Why all the Spear Hating???

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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:26 am

    When From nerfs things, people just find something new to use.
    They nerfed elementals- people made +15 builds
    They nerfed DWGR- people made END builds
    They nerfed greatswords- people started using curved greatswords
    They nerfed family masks- people began min/maxing
    They nerfed Crystal Ring Shield- MLGS all day
    And now spears?


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by densetsushun on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:33 am

    All of your points are actually just improvements.
    Dibsville wrote:
    They nerfed elementals- people made +15 builds
    People started maxing damage by pumping the right points.
    Dibsville wrote:
    They nerfed DWGR- people made END builds
    More points people need to pump, which means less for other stuff if you wanna stay at the PvP meta. It also meant a wiser choice of armor to get to your optimal min/maxing.
    Dibsville wrote:
    They nerfed greatswords- people started using curved greatswords
    People started exploring more weapons.
    Dibsville wrote:
    They nerfed family masks- people began min/maxing
    People had to min/max their armor better.
    Dibsville wrote:
    They nerfed Crystal Ring Shield- MLGS all day
    People started using actual weapons instead of crystal shield spamming. Granted, they could've at least made Crystal Ring Shield scale with int yet have absurdly low base damage.


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:40 am

    densetsushun wrote:All of your points are actually just improvements.
    Dibsville wrote:
    They nerfed elementals- people made +15 builds
    People started maxing damage by pumping the right points.
    Dibsville wrote:
    They nerfed DWGR- people made END builds
    More points people need to pump, which means less for other stuff if you wanna stay at the PvP meta. It also meant a wiser choice of armor to get to your optimal min/maxing.
    Dibsville wrote:
    They nerfed greatswords- people started using curved greatswords
    People started exploring more weapons.
    Dibsville wrote:
    They nerfed family masks- people began min/maxing
    People had to min/max their armor better.
    Dibsville wrote:
    They nerfed Crystal Ring Shield- MLGS all day
    People started using actual weapons instead of crystal shield spamming. Granted, they could've at least made Crystal Ring Shield scale with int yet have absurdly low base damage.
    Yes, they all have good points, but these are things that people did when they were nerfed. They simply found a way around the nerf, instead of finding something else to do. Curved Greatswords stunlock like a *****, +15s are just buffed with DMB or CMW, high endurance meant more armor, min/maxing was easy with the use of lower weapons. (Zweihander only takes 16 STR and 10 DEX, you can use it from SL 7 and from there just max out anything you want). Crystal Ring Shield was just replaced with MLGS, still overpowered, still has long range R2s, the only difference is that MLGS can backstab and parry, CRS couldn't. All the nerfs are worked around to still make things overpowered. Look at a Spear user with DWGR, they flip around and use the rolling R1 whenever you are open.


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:40 am

    Just get into spear users face and as soon as he presses that R1 just tank bs him. Unless he uses DWGR, he won't be able to get away from you, unless you let him. Spears are weak if you take away their range like this.

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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:43 am

    I've played a lot of PVP games over the years and you've no idea how many times i've read the exact same. People start to use a weapon and essentially everyone's using it, yeah they might nerf spears, i imagine slowing the speed but someone will find something else. Just pray they don't do a dice, nerf something boost another weapon and make it super op.

    Always reminds me of my mate whinging on teamspeak because i got him with the noob M16(not in dark souls), over the next hour i proceeded to kill him with 47 different weapons to piss him off.


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:45 am

    Eventually they're going to make Dark Souls unplayable at the rate they're nerfing things, nothing has any power anymore, which was a major point in Dark Souls, no one said PvP was easy.


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:48 am

    I actually fine with things not having a lot of power outside of glass cannon builds.

    I remember the DWGR nerf and while it was good for PvP, the nerf was even better for PvE. I had to remember how to actually dodge again. The lack of an easy way out made me better at PvE, and PvP as well I feel.

    Dark Souls is not a game about feeling powerful in my book. It's about challenging yourself.
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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:00 pm

    Tolvo wrote:I actually fine with things not having a lot of power outside of glass cannon builds.

    I remember the DWGR nerf and while it was good for PvP, the nerf was even better for PvE. I had to remember how to actually dodge again. The lack of an easy way out made me better at PvE, and PvP as well I feel.

    Dark Souls is not a game about feeling powerful in my book. It's about challenging yourself.
    Beat the game with this a few days ago http://mmdks.com/1icd


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:22 pm

    I've done low level avarice runs, but I always give up eventually. It's not for the reason I imagined either.

    I always go AFK at bonfires, with that on. Then come back to see all of my souls and humanity gone, then rage quit. Every time taking that symbol off slips my mind, it happens a lot when I farm souls and equipment too.
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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by lordgodofhell on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:28 pm

    I never had a problem with spears. When I say 'never had a problem' what I mean is I never was against others using them.

    Until recently the melee player I had the hardest time defeating was the dead angle curved greatsword user and the delayed spam curved sword spammer. I now find these two easier to deal with after many, many duels.

    The spear is one I didn't see much in pvp. Like random invasions or even set up duels people seem to prefer either katanas or str weps.

    "Kiting" can be an annoyance to deal with. However, many of the long time skilled users on this forum have put forth a variety of ways to defeat said tactic. See the bazillion other threads about this topic for more.


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by bob90 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:54 pm

    Dibsville wrote:When From nerfs things, people just find something new to use.
    They nerfed elementals- people made +15 builds
    They nerfed DWGR- people made END builds
    They nerfed greatswords- people started using curved greatswords
    They nerfed family masks- people began min/maxing
    They nerfed Crystal Ring Shield- MLGS all day
    And now spears?
    lol i had to laugh after reading ur post so funny. i know its annoying but i had to laugh!

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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by xRamenatorx on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:07 pm

    The spears the they are now are indeed an "easy mode". A spear player can be beat especially if the person isnt that good; however a good pvper will barely give you the chance to counter

    I suggest a slower spead for the rb/r1 and/or take away the ability to attack from behind the shield. The spear already has the over powering ability of range, not to mention speed, so why give it a turtle option. This should be left for rapier class weapons.
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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:15 pm

    It's because they're so easy and effective to use. To beat a spear you don't have to be skillful, but clever.


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by bob90 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:19 pm

    Ramenator thats all normal for spears u just want take out something that u cant handle or not like . I still seen few cowards using spell glitch on a stone sword etc. Thats wat needs get fixed.

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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by xRamenatorx on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:24 pm

    No. I was suggesting solutions to the problems that people see in spears on this thread and others...terd. Not saying im some elitist, but i hardly lose pvp matches; that includes spear users.

    Also the topics on spears not spell glitch on a stone sword.

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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:26 pm

    Spears are dumb because you can't parry the tip. If you could do that they'd be fine.
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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Rynn on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:32 pm

    http://www.twitch.tv/flickerflare
    Btw, if anyone cared to see why I think spears are bad.
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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by LunarFog on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:33 pm

    All I'm going to sayfor now is that if they nerf spears, they better nerf the soul spears too. If my babies are getting nerfed to hell then I at least want some sort of compensation for their suffering.


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by xRamenatorx on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:35 pm

    @Animaaal Agreed.

    Also in my earlier post i was saying the spears rb shouod be slower because that would not only make it more fair for some i geuss but require more skill/timing from the spear user. No more spams after an enemy rolls haha
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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by wahwah on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:39 pm

    Rynn wrote:No, I told you why everyone hates spears.
    They are stupid and annoying to fight against, if you want some specific, I'll give them.

    Assuming you light roll, you have enough mobility to keep your opponent at the edge of your range 100% of the time. You're far enough away that due to your range, no weapon except another spear is capable of reaching you to kill you. This is made worse by how lag give you a larger hitbox with a spear than otherwise, and you can block your with shield to turtle if deemed neccesary, making you even more difficult to reach/fight. Your opponent has no way of injuring you without being injured themself, and due to the damage rating of the Dragonslayer Spear, the trade they have to take for an opportunity (that they can miss) to hurt you is a lose-lose situation. Unless they are holding a rapier or a spear, from the moment they spawn to the moment they die there is no reasonable way for them to win unless you make a very fatal mistake.

    That is why spears are hated.

    And dutchy, you're dead wrong with that idealistic statement. Some weapons ARE easier to use then others.

    spears are somewhat easy to use, but u need decent skill to make a spear viable in pvp.
    spear wielders are easy and predictable mostly, and a few of them have the patience to hide behind their shield and poke for long. and when a spear wielder gets eger they are so easy to kill.
    alot of other weapons are easier to use than spears, so lets hate them aswell cheers
    like katanas/curved swords, thats weapons it takes 0 skill to use......
    thats my opinion atleast happy
    if u just stay calm and be a little more patient than the spear wielder u win 99% of the time, while they are poking and flipping around, use a bow, xbow firebombs etc.
    i think spear wielders are easier kill than mages lol
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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:46 pm

    Spears often have twice the range they appear to have in pvp. And, you can sometimes watch a spear miss by 4 feet and take damage. It's quite annoying. Poise stabbing works if everything goes your way. You have to hope you don't get killed or stunned before you get their back due to phantom range hits and your opponent has to be dense enough to stand there continually spamming R1. I had a fight once where it was like my opponent's controller was a voodoo doll -- hit R1, do damage. I had to stand on the opposite side of the fighting area in the burg to not get hit.

    Also, what animal said.


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:54 pm

    xRamenatorx wrote:@Animaaal Agreed.

    Also in my earlier post i was saying the spears rb shouod be slower because that would not only make it more fair for some i geuss but require more skill/timing from the spear user. No more spams after an enemy rolls haha

    That would work too.

    Spear and DWGR make for one of the most boring fights possible.

    If they would just increase stamina consumption or extend the parry window or slow them down like Ramne says, they'd be fine.

    However, they'll prolly nerf em so that they all weigh 50lbs, you can parry them from 50ft away, and make them slower than UGS...

    ...so keep em the way they are, just keep them out of fight clubs and events.

    ***The only thing about spears I can say is positive is that outside of the Partizan, its almost immpossible to dead angle with them.

    That should be considered as well.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by swordiris on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:55 pm

    LunarFog wrote:All I'm going to sayfor now is that if they nerf spears, they better nerf the soul spears too. If my babies are getting nerfed to hell then I at least want some sort of compensation for their suffering.

    Better not nerf soul spears, those things need buffed so they are harder to dodge. (even if that means less damage).

    As for my opinion on spears, I never got mad at spear users.


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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Jansports on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:29 pm

    Tolvo posts best spear counter. Everyone agrees bow kiting is 100% better than spear kiting.

    Spears are so easy and unfair still waaahhhhhh wahhhhhhh
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    Re: Why all the Spear Hating???

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:30 pm

    Well technically, if they dodge 999 of every kind of arrow I have and I run out, while they have a spear. Suddenly they will have the advantage.

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