Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

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    If you had the choice to take backstabs out of the game, would you?

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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:30 pm

    I'm gonna go ahead and vote yes, but only because I think they should be taken out of PvP. If they took it out of PvE I'd have a problem, but PvP without backstabs seems fine to me. Except for daggers, those need to keep the ability to backstab or else they would be beyond pointless, and if it's only daggers that can backstab, we'll be pretty well informed as to a guy's strategy when he invades in full Havels with MoM...weilding a Bandit's Knife winking


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Pargar-theGreat on Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:53 am

    i run around with 15 poise and no shield i can't complain about bs


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Bito on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:45 am

    Remove Backstab = No
    backstab is the only way you can survive 3v1 Fight
    and its part of the game

    BUT
    make the Hitbox smaller
    reducing Critical Hit big weapon
    more invincibility after backstab so chain backstab is impossible
    remove Hornet Ring big grin

    IMO big grin


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Midgar on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:48 am

    Bito wrote:Remove Backstab = No
    backstab is the only way you can survive 3v1 Fight
    and its part of the game

    BUT
    make the Hitbox smaller
    reducing Critical Hit big weapon
    more invincibility after backstab so chain backstab is impossible
    remove Hornet Ring big grin

    IMO big grin

    I like this guys ideas even though it won't happen but yeah, lol.

    Edit: Also it's a pet peeve of mine when people use IMO, we already know you're stating your opinion. If you use it again I'll shank you with my squirrely wrath ^_^


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Artorias on Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:09 pm

    i wrote this before and ill write it again, Back stabbing is not cheap, infact nothing in the game is cheap, not even twop. People have a habit of calling everything they lose against "cheap". Personally i bow before and after every fight, you can chose to bow or not, you can also chose to attack others when they bow. You paid for the game and you can play it how you like! We are also forgetting that pvp community makes up about 10% of the dks community removing it would be unfair on the pve players. silly
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:18 pm

    Artorias wrote:i wrote this before and ill write it again, Back stabbing is not cheap, infact nothing in the game is cheap, not even twop. People have a habit of calling everything they lose against "cheap". Personally i bow before and after every fight, you can chose to bow or not, you can also chose to attack others when they bow. You paid for the game and you can play it how you like! We are also forgetting that pvp community makes up about 10% of the dks community removing it would be unfair on the pve players. silly

    There are some clear definitions as to what makes something a cheap tactic or not, and while there are whiners who will complain that some things are cheap simply because they lose to those mechanics alot, there are in fact some mechanics that can legitimately be gamebreaking. Something will only be cheap if:

    1. It outclasses every other mechanic with a similar purpose to the point of non-viability.
    2. The only way to effectively counter the mechanic is to use the mechanic yourself.

    RoF was the only choice if you wanted to play a stealth character, outclassing things like the Slumbering Dragoncrest Ring and Hidden Body. The Crystal Ring Shield was the most effective way of dealing with 90% of the game's bosses regardless of your character's build. The only way to consistently counter TWoP was to use TWoP. Those mechanics were cheap, and were nerfed to prevent them from staying as such. Were they overnerfed? Of course, but they were still by and far much too effective of mechanics beforehand. Before anyone counters with an argument of greater player skill and learning to work around it, I will say that those arguments are invalid in terms of game balance. Player skill is not a mechanic, and just because a player of greater skill can work around cheap mechanics and win against a less skilled player, doesn't change the mechanics themselves from a balance perspective. In a top-tier match between expert players where a cheap mechanic is not banned, the player who uses said mechanic will have the advantage over the one who doesn't.

    This all being said, I agree backstabs are not a cheap mechanic. There are plenty of viable ways to fight besides backstab-fishing, and they have a multitude of counters. The only reason they are poisonous right now in the PvP scene is because of lag, which is something outside of the developer's control and so will not be going away. It is because of this that I feel removing backstabs, or at least severely hurting their effectiveness on anything but daggers in a PvP setting would make PvP more enjoyable. I believe that things like the old "shield on your back to reduce backstab damage," or the ideas mentioned here of reducing the hitbox and critical damage proportionately to weapon size would be beneficial for a player's enjoyment of PvP, without affecting PvE players.

    Forgive me for my rant here, but it's a really hot button with me when people say "nothing is cheap," especially when they lump all claims of things being cheap with the whiners who say it just because they lose to certain things. This game still has a long way to go before being balanced.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Artorias on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:25 pm

    Twop does not affect weapon swing speed so twop users can be killed and using twop leaves you open for a couple of secs and then you can bs them. the only situation where this wont work is a 3v1 but still its not twop thats "cheap" its the players same applies for everything else that people call cheap. its not the item/wep/spell thats cheap its the player that uses it thats cheap.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:32 pm

    So having a 2 second casting time is enough balancing to offset forcing your opponent into an aggressive fighting style that leaves them open for almost free backstabs and removing their ability to dodge? I don't see the logic honestly :|


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Artorias on Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:02 pm

    2 seconds?? i thought it was like 5 or 7 :|
    and css their face if i see them casting it silly


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Skinless on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:35 am

    Voted yes. It is WAY too cheap right now.
    Or atleast limit it only to daggers and if you have shield on your back you cant be bs`ed. so simple. cheers And the damage could be made smaller also. like makes only bleed damage if the weapon has bleed, a poison one would toxin you etc.
    idk what has failed with the backstab from demons souls, there it was not a problem. those few hours I pvped there I usually got bs only when I was staggered or recovering from a swing, normal things. and If I got somehow "laggstabbed" in a middle of a roll it did no damage.

    how do you know if FROM reads this topic? wouldnt it be better to have a similar thread on their forum?
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:43 am

    Main difference: demons has servers. Its really that simple. Theres not really a good way to fix it AND nerfing backstabs would make killing farmers neigh impossible.

    A more constructive use of your time would be to send from an email stating that their next souls game needs servers to prevent these issues and encouraging others to do the same.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Yukon on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:56 am

    I think that makes about 3 times this week I had to rep you up for being so damn logical pirate, stop that.

    I am really shocked to see the quite tight votes in this thread, I cannot imagine a souls game without backstabbing, its just something that defines the series for me. In both demons and dark there were lagstabbs it's true, but I never felt like it was gamebreaking. I am just shocked at how many players in this successor are ready to throw out game mechanics in a game designed to be punishing.
    You shouldn't be rewarded for exposing yourself or being slow reacting to a spell like twop, I can understand about 70% of my backstabs are due to me being a retard and swinging at a poise-fisher prematurely or just missing in general.

    One thing is so different between dark and demons and that is that you arent playing within regions anymore. A lot of the time if I get lagstabbed and I look at the stabber his language is japanese. Well, no wonder... From just took too big a bite in my opinion but I've never felt like my game was ruined because of that I applaud them for taking some nice innovative risks from the demons souls set up and I hope they continue to experiment with all their equipment because that is what is keeping me playing.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:09 am

    See, I do think there is an issue involving Backstabs, but Backstabs aren't the real problem. It would kind of be like a person of group X comitting a crime, so you jail everyone of group X. Now that I've gotten my ridiculous exagerated comparison out of the way as is obligatory to any debate, I just think removing the BS is taking things in the wrong direction. Now, connection between players is the issue if you ask me. Something I think maybe From could have a tiny bit of help in with the current system maybe maximizing efficiency, but it would boil down to how everyone's PSN connection is fairing. You know what are terrible? Lagstabs. You know what are useful? Backstabs. Why remove backstabs if the issue is lagstabs? That's my simple view on it.

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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Midgar on Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:16 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Main difference: demons has servers. Its really that simple. Theres not really a good way to fix it AND nerfing backstabs would make killing farmers neigh impossible.

    A more constructive use of your time would be to send from an email stating that their next souls game needs servers to prevent these issues and encouraging others to do the same.

    I honestly don't find backstabbing all that useful in a situation where you are outnumbered 1 on 3, you could just as easily get backstabbed attempting to go for one. Even if you do pull one off it's unlikely it'll be a one shot kill unless you have hornets and they have awful armor. The way I generally win outnumbered are using the mobs and knocking people off cliffs(Dragonslayer Bow, WoG, Tempest, MLGS R2), I find those to be far more useful then backstabbing. Lowering the damage on BS is what I think would be the best.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:18 am

    Midgar, if I power Within and switch to Hornet's and my Chaos +5 G Halberd, I can deal over 2k damage with a one handed backstab, against farmers the is very useful. As well I know how to reverse parry riposte chain BS attempts, so that is a guaranteed kill. You'd be surprised at what is useful against farmers really.
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Yukon on Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:23 am

    I also want to point out midgar that you say a BS often won't be enough to kill in a 3v1 situation... So why does it need a nerf? If it already cannot help you in a situation where odds are against you how is it damaging to the game? If you want to OHKO someone with a backstab what you are doing is using a hornet ring or a critical boost weapon like a dagger. Not only are you switching weapons on the fly, losing a ring slot AND opening yourself up to a backstab but you are going toe to toe with not 1 but THREE other players who want you dead by any means.

    How then is BS overpowered in this situation any more than TWOP WOG or other spammable moves?

    The problem here seems to lie not with backstabs but people MIN-MAXing to get a OHKO backstab, because you said yourself they don't do enough to kill alone.

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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Midgar on Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:04 am

    TWOP is avoidable as is WoG, a CSS to the face while someone is using TWOP usually works and most of the time you can roll through WoG with DWGR or you can block it with the Crest Shield. I think even something that is a 2 shot kill is pretty overpowered *shrugs*. I use to play a PvP game that was far more harsh then Dark Souls when you died but the PvP was far more balanced. There was a spell that could 1HKO anyone and had a 360 degree radius. The difference was that it took some skill to use. First you'd have to angle it correctly to get multiple hits(which guarantees 1HKO otherwise it isn't) with one cast and second you'd have to time it correctly because you can get hit while using it AND it drains half your health. Backstabs are hardly difficult, half the time I'll be behind someone and I'll get backstabbed or we'll simultaneously BS each other taking no damage, not to mention you are invulnerable while backstabbing, it's a pretty ridiculous IG mechanic to me.

    I highly doubt anything will be changed but I was bored silly


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Yukon on Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:10 am

    I guess you and me just have different gaming mentalities, Personally when I backstab while being backstabbed by 1-2 people I go take about 5 seconds to recover and stop laughing. Rather than getting angry at someone which clearly was not intentional on either side. I have watched my char teleport from one end of a bridge to another, backstab in mid air etc. But thats baout 5% of the time and that is being generous.

    I suppose I am just not competitive enough to care, if pvp in one area frustrates me due to lag or campers I just move to another area.

    My main argument is that with spells like TWOP or WOG or whatever, you are targeting all 3 of the phantoms that are chasing you in a gank, rather than going for the divide and backstab technique which could easily get you murdered.


    Last edited by Yukon on Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:14 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Midgar on Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:12 am

    Meh I don't care very much either and I hardly get angry at Dark Souls. I just felt like voicing my opinion on what I think is overpowered in games especially since I'm bored and can't sleep =[


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Yesuurd on Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:04 am

    wasn't this a poll? Shrug


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Artorias on Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:24 am

    From will never remove bs, its part of what makes a soul game. Also the soul series is a SINGLE PLAYER game with a small MULTI PLAYER aspect to it removing it would penalize the single players. Over powered ? everyone can do it, it requires no specific wep/item


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by WarriorOfSunlight on Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:48 am

    I didn't realise that everyone who plays the Souls series plays pvp only. Heh.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by ARSP on Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:44 pm

    To put it simply they to make the bs hitboxes smaller I got back stabbed yesterday from my right shoulder not my back :evil:


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Gol on Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:49 pm

    Artorias wrote:From will never remove bs, its part of what makes a soul game. Also the soul series is a SINGLE PLAYER game with a small MULTI PLAYER aspect to it removing it would penalize the single players. Over powered ? everyone can do it, it requires no specific wep/item


    I laugh, everytime I read that.
    It WAS true, demon's souls was a "SINGLE PLAYER game with a small MULTI PLAYER aspect to it" but Dark souls is really an hybrid, in fact the game is really multiplayer-oriented.

    But maybe we aren't playing the same game and there's no covenants. :roll:

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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Artorias on Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:53 pm

    I was talking about the soul series in general :roll:

    Also it is true that most covenants are based on multiplayer but still the majorty of the people just do jolly coop and single player.

    I wouldn't say its multiplayer orientated because from origanally made it that connecting to other people was more difficult , until the patch

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