Japanese people telling it how it is.

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    KrazykevS10
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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:17 pm

    Either way,you have to be hit to toggle escape so why the hate?You guys got a hit,I'd say be happy you did.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:18 pm

    Rynn wrote:Blocking detects what angle you are standing at from your opponent, that's why Wrath Dead Angles by giving your opponent your back, This is the same reason hitting with other weapons from more than 90 degree's works. The game uses the same reasoning for NPC's as players, and so if Dead Angling wasn't intentional, than it would work against an NPC as well. Different mechanics are used on players and NPC's, such as shield deflection, and this is not by mistake.
    In PvP, block detection is just a lot simpler than the more sophisticated (and intuitive) blocking detection used in PvE. It seems more feasible to me that FROM simplified the block detection for other reasons (faster data transger?) rather than replacing the good PvE block detection with shoddy block detection to make dead angle possible for the purpose of... what exactly? It's not like you can't do a similar thing to dead angling in PvE.

    @The Letter X: That realization shattered the last hopes I had for Zweihander being a good weapon ever in high-level play. Katana guy runs at you. You R1 and hit him! Ya- he swap escapes, recovering even faster than he would have if he had poised through your attack, walks around, backstabs you. You dealt: 500 damage. He dealt: 700 damage + knockdown.

    Damn it FROM.

    On the plus side it's fun using it to do dumb stuff. Guy with Claymore
    runs at you! R1 trade with his running R1, first-hit swap, roll, 1H
    rolling R1, backstab from hitstun. He dealt: 400 damage. You dealt: 1800 damage + knockdown + he's probably dead.

    Of course he might know how to do it as well, so...


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Rynn on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:22 pm

    If they had simplified it for Data Transfer reasons, then PvE mobs COULD be dead angled if you were currently invaded, or invaders could dead angle solaire while you have him summoned as an ally, so that data could transfer faster.

    I find the most compelling argument for my statement to be that on PC a person turned on a nameless value that players have set to 1, that NPC's have set to 0, and when NPC's had it set to 1 they did not deflect/be deflected by shields, and could dead angle/be dead angled. That livestream is in fact the sole reason I became 100% certain Dead Angling isn't a glitch.
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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by nsane32 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:26 pm

    now you just lost me no idea what your talking about now


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:31 pm

    See I was just thinking how nice it was to have an example of a thing that was very disputable about whether or not it was a glitch so that I could point to it and say, "See? Perfect example of why you shouldn't ban things based on distinguishing them as a glitch! It's difficult to always objectively know if something is a glitch or not! Hah!" Then this happened:

    Rynn wrote: a person turned on a nameless value that players have set to 1, that NPC's have set to 0, and when NPC's had it set to 1 they did not deflect/be deflected by shields, and could dead angle/be dead angled.

    It's okay though because I learned stuff.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Jansports on Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:29 pm

    I have hundreds of hours logged push locking people in DeS and I don't recall ever once seeing a toggle escape.

    However if it was in DeS, then I still don't like it because "stats"
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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:48 pm

    Jansports wrote:I have hundreds of hours logged push locking people in DeS and I don't recall ever once seeing a toggle escape.
    Were you doing SL 120 PvP? It was relatively unknown outside of there, I think. But yeah, people figured out about toggle escape like around mid-early 2010 and quickly became common knowledge within the 4-1 crowd. So maybe like maybe a little less than three years ago. Cross-up on the other hand I didn't figure out until mid-late 2011, and I don't think it really became common knowledge until EWGF made his youtube series for Dark Souls explaining it.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Emergence on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:28 pm

    Yes, toggle escape was carried over from Demon's. It was the end of the push lock to win, and became a staple "best practice" of 4-1 pvp. Funny how context can change something from hero to goat.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:47 pm

    Emergence wrote:change something from hero to goat.
    This thing you said, I do not understand what it means.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Emergence on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:48 pm

    Meaning people loved it in Demon's as it liberated them from the katana pushers, and now in Dark everyone hates it because it supposedly nullifies poise.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:57 pm

    I don't understand the goat metaphor. Goats don't seem so horrible as to compare them to a game mechanic I don't like.

    Also I don't think everyone hates it because it nullifies poise, I think that's just one person.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Emergence on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:59 pm

    Oh, "from hero to goat" is a figure of speech. If I had to guess it references the ancient scapegoat practice of sacrificing a goat to purify the wrongs of a village.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:11 pm

    Okay, that context makes it make more sense.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by User1 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:23 pm

    Sorry for the random interruption, but can you understand this?

    、あなたがこれを理解することができますを教えてください。
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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:26 pm

    No, I don't understand moon runes.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:28 pm

    I got this from google: , Please tell me you can figure this out for you.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Jansports on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:30 pm

    I think even if it did fix push locking or Mirdain... two wrongs don't make a right. Toggling is strong. So strong in fact if executed perfectly entire classes of weapons can have their movesets turned into self Backstab exercises. (I'm looking at you UGS)

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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by User1 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:31 pm

    With my actual understanding on Japanese writing, I can see that is says; Please, tell me you can understand this. I was intending to use it as a bit of a joke.
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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:38 pm

    That's why you should BS cancel with pretty much every swing of an UGS. I constantly move my back in random ways when using an UGS so the person has to guess where it is, let alone stab me through the BS cancel.

    For Large Clubs I'd say it's harder, but most people don't use clubs outside of just rolling+r1 with them.

    That's something I consider far more broken than Toggling, but I'm just hoping there isn't an animation like that in Dark Souls 2.
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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:33 pm

    Toggle escape is fine. Dead angles are fine. BS are fine (I'd prefer a narrower window though). They all add positive depth to combat. I fight how I want. How I think is fair. Winning is fun. But, I will not resort to everything to win. The journey is just as important as the end.

    IMO.


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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:33 am

    Gaming communities form the "unspokens" for a reason.

    Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

    Developers hardly ever get it perfect, like in Dark Souls.

    With that said, my DMB is going to be a griefer all the way.

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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Sasaki on Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:34 pm

    Rynn wrote:It is the developers jobs to make sure things like chainstabbing, or, as he does at the end of that video (2:06), chaining grab attacks, isn't possible.

    That is not a chain grab, it's a simple mixup. The opponent could have escaped by jumping straight up or using a reversal for instance. All of the opponents' options however carry some risks in that situation.
    Coming from the fighting game scene myself (not too hard to tell I think) I too am infected with a "playing to win" attitude. I don't really know DkS too much yet (only had a handful of PVP matches) - I still think all of the whining concerning BS fishing is kinda weird though. I recall EWGF saying in one of his vids that BS are all somehow counterable by adjusting your movement to the opponent or something. Why not just practise that then instead of whining about the tactic?
    Don't get me wrong, the community is great. I got helped out the other day with some build questions and I'm actually quite positive that there's a rather welcoming and friendly attitude around here. I'm afraid it's too widely accepted in here to rant about commonly used cheap tactics though. At least for my tastes. On SRK.COM players who are quick to blame a loss on a cheap move (not their inability to counter it) get called scrubs instantly. On said site there's even a (granted, pretty provocative) article to be read about the subject:

    http://insomnia.ac/commentary/domination_101/on_cheapness/


    Last edited by Sasaki on Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:22 pm

    For the most part duelists don't really complain about Backstabs. Duelists often know how to counter them very well. There is an issue with them in that the lag between players can result in some seriously broken stabs if the connection is that bad. But it's more so a connection issue. By that I don't mean the ones where a second delay got you killed. Those can be countered well.

    However, with the worst of connections it's possible to have an invader enter your world that you can't see. Suddenly it'll say "XXXX has invaded," then you will be instantly killed from all the damage they did to you. On their screen they invaded you, and you were just standing still. So they hit you a bunch, and suddenly when the connection stabilized you took every hit they did while you didn't even know they were in your world.

    That's an occasion where I'll say, "Okay. You died literally because of the lag. There was no possible way to counter that other than to not play online."

    Those instances are very rare though.
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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Rynn on Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:56 pm

    Sasaki wrote:
    Rynn wrote:It is the developers jobs to make sure things like chainstabbing, or, as he does at the end of that video (2:06), chaining grab attacks, isn't possible.

    That is not a chain grab, it's a simple mixup. The opponent could have escaped by jumping straight up or using a reversal for instance. All of the opponents' options however carry some risks in that situation.
    Coming from the fighting game scene myself (not too hard to tell I think) I too am infected with a "playing to win" attitude. I don't really know DkS too much yet (only had a handful of PVP matches) - I still think all of the whining concerning BS fishing is kinda weird though. I recall EWGF saying in one of his vids that BS are all somehow counterable by adjusting your movement to the opponent or something. Why not just practise that then instead of whining about the tactic?
    Don't get me wrong, the community is great. I got helped out the other day with some build questions and I'm actually quite positive that there's a rather welcoming and friendly attitude around here. I'm afraid it's too widely accepted in here to rant about commonly used cheap tactics though. At least for my tastes. On SRK.COM players like that get called scrubs instantly. On said site there's even a (granted, pretty provocative) article to be read about the subject:

    http://insomnia.ac/commentary/domination_101/on_cheapness/
    I like most of that article. It makes some sweeping statements about people I don't like though.(like claiming "It's only cheap when you win", despite how I beat 80% of the people I call cheap)
    I don't play fighting games, but what you just told me was that my the developers did do their job there: that being that even if chaining a grab attack was possible, there was a very real counter to it. It's only when the tactic being performed is uncounterable without exploiting a glitch that I feel something being done is extremely cheap: other things are just quite tactless: such as ganking, or getting stacks of 99 divine blessings. While it's possible to beat these, they so drastically increase ones probability of winning that they have similar effects on the game as the "I win" button mentioned in the article. Just grab a ton of poise, 50 vit and your divine blessings make you virtually invincible, and all you have to do to win when ganking is summoned 2 people and hide behind them: don't even attack if you're completely serious about winning, just get away from your opponent.

    Which leads me to why I find the article good... It actually addresses this stuff. It mentions how a majority of what we call cheap isn't cheap, it's just a cry of "pain" from unskilled players. Then it takes a moment to explain that sometimes, something -can- be too easy and therefor cheap, and then it goes on to explain WHY many of the things that are often called cheap are not cheap. It's sharp, and pointy, but filled with good information for those wanting to listen.

    now I'd like to address the part that made me smile the most though.

    When you claim something is "cheap", what you're really saying is that the game would be better without it. In effect, you're staking your judgment against the combined efforts of the best design team in history.
    You are DAMN RIGHT that I think Dark Souls would be a better game if Backstabs, Ganking, and The items "Divine Blessing" and "Elizabeths Mustroom" did NOT exist. These are features I'd greatly prefer not to be in the next game. They are the only things I call cheap as well.

    I find spears boring to fight against, but i do not call them cheap. I think the only one anyone could argue "That is not cheap" would be backstabs: and they would mostly be correct... Except that there is only two counters to a backstab attempt...

    1: Walk backwards, not attacking, just moving backwards.
    2: Backstab them before they backstab you.

    So I consider backstabs cheap because there is no real counterplay to them. They shouldn't be in the game with how they are implemented. I've offered many solutions on fixing that, too, none of them don't involve changing the system.

    Toggle Escape is outdated. It's an exploit that allowed one to escape an exploit.. It escaped the Katana Push trick from demons souls. Back in demons souls there was no poise, so this exploit was the only way to counter this other exploit: which in my book doesn't really make either of them fine, but it caused the exploit to become part of the strategy book on dealing with exploits.

    However, in dark souls, we have poise. Poise makes a Katana Push exploit no longer work. There is no further reason for toggle escape exploit to exist. I've used the escape before and it was precisely what one considers an exploit, it allowed me to have far more poise then I really do: which undermines the actual game mechanics. While I don't consider toggle escaping cheap, it simply shouldn't exist, as it's sole purposing is that of an exploit that doesn't add anything to the game.
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    Re: Japanese people telling it how it is.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:23 pm

    Sasaki wrote:Don't get me wrong, the community is great. I got helped out the other day with some build questions and I'm actually quite positive that there's a rather welcoming and friendly attitude around here. I'm afraid it's too widely accepted in here to rant about commonly used cheap tactics though. At least for my tastes.

    The DkS PvP community is full of great people who happen to be horrible competitors.


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