Where'd the Black Flame come from?

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    Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Automancer on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:03 pm

    Clearly it wasn't created in the Great Swamp nor by Quelana. Was it a regular Great Combustion that got corrupted by the Abyss?


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:29 pm

    It's a Pyromancy form the Abyss. A wanderer found it in his exploration of the Abyss.


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Automancer on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:34 pm

    Look Skyward I know what's in the lore text of the spell. It never stated who created it.


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:36 pm

    Automancer wrote: Look Skyward I know what's in the lore text of the spell. It never stated who created it.
    I'm pretty sure it's a corrupt fire. Maybe when someone had their flame down their, it was corrupted by the Abyss, and it became Black Flame. It might explain why it is surrounded by Humanities. Just my thoughts. Kind of like how Artorias was corrupted, except with fire.


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Djem on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:53 pm

    Maybe it uses 'Humanity' or the 'Abyss' via Pyromancy, in a manner which Pyromancy uses 'Fire'. Just like dark magic uses 'Abyss' or 'Humanity' as Sorcery instead of Souls.

    Basicly I'm saying it's Pyromancy, but instead of using Fire as fuel it uses Dark. Or Fire fused with Humanity. (Which is esentially what Dark/Abyss is.)
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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by densetsushun on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:15 pm

    Speculation:

    If Black Flame is corrupted Pyromancy, does that mean that we can infer that the Abyss can corrupt fire? And would that lead to meaning that, inevitably, darkness will always win over light in the world of DkS?


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Automancer on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:17 pm

    ^ That's kinda the point since Gywn fears the dark.


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:18 pm

    densetsushun wrote:
    Speculation:

    If Black Flame is corrupted Pyromancy, does that mean that we can infer that the Abyss can corrupt fire? And would that lead to meaning that, inevitably, darkness will always win over light in the world of DkS?

    We already know that Darkness will eventually consume all light, it tells us this in the opening cutscene. We also know that light is the only way to get rid of the darkness, such as getting the Silver Pendant. So, light, they only thing that gets rid of darkness, will be consumed by darkness.


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by densetsushun on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:26 pm

    I see it more as light eventually going out and leaving darkness(from a physics standpoint at least, darkness is merely the absence of light) but I'm wondering if this implies that in the context of Dark Souls, darkness will always prevail over light.


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:30 pm

    densetsushun wrote:I see it more as light eventually going out and leaving darkness(from a physics standpoint at least, darkness is merely the absence of light) but I'm wondering if this implies that in the context of Dark Souls, darkness will always prevail over light.
    Are you sure light isn't the absence of darkness? The opening implies that the world was originally dark, then fire created light. So, dark would be the original here. In other words, there is no dark if light is present.


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Djem on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:48 pm

    Dibsville wrote:
    densetsushun wrote:I see it more as light eventually going out and leaving darkness(from a physics standpoint at least, darkness is merely the absence of light) but I'm wondering if this implies that in the context of Dark Souls, darkness will always prevail over light.
    Are you sure light isn't the absence of darkness? The opening implies that the world was originally dark, then fire created light. So, dark would be the original here. In other words, there is no dark if light is present.

    I'm not a phsyicist, not even close. And the chances are I will be mocked by someone who knows his physics for this; but I think in real life darkness is the absence of light, and not the other way around. Because we know that light is a tangible thing.
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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:50 pm

    Djem wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:
    densetsushun wrote:I see it more as light eventually going out and leaving darkness(from a physics standpoint at least, darkness is merely the absence of light) but I'm wondering if this implies that in the context of Dark Souls, darkness will always prevail over light.
    Are you sure light isn't the absence of darkness? The opening implies that the world was originally dark, then fire created light. So, dark would be the original here. In other words, there is no dark if light is present.

    I'm not a phsyicist, not even close. And the chances are I will be mocked by someone who knows his physics for this; but I think in real life darkness is the absence of light, and not the other way around. Because we know that light is a tangible thing.
    Light is the absence of darkness, dark is the original. If there is no light, it's dark. If there is light, there is still dark, but it's absent. Darkness is not the absence of light, light is the absence of darkness.


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Acarnatia on Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:01 pm

    Actually, the opening states that the world was 'grey, and clouded by fog.' A 'colorless, grey fog' was a huge part of the story of Demons' Souls, Dark Souls' spiritual predecessor. While humans may have white or black character tendency, (alignment/morality with white being good and black being evil) the medium and default setting was grey/colorless, and demons, especially the Primeval Demons and the Old One (the thing that will slowly annihilate the world) are colorless-lacking any color, even white or black. Rather than a powerful, raging evil, the Old One is nothingness incarnate and actually destroys the world slowly through its 'deep fog,' in a manner that is more of withering away into nothing rather than murder. Even Saint Urbain (a priest so pious he was Sainted in his own lifetime) commented, upon hearing the wails of the Old One, that it did not sound like a demon; rather, he was deeply unnerved because he thought it sounded 'like a poor, hungry child.'
    A similar colorless/grey state is hinted at in Dark Souls as the Age of Ancients, the time when all that existed where stone, archtrees and dragons. As it the opening said, '... and with Fire, came disparity, (separation/differentiation) meaning that only when Fire was born was there life and death, heat and cold, Light and Dark. Based on this, I think grey/colorless is the default of the Dark universe, not Dark or Fire/Light.


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:05 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:Actually, the opening states that the world was 'grey, and clouded by fog.' A 'colorless, grey fog' was a huge part of the story of Demons' Souls, Dark Souls' spiritual predecessor. While humans may have white or black character tendency, (alignment/morality with white being good and black being evil) the medium and default setting was grey/colorless, and demons, especially the Primeval Demons and the Old One (the thing that will slowly annihilate the world) are colorless-lacking any color, even white or black. Rather than a powerful, raging evil, the Old One is nothingness incarnate and actually destroys the world slowly through its 'deep fog,' in a manner that is more of withering away into nothing rather than murder. Even Saint Urbain (a priest so pious he was Sainted in his own lifetime) commented, upon hearing the wails of the Old One, that it did not sound like a demon; rather, he was deeply unnerved because he thought it sounded 'like a poor, hungry child.'
    A similar colorless/grey state is hinted at in Dark Souls as the Age of Ancients, the time when all that existed where stone, archtrees and dragons. As it the opening said, '... and with Fire, came disparity, (separation/differentiation) meaning that only when Fire was born was there life and death, heat and cold, Light and Dark. Based on this, I think grey/colorless is the default of the Dark universe, not Dark or Fire/Light.
    You make a good point. Once something is born, a nemesis must come into existance. This would mean that grey is the default, and once light was born, dark was born with it. This would also mean that the world was warm, and that nothing neither lived nor died, they were just there.


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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by psychichobo on Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:32 pm

    Going round to the original topic, Pyromancy is apparently the art of drawing the fire inside oneself...

    Yet Gwyn feared the Age of Dark, and clung to the Age of Fire.

    Manus was human - in fact, his grave is tiny. When he was dug up he must've been in human form. He is overflowing with Humanity, which is essentially a dark, warm black thing. Only his soul is black and humanity like, compared to the others which are golden.

    Humans could wield pyromancy only after Salaman taught them, who in turn was taught by Quelana, the 'mother of all pyromancy'. Despite the fact her mother the Witch was the master of it, her being called the 'mother' suggests she created or bestowed the form unto humans as it is known in Dark Souls.

    So... it's not too difficult to assume Manus existed before Quelana taught Salaman. So therefore it is possible that the Black Flame is the true essence of the human fire inside oneself, and this was found and created long before even perhaps the Age of Fire, or certainly before Salaman.

    As such, I see the Black Flame as not a corrupted Fire, but rather the true fire as is drawn from the one the Pygmy kept concealed.



    Heck, I'm actually wondering if Manus himself IS the Pygmy. His grave is very small - even by human standards. He is frequently referred to as the Primeval Human, and it was apparently a Serpent that urged Oolacile to dig down and find him - which is probably our Darkstalker friend Kaathe, who is intent on dethroning Gwyn and instating the Dark Lord.
    It's possible that, as with the other bearers of the Flame, Manus as the Pygmy went nuts, or the Dark Soul corrupted the non-human residents of Oolacile. The people of Oolacile aren't human - Elizabeth keeps referring to Manus as 'that primeval human' as though the other residents aren't, and Ciaran reacts rather oddly when she finds that you are human. Therefore, the Dark Soul doesn't work with non-humans (the Four Kings seem like they're not quite right which further supports this).

    I'm sort of bouncing around a lot of theories in my head now about this... all this over a single Dark Pyromancy spell, wow...
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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Djem on Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:24 pm

    psychichobo wrote:Going round to the original topic, Pyromancy is apparently the art of drawing the fire inside oneself...

    Yet Gwyn feared the Age of Dark, and clung to the Age of Fire.

    Manus was human - in fact, his grave is tiny. When he was dug up he must've been in human form. He is overflowing with Humanity, which is essentially a dark, warm black thing.

    Where did you get that Humanity is warm?

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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by psychichobo on Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:41 pm

    Oh, I think I'm getting it mixed up with Manus's Soul - which is described as a warm, viscous mass.

    Mind, Snuggly trades for Humanity. But then she trades for Coins, and I'm pretty certain they ain't warm or soft...
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    Re: Where'd the Black Flame come from?

    Post by Djem on Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:55 pm

    I would think Manus' Soul is Humanity went wild, so it could be different from normal Humanity in that aspect.

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