Wolf vs Havels

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    billionthswine187
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    Wolf vs Havels

    Post by billionthswine187 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:19 am

    I've been thinking this for awhile, so I thought of bringing it here and see what other people thought. I have two different characters; one that uses havels for more weight and use some heavier armour, and another that uses wolf for more poise. Now each may have they're own upside but I wanna see what other people thought on this. I see that wolfs while it does give more poise but less armour, where as havels allows you to have more armour but less poise. I have also noticed that I roll slower with havels I'm not really sure why that is, since I thought roll speed was about the percentage not the actual armour (yes I have less than 25% weight on both characters).
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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:25 am

    There's like 8 "different" fast roll speeds. Seems difficult to believe but there does exist footage.

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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by billionthswine187 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:26 am

    Ya I knew there was different roll speeds but I thought they were all percentage not by actual weight, or armour.
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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:29 am

    Depends on the poise breakpoint and roll speed you are aiming to. If you can meet both with Havel's then it's better because of higher defense. I usually run Wolf+FAP though.


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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by billionthswine187 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:34 am

    Does anyone have a link to a good video on the roll break downs so I can understand all 8.


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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:40 am


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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by mugenis4real on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:40 am

    In my opinion Wolf is always better than Havel's unless your just trying to carry more firepower instead of poise.
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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:53 am

    Yeah you got the defense vs. poise thing right as a general rule. IMO Havel's is worth taking if you have a lot of spare stat points and can easily reach 50 or so vitality while still getting the endurance to reach your desired poise breakpoint. Meanwhile Wolf is better if you're strained for stat points and can't really spare the points in endurance to hit a higher breakpoint.

    Also there are I think 14 different roll speeds and they are based on the percentage of your carry weight.


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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by billionthswine187 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:31 am

    Ya that video didn't really help explain why one of my character rolls slower than the other since they both sit at 24.9% of equipment load and I see a visible difference in roll speed.

    Yeah you got the defense vs. poise thing right as a general rule. IMO Havel's is worth taking if you have a lot of spare stat points and can easily reach 50 or so vitality while still getting the endurance to reach your desired poise breakpoint. Meanwhile Wolf is better if you're strained for stat points and can't really spare the points in endurance to hit a higher breakpoint.
    I definitely agree with this and that was kinda how I built the two characters, since one is a mage and the other is a quality. I mainly just wanted to see if it was really worth dropping either ring for more of a uniform decision but it seems its just comes down to how the character was built in the beginning.


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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:40 am

    I'd love to know how the principles in that video effect DWGR. Both in speed and i-frames.
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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:08 am

    DWGR has 14 i-frames and 8 recovery frames at 25% roll speed. For each step down, you have one less recovery frame. So at 16.7%, DWGR has 14/7. Then 14/6 at 8.3% and finally 14/5 at 0%. Fast Roll is the same, but starts as 12/12 and gets down to 12/9. Mid-roll IIRC is 12/20 through 12/18. There's no mid-roll equivalent to 0%, so it only has 3 values instead of 4. Don't know about fat roll.


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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:17 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:DWGR has 14 i-frames and 8 recovery frames at 25% roll speed. For each step down, you have one less recovery frame. So at 16.7%, DWGR has 14/7. Then 14/6 at 8.3% and finally 14/5 at 0%. Fast Roll is the same, but starts as 12/12 and gets down to 12/9. Mid-roll IIRC is 12/20 through 12/18. There's no mid-roll equivalent to 0%, so it only has 3 values instead of 4. Don't know about fat roll.

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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:44 am

    Using Havel's Ring to wear heavy armor to get high Poise has one downside and that is the slower Stamina recovery. Heavy armor makes Stamina recovery slower. The amount of recovery speed decrease depends on the selected armor. You can see mugen for further references on each armor parts recovery penalty. So if I can achieve the same Poise with Wolf Ring, it's better to use that imo, because my Stamina will recover at it's natural rate.

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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Sneezer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:14 am

    In my experience with both the rings on my strength build, it depends on what weapons you want to use. Sometimes you'll need Havel's in order to get your desired weapon and acceptable poise, because without it, you could have as little as 3 points of weight to put into armor, which is just dreadful.
    For me, Havel's gets use when I want to fast roll with my 14 weight+ weapons, and I usually get 31 or so poise, but when I use my handaxe demon's spear combo, the Wolf Ring is much more suitable, ending me up with 56 poise.
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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Rynn on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:06 pm

    yesterday while streaming I ended up selecting Wolf Ring over Havels despite how it caused me to medium roll.
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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by ChillerHR on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:59 pm

    Sentiel wrote:Using Havel's Ring to wear heavy armor to get high Poise has one downside and that is the slower Stamina recovery. Heavy armor makes Stamina recovery slower. The amount of recovery speed decrease depends on the selected armor. You can see mugen for further references on each armor parts recovery penalty. So if I can achieve the same Poise with Wolf Ring, it's better to use that imo, because my Stamina will recover at it's natural rate.


    Senty what's poise breakpoint?

    Go literate...do not one sentence answer me... happy


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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:06 pm

    ChillerHR wrote:Senty what's poise breakpoint?

    Go literate...do not one sentence answer me... happy
    Poise Break Points
    Please note that some weapons do not obey this. E.g. the hand axe does not break 21 poise.
    It has been found that certain weapon classes will stun people at very specific poise amounts. For example Ultra Greatswords, when used 2 handed, will stun anyone at 75 poise or less. So a poise of 76 will prevent you being stunlocked by a hit from an UGS. However these values will only save you from 1 hit. If you are hit again before your "poise bar" empties completely you will be stunned. The values listed are for 2 handed attacks, the values in the brackets refer to 1 handed attacks.

    76 poise (51 for 1-handed resists):
    All Ultra Greatswords 2h R1s
    All Great Axes 2h R1s
    All Great Blunt 2h R1s

    53 poise (36 for 1-handed resists):
    All Curved Greatsword 2h R1s
    All Greatswords 2h R1s
    All 1-handed Blunts 2h R1s
    All 1-handed Axes 2h R1s

    45 poise
    Black Knight Halberd 2h R1 (confirmed by Devokai)

    31 poise (21 for 1-handed resists or fist weapons (confirmed)):
    All Asian Sword 2h R1s (and R2 in the case of Shotel)
    All 1-handed Sword 2h R1s
    All Katana 2h R1s (including Washing Pole)
    All Great Scythe 2h R1/R2s
    All Whip 2h R1s
    All Large Spear (Partisan/Pike) 2h R1s
    All Small Spear (Silver Spear/Winged Spear) 2h R1s
    All Halberd/Pole 2h R1s (figured this would have been 53, but it wasn't). (Black Knight Halberd 1h R1, confirmed by Devokai)

    8 poise (6 poise for 1-hand resists)
    All Rapier 2h R1s

    Source:
    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Poise


    Last edited by Sentiel on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Rynn on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:07 pm

    Poise Breakpoint are magic numbers in PvP that make you not get stunned.
    They are 5, 11, 17, 31, 36, 53, 56, and 77.

    These are numbers numbers where particular weapons won't stun you. The most popular being 53 for two handed greatsword and curved greatsword swings.

    61 is also a poise breakpoint for Black Combustion.
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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:12 pm

    Rynn

    There's another Poise breakpoint.
    62.

    It's what I currently use in order to tank Black Flame.
    Some claim it dels 60 Poise damage while some say it does 61 Poise. So I pack 62 just to be safe.

    Once people will settle on one of the numbers for Black Flame Poise damage I guess that it will get vastly used as the most popular Poise Breakpoint.

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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by Rynn on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:25 pm

    Sentiel wrote:Rynn

    There's another Poise breakpoint.
    62.

    It's what I currently use in order to tank Black Flame.
    Some claim it dels 60 Poise damage while some say it does 61 Poise. So I pack 62 just to be safe.

    Once people will settle on one of the numbers for Black Flame Poise damage I guess that it will get vastly used as the most popular Poise Breakpoint.
    It already is used by gankers.
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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by ChillerHR on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:56 pm

    Tnx guys!
    happy


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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by WandererReece on Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:19 pm

    I use both wolf and havels for a whoping 161 poise! It's not very practical, but it's great when your doing nothing but spaming Dark Hand. Once I drained the host 4 times in a row before dying. I sent him a message asking who won. lol!


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    Re: Wolf vs Havels

    Post by billionthswine187 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:10 am

    Thanks everyone for you input especially for the poise breakdown. I definitely see a bigger difference between wolf and havel.


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