Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

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    Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

    Post by Sneezer on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:01 pm

    As I'm sure you all know, each stat hits a plateau when a certain level is reached, the returns you get from further stat increases cease to be worthwhile.
    My question is; do you think that builds would be more diverse and interesting if there was no decline in worth to stat increases? Or are the possible imbalance issues not worth the extra potential?
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    Re: Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

    Post by The Letter X on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:06 pm

    I was thinking about this myself a short while ago. I'm inclined to say that no diminishing returns would increase variety in builds since people might actually go for more than 40 in their scaling stat or Endurance.
    This can cause people to use different armor/weapon combos while maintaining their intended roll speed.

    I can't back this up, however. Just a hunch.

    There's also the problem in knowing where to set the appropriate dueling levels. Without diminishing returns how would we pick a point to stop? We can always stick with the 120 range but that might bring in even more problems if there are no DTs.


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    Re: Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

    Post by Rynn on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:31 pm

    At first glance, this looks like a good idea, but it's not because the system would be differently set up otherwise.

    In this system, we get 80% of a stats value in the first 50 points, and 20-25% in the last 40 points. This is a PvE decision designed so that players can be strong enough to get through the content. If there was no diminishing returns, the developers would likely keep the same final value for 99 that we have now... but you'd no longer get 80% of the value in those first 40 points, which would either force enemies to have to be weaker (making the game easier) or would force players to be weaker in the PvE portion of the game, which is more important.


    Diminishing returns allow FROM to set up a good early game experience while still permitting players the ability to improve their abilities for months on end if so desired. Also, keeping in mind that From likely didn't anticipate us forcing a level 120 (less then 1/7th of all possible levels) cap, they were likely trying to avoid an inevitable situation for a darkwraith, where they lose the battle purely because they were level 100, and the level 300 character was three times stronger due to there not being diminishing returns. The in place system garentee's that while that level 300 character is stronger then the level 100, it's not by an unbeatable margin, and as such skill remains relevant to the PvP metagame.
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    Re: Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

    Post by Sneezer on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:38 pm

    Customization potential and individuality increase, but that meta game for both PVE and PVP would most likely suffer. Interesting points.
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    Re: Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:20 pm

    I think it would actually decrease variety far more. Certain builds, spells and weapons are limited only by limiting returns. It would also make the make the system of scaling mute because the higher scaling weapons with low base stats either be superior at every level or inferior at every level compared to lower scaling weapons. Finally, it would let focused characters gain an extremely offensive power-quite possibly enough to outright one-shot anyone with only one very high stat and fairly good others, instead of having to devote one's entire setup to it. Diminishing returns actually helps variety because it's a balancer.


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    Re: Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

    Post by The Letter X on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:24 pm

    What if removing diminishing returns made Resistance useful, causing tank-like characters to be even more viable? silly


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    Re: Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:28 pm

    Considering that Souls is much more realistic than most video games regarding how much damage a human body can take, (very few hits from these weapons) the amount of damage that Resistance reduces will never be enough to make it useful unless the characters just turn into regular video game meatsuits.


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    Re: Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

    Post by The Letter X on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:37 pm

    The point of it would be for more build variety, not necessarily realism.


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    Re: Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:50 pm

    Ah, I stated that poorly. I'm saying that because the damage is so high compared to hp in the Souls games that the tiny reduction that Resistance could offer will still be pointless unless all damage was either greatly nerfed or hp greatly boosted. Either will drastically reduce the difficulty, atmosphere and realism of the series.


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    Re: Do Diminishing Returns Limit Customizability?

    Post by Rynn on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:55 pm

    but have you ever looked at the effectiveness of resistance?

    Check this out.
    28 levels.
    http://mmdks.com/1e47
    28 resistance levels
    http://mmdks.com/1e48

    That's a large stat difference, the problem is resistance is hit by diminishing returns 3 times.

    1: Higher your armor rating from even armor, the less resistances do.
    2: Each humanity you use is counted as a point of resistance
    3: After 40 resistance you get hit with normal diminishing returns.

    If none of these existed, 99 resistance would be an extra 150 physical resistance. that is a lot of *** damage.

    EDIT: Actually 4 times. Leveling up also gives extra defense, which counts against resistance.

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