Why all the Spear Hating???

    Share

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:34 pm

    Jansports wrote:Tolvo posts best spear counter. Everyone agrees bow kiting is 100% better than spear kiting.

    Spears are so easy and unfair still waaahhhhhh wahhhhhhh

    Spears have an advantage. To say they dont is unfactual.

    A bow and arrow is not the best counter. First of all poison is a joke and not everyone carries a bow.

    Parry the tip, problem solved.

    I resent the waaaaaaaaah wahhhhhh statement.

    Besides, the best counter for a spear is a spear.

    ***EDIT***

    I may have taken the "strikethrough" statement out of context based on a later post.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
    avatar
    WyrmHero
    Lordvessel
    Lordvessel

    Posts : 8742
    Reputation : 221
    Join date : 2012-02-16
    Age : 29
    Location : The Painted World

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:39 pm

    I take out a bow, and suddenly the spearman feels out range. He starts to panic and I kite him into a bs. It's clever and effective, no skills required.


    _________________
    PSN: WyrmHero1945

    Dedicated Blade of the Darkmoon.
    Chaos Legion Str weapons covenant
    avatar
    Tolvo
    Town Crier
    Town Crier

    Posts : 13287
    Reputation : 542
    Join date : 2012-02-01
    Age : 25
    Location : The Forest, Illinois

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:43 pm

    Animal, with a Fire Bow +10 and Fire Arrows, I can hit for 300+AR on the fire side of the damage alone. I said using the damage of the arrows. Chipping a person away over a long period of time is easy through their shield. With lag you will land hits, as the only way they will hit you is if they rush you meaning they are wide open for you to either escape or roll bs/etc.

    Without Poison Arrows its still far more effective than spears and flat out broken if you ask me.

    The only point I will say that spears are more powerful than bow turtling would be against gankers. Since they can corner you and not let you get a shot off with your bow, if they are smart enough. While a spear can stunlock and harass effectively while moving back.

    I'd still say the Bow outclasses the spear in use. It's just super tedious to fight like that.

    xRamenatorx
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 278
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-03-17

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by xRamenatorx on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:52 pm

    Ramdom and offtopic a bit so sorry but anyone know how to change your user name on here? I used my gamertag and wish to change it for this sites name to Ramen.
    avatar
    The Letter X
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2613
    Reputation : 122
    Join date : 2012-09-15
    Location : Southern US

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by The Letter X on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:53 pm

    xRamenatorx wrote:Ramdom and offtopic a bit so sorry but anyone know how to change your user name on here? I used my gamertag and wish to change it for this sites name to Ramen.

    Message a moderator.

    On-Topic: Katana running R1. Never failed me against a spear user yet.


    _________________
    avatar
    Halicarnassis
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 718
    Reputation : 15
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Age : 42
    Location : Dark EngeLando!

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Halicarnassis on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:57 pm

    Well, I'm not a fan of either (spear poking or bow turtling): I like my killing up close and personal; in your face so you remember what I look like. If that means taking a hit or two to get closer to land the killing blow or try for a riposte, well then that's the chance we all take.... That's where the skill lies.


    _________________
    DMB vs SLB.. results here -  bit.ly 153iRJV
    PSN ID: Halicarnassis Twitter: @Halicarnassis
    Tweets by @Halicarnassis

    LunarFog wrote:"The Moon Pit" seems like someplace naughty I would go to see buff men swinging their junk.

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:00 pm

    @Tolvo and Wyrm

    Very good tactics for overcoming spears.

    However, the op asks the question why do spears get so much hate?

    Not everyone carries a bow. Some strength builds dont even have the stats for them.

    The simple fix (if there were to be one), is to allow them to be parried from a decent distance. But not so much that spears lose their effectiveness of range. You just shouldn't have to be as close as required.

    I hate it when a discussion about something bothering players alwaysturns into, "Everything is balanced and I'm tired of the crying".

    There are still plenty of adjustments that could make this game more balanced.

    Pyros at sl 20, or Dark Bead at sl 10.

    Spears could use an adjustment, no one is saying they want them nerfed into oblivion.

    Again, there are things imbalanced in this game and I will forever agree when they are pointed out, this being one of them.

    Actually its discussions like these that are talked about in a rational way that have probably helped shape the fighting mechanics of Dark Souls 2. I know for a fact these discussions affected the patches shortly after release. Albeit they were probably the discussions going on in the Japanese forums, but I'm sure the english speaking community had some sort of influence.
    avatar
    Tolvo
    Town Crier
    Town Crier

    Posts : 13287
    Reputation : 542
    Join date : 2012-02-01
    Age : 25
    Location : The Forest, Illinois

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:05 pm

    I'm not trying to say things shouldn't be nerfed, I don't find the game to be perfectly balanced.

    I'm also not trying to say Spears aren't powerful.

    Someone said that the only good counter to a person using a spear is to use a spear yourself, which is something I consider completely wrong. I just want people to know there is a counter.

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:15 pm

    Tolvo wrote:I'm not trying to say things shouldn't be nerfed, I don't find the game to be perfectly balanced.

    I'm also not trying to say Spears aren't powerful.

    Someone said that the only good counter to a person using a spear is to use a spear yourself, which is something I consider completely wrong. I just want people to know there is a counter.

    I wasn't implying you were saying that I apologize.

    Someone said "waaah waaah" and I took offense on the behalf of newer players.

    Your points and Wyrms were very good.

    I actually said the only counter to a spear is a spear. I shoulda said it was the easiest counter.

    Its not even the counter I use. I dont use anything mentioned actually....I'm a mage for crying outloud lol.
    avatar
    Tolvo
    Town Crier
    Town Crier

    Posts : 13287
    Reputation : 542
    Join date : 2012-02-01
    Age : 25
    Location : The Forest, Illinois

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:17 pm

    Ah alright, miscommunication corrected.

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:20 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Ah alright, miscommunication corrected.

    Thank you, again, sorry for the confusion.

    @Mages

    1) Cast HCSM

    2) Cast PW

    3) Cast HCSM again

    4) Cast Strong Magic Shield

    5) Chase them down like the hillbillies did in the movie "Deliverence" and watch them "squeal like a piggy" as you spam Black Flame in their face.

    ***For added effect, play the song "Dueling Banjos" in the background.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : shpelling)
    avatar
    Jansports
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1612
    Reputation : 86
    Join date : 2012-07-27

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Jansports on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:48 pm

    And I said what about Breakfast at Tiffany's?
    She said "I think I remember the film
    And as I recall. I think, we both kinda liked it
    And I said "well that's one thing we got"

    I love you guys so much. I just can't express myself with words very well
    avatar
    WyrmHero
    Lordvessel
    Lordvessel

    Posts : 8742
    Reputation : 221
    Join date : 2012-02-16
    Age : 29
    Location : The Painted World

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:05 pm

    @Animal It's one of the reason all my builds have some sort of spear counter. Dex builds use bows and backup spear. Str use crossbow and Demon's Spear. Tanks have 91 poise for spear spam tanking.


    _________________
    PSN: WyrmHero1945

    Dedicated Blade of the Darkmoon.
    Chaos Legion Str weapons covenant
    avatar
    Avenger649
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 262
    Reputation : 9
    Join date : 2012-10-20
    Age : 20
    Location : The chaos where all is concealed

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Avenger649 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:25 pm

    Bows aren't really an effective counter if the person has any skill at rolling and neither crossbows. Furthermore the "best" spear users don't spam, they hit you once and then ninja flip away before rinsing and repeating.
    The only counter to spears is using spears and that is well beside the point.


    _________________
    Only the fury of battle can silence the dead!

    xRamenatorx
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 278
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-03-17

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by xRamenatorx on Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:30 pm

    As The Letter X pointed out the running rb of the katana is quite effective aswell since youll do more damage in most cases. Though its not as easy as spear rb spam and takes timing.

    Also turtling with a rapier is good tactic to counter spears and setup parries/backstabs
    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:10 pm

    Because, as rynn said, there is just nothing to do about the spear. It requres a much larger error on the part of the user than other weapons for a counter to present its self (especially with suplimental magic.) They can also stack poise and use the leo ring to virtually garunte they win any r1 spam contest, should it come to that, landing 3 hits for every 1 or 2 of all but the fastest weapons. This tactic can rack up in excess of 1500 damage before the spear user is stunned, and they'll take maybe 700 damage during the exchange.

    Edit: these errors can be engineered by a clever opponent, meaning skill is still a very relivant factor, but even mediocre players with spears are a serious threat to even the best players, which isn't the case with other weapon classes.


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.
    avatar
    Seignar
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1206
    Reputation : 106
    Join date : 2012-08-07

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Seignar on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:05 pm

    I think people are forgetting a very important detail regarding Spear counters:

    What counters a Spear?

    Bows
    Katanas

    What else?
    Oh yeah, I see...we have 2 counters (which aren't even weapon per say, but rather a very specific move belonging to the weapons) for 1 weapon; everything else is a fail.

    Any decent Spear user will hit once and roll away to await the next opportunity. Anyone skilled enough (and smart enough) to put on DWGR and spam regen only requires 1/3 of the skill the typical player needs to win. The only "realiable" build that can beat it is a Tank Mage, or otherwise you resort to TWoP as the absolute counter (It also being the absolute counter to all non-tank builds).


    xRamenatorx
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 278
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-03-17

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by xRamenatorx on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:21 pm

    @Seignar Twop can be outran and the spear user my also use sorceries aswell; though in this case itd be a battle of sorceries in the middle of twop so yes the spears range would be ineffective if caught

    Also why is a tank mage the ONLY reliable build? Can the tank fast roll? Are the spells an absolute hit or something? Just want to know the secret and why its the only reliable one haha
    avatar
    Seignar
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1206
    Reputation : 106
    Join date : 2012-08-07

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Seignar on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:38 pm

    Certainly, my fellow forumite:

    The Spear has 2 particular advantages: Its range and its recovery. With this, you face 2 challenges: Getting within range and getting a hit. The best way to get a hit is by trading (hence, the Tank part); best way to get in range, Magic, Bows or Crossbows. However, only Magic is ever really fast (and strong) enough to warrant using since a Spear will most likely hit harder (on top of counter damage) in comparison to Bows and Crossbows. In addition, a Bow requires both hands and its start-up frames are too easily noticeable and long (enough for a dodge), leaving the user at a disadvantage (and it can be poked through, as opposed to magic [which you can, but the chip damage will make you think again...).

    Also, despite a Crossbow doesn't suffer 2H weakness, it has a long recovery frame and suffers from the poking strategy as well as being more punishable by faints. Magic has the opportunity of not suffering from recovery (being as fast as a Bow), while not giving you a 2H weakness. On top of the fact it is the only method that can actually deal high chip damage and break guards.

    Also, sorry to say, but I think many people seriously underestimate the capabilities of Medium-rolling. Mobility is not something that will grant you the upper hand against a Spear-user since said user is already at the highest mobility; you must be waiting for them to come to you.

    Your point on TWoP is well pointed-out. Although, in one case, with the Stone Greatsword, any STR build could actually activate TWoP quickly and maintain it for a long time, but it is a particularly noticeable strategy due to the weapon. Aside, the weapon brings in a large mobility penalty (Medium roll is good, Fat Roll is a big no as you'll be the target of pressure too easily) and is practically deadweight if you abuse the special too much.

    On a Tank Mage, while the spells are not a guaranteed hit (nothing is), they offer much greater pay off than any other means. Also, in the likeliness of a trade (To perform a successful trade, you must first notice the patterns) your chances of landing a spell are much greater.


    xRamenatorx
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 278
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-03-17

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by xRamenatorx on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:54 pm

    I see. Your response was well thought out haha. Though to get melee hits in on a good spear user, even with a tank build, you need a decent weapon. If the soear dudes strategy is indeed hit and run and they use the full range of the spear the medium spear might be to slow; so short ranged weapons would still be extremely difficult to use. So youd need something with a thrust....like a katana xD

    But yea i get your point on the effectivness of a tank mage especially against spear users.

    Though one last thing haha if they also have magic youll be at a disadvantage because of the sliwer recover time of the medium roll after dodging magic which will let the spear user (with proper timing) land a few bliws on your recovery. But again very nice, informative comment haha

    xRamenatorx
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 278
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-03-17

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by xRamenatorx on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:55 pm

    *the medium roll might be to slow (not medium spear...phone typo in first paragraph)

    xRamenatorx
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 278
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-03-17

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by xRamenatorx on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:56 pm

    *the medium speed....haha sorry
    avatar
    sparkly-twinkly-lizard
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3627
    Reputation : 144
    Join date : 2012-01-19
    Age : 23
    Location : World 4-2 Demon Souls

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:53 pm



    _________________
    ლ(ಠ_ಠლ) (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    avatar
    Dark Spirit EliteBiker20
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 347
    Reputation : -4
    Join date : 2012-04-11
    Age : 26
    Location : Pennsylvania

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Dark Spirit EliteBiker20 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:06 pm

    Halicarnassis wrote:Well, I'm not a fan of either (spear poking or bow turtling): I like my killing up close and personal; in your face so you remember what I look like. If that means taking a hit or two to get closer to land the killing blow or try for a riposte, well then that's the chance we all take.... That's where the skill lies.

    I never Spear Poke people. I rush at them two handing the thing, basically letting all of my defenses down. Plus, I am wearing really light armor and can be stun-locked very easily, so I dont see how my setup should be complained about.

    But by what I have been reading, your basically saying people shouldnt use spears because they are really good and hard to beat?
    Isnt that the whole point of games like this, to find what weapon works best for you and use it? What would be the point of trying to win a battle with horrible weapons just because the community finds things unfair? I know it has to do with honorable dueling or whatever people call it, but it just makes no sense.

    avatar
    Seignar
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1206
    Reputation : 106
    Join date : 2012-08-07

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Seignar on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:08 pm

    Fat Roll has some problems with regards against Spear users. For one, you're out-ranged and now out-mobilized significantly. No amount of skill will get you to close the distance and those rolls won't help you at all. A Spear user has just enough range to poke you...and enough to backstab you if you try the Stone Greatsword.

    Normally, medium roll doesn't have a big as a problem, since they can move faster, a Spear user will go a farther distance from you to compensate for the speed in which you can close it. A fat roll doesn't have said advantages and as such is within their range at all times.

    But by what I have been reading, your basically saying people shouldnt use spears because they are really good and hard to beat?
    It is actually because a Spear proves an annoying and undesirable battle. Ragna the Bloodedge is pretty much top-tier and everyone agrees. Yet, I'm sure plenty of people don't use him because it gets boring to have to use him and fight him so much.


    Last edited by Seignar on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total


    Sponsored content

    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:27 am