things I can get away with. I use Havel's instead of the DWGR for a bigger challenge when dual wielding, which is all the time, because I want to carry more weapons and I want to actually get punished for making a mistake. If I went with 0 poise, I'd be too tempted to exploit toggle escape more than I do now.

    I understand where you're coming from, but the DWGR is an item I refuse to use.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:31 pm

    Its called a safety net, going without one is rarely a good idea. Poise is the difference between taking 1 and taking 2 or 3 hits if you screw up.

    spears/halberds and katana have little to no need to trade hits to get the leo counter damage, as they are more than capable of outranging an enemy and hitting them mid swing without taking damage themselves, either by turtling or by predicting and punishing an enemy attack.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:41 pm

    Dex builds DO need poise for one very good reason: lag.You can dodge and block all you want but you'll still sometimes get hit while your opponent is swinging in the opposite direction which can lead to stunlock.I in no way believe you should trade hits but not getting murdered by claymores and halberds is a decent goal.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Nugget on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:44 pm

    I disagree, I think you're overgeneralizing what you think a dex build should be, and that isn't necessarily the case. Dex builds that have a lot of poise or even bulkier armor are viable. Especially considering that you never know what your opponent will be using, having a lot of poise helps you be prepared for situations where you'd be likely to get staggered and killed as opposed to tanking a hit and being able recover your stamina. Obviously high poise/bulky armor builds work better with a strength build, but the reason people stack poise at the end of the day is because, frankly, it works.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:55 pm

    The problem with no poise is that it is the one mistake will decide if you lose. Being light and fast to dodge will only aid you for so long before you make a mistake. Any player quick to notice that the weapon they have can stunlock you will abuse that weakness and defeat you when you could have won the fight with a little poise. It is a fail-safe for mistakes that cost you. Being dex does not mean that you can't have poise or quick just effective with weapons that do not require pure force to deal a lot of damage with.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:59 pm

    I beat you, I now have the shortest rant on the forum! It is an oxymoron and beyond!

    In regards to the topic, I'd be interested in Dark Souls 2 causing there to be more of a difference between builds. I do agree that poise and defense should be focused more on slow moving builds while the, perhaps dexterity, lighter builds should focus more on mobility with perhaps a bit of increased offense. Though the offense capabilities could simply come from being able to close the distance easier.
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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:06 pm

    Threads like these are fine because they are an honest examination of the nuances of the game, and it's not a topic that has been beaten to death.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:20 pm

    I'm going to add: dexterity=/= speed. They are often used interchangibly, but they are different.

    Dexterity is skill. Its used for things that require percision to be effective (eg katana, dagger, rapier ect.)

    It doesn't really matter where a mace hits, it crushes armor and breaks bones anyways, but katana, being almost completely incapable of penetrating metal armor, must be used to strike unarmored or lightly armored areas.

    There were plenty of historical examples of heavily armored katana or spear/halberd users, to back my point.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Derpwraith on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:26 pm

    He's not just angry, he's ANGWY


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:27 pm

    Armored Katana users were actually monsters in the field, since they mostly fought against unarmored Katana users.

    "I'm using a weapon specifically designed for cutting through flesh, while wearing armor. You're using the same armor, but are dressed in a robe....Guess who is going to probably live through this fight?"
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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:46 pm

    Katanas were never meant for heavy armor anyway, you damaged the blade. Light armor was weak against it and katanas never required pure force in the swing. just an angle and a precise swing. Also you used a Wakizashi for close quarter combat as your side arm.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:49 pm

    Dex can get away with 0 poise vs. strength or Quality builds (TBH almost any build can), but in Dex mirror matches, if one guy has 0 poise and another has 32, the guy with 32 will have a stupid advantage.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:37 am

    Dex can use poise freely because the low weight of the weapons allows to do so at low SL (ie. SL 100), while at the same time having high HP (1800).


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:56 am

    What should we do?
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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by swordiris on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:34 am

    I'd agree with the OP if Dark Souls had no lag.

    This is how Dex builds SHOULD be.

    I hope Dark Souls 2 touches up the netcode so we can see these builds, I've made some where I'm nearly naked to fast roll and have no poise. Builds that aren't met for taking a hit, just finding openings in my opponent.

    These builds are often unsuccessful because someone swings their zwei and hits from the other direction.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Nybbles on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:49 am

    dexterity builds can do everything that a strength build wants to do but can't.

    they can wear heavy armor with more poise because the weapons weigh practically nothing … they can have higher vitality since they don't need to gouge endurance to carry around a heavy weapon … they are better at trading blows due to the ridiculously fast swing speeds, need far less stamina per swing and most have bleed which rips off 2/3 of your health in an instant.

    why wouldn't you want to use a dexterity weapon if you are playing a tank?
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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by tinypantha on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:22 pm

    swordiris wrote:I'd agree with the OP if Dark Souls had no lag.

    This is how Dex builds SHOULD be.

    I hope Dark Souls 2 touches up the netcode so we can see these builds, I've made some where I'm nearly naked to fast roll and have no poise. Builds that aren't met for taking a hit, just finding openings in my opponent.

    These builds are often unsuccessful because someone swings their zwei and hits from the other direction.

    Rarely Happens to me. I normally just get a pattern down for each player by judging their playstyle. This normally prevents me from getting lag hitted due to me normally rolling in advance


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:00 pm

    No one with an answer huh?...

    ...I say a FC with some real rules is where the big boys would play.
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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:10 pm

    tinypantha wrote:
    swordiris wrote:I'd agree with the OP if Dark Souls had no lag.

    This is how Dex builds SHOULD be.

    I hope Dark Souls 2 touches up the netcode so we can see these builds, I've made some where I'm nearly naked to fast roll and have no poise. Builds that aren't met for taking a hit, just finding openings in my opponent.

    These builds are often unsuccessful because someone swings their zwei and hits from the other direction.

    Rarely Happens to me. I normally just get a pattern down for each player by judging their playstyle. This normally prevents me from getting lag hitted due to me normally rolling in advance
    Rolling 'in advance' is somewhere in the top 5 things never to do vs. heavy weapons. If you want to avoid lag-hit, use your i-frames.


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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:18 pm

    I'd say rolling in advance is actually one of the worst things you can do against a strength user.

    "Oh they're going to be there, well let me just change the direction of this swing and get some dead angles going."
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    Re: Quick Little Rant

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:31 pm

    Then bs you while your stunned, thus killing you.

    Way to pay attention by the way people, its already been explained that your concept of dex builds is wrong.


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