Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

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    If you had the choice to take backstabs out of the game, would you?

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    Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:31 pm

    No shortage of spirited debate over the issue of backstabs, or "lagstabs" around here. This is purely a fantasy hypothetical question I'd like to toss out for all the regulars. If players were magically granted a vote on whether to keep backstabs in the game exactly as they are, or remove them completely, say, by patching out the hitbox (I have no idea if that's even possible...just go with it), how would you vote? Do you think that PvP would drag on waaaaaay to long without backstabs, or could you still make quick work of opponents by other means?
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:40 pm

    Dont bs unless its a accident(happens alot more now i dont use shields) but voted to keep them(would vote for smaller hitbox but you didnt offer that option)


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by LordRevan on Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:47 pm

    Maneater_Mildred wrote:Dont bs unless its a accident(happens alot more now i dont use shields) but voted to keep them(would vote for smaller hitbox but you didnt offer that option)

    Basically this ^^ Cept i backstab people that are using estus or TWoP.... I hate TWoP.....


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:56 pm

    LordRevan wrote:
    Maneater_Mildred wrote:Dont bs unless its a accident(happens alot more now i dont use shields) but voted to keep them(would vote for smaller hitbox but you didnt offer that option)

    Basically this ^^ Cept i backstab people that are using estus or TWoP.... I hate TWoP.....

    I just Shrug then kill them when they are done playing silly games, followed by Prayer praying for their sin filled souls, then back home i go with their ear.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:05 pm

    Maneater_Mildred wrote:Dont bs unless its a accident(happens alot more now i dont use shields) but voted to keep them(would vote for smaller hitbox but you didnt offer that option)

    It's funny you say that...I debated putting it in as a third option. A friend of mine and I talked about this and wondered if a solution might be to tie the hitbox to the weapon. Daggers get a huge hitbox, and Smough's hammer gets almost none, with everything else in between. It would make more logical sense to have the game set up this way. Maybe even tie it partially to a stat like dexterity.
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:14 pm

    I just think adjustment to the BS hitbox against other players is all that is required at most, and even then i don't think that change is necessity either


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Henkyona on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:16 pm

    The problem I have with back stabs, is the whole lag stabs, and back stab fishing it's stupid,I try to have a honorable match, swing and a miss, I get back stabbed for my troubles.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by JY4answer on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:19 pm

    If there aren't any BSs, how am I supposed to deal with farmers?
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by strangejoy on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:54 pm

    I wouldn't get rid of them, and they don't particularly upset me. I also agee with JY4answer, backstabs are an anti-farmers best friend (CSS and WoG are also good, but they're not available to everyone).

    That said, if I could design Dark Souls from scratch (pure fantasy, of course), I would narrow the hitbox for large weapons. I would also make it so that you can't successfuly backstab if you have taken damage in the last 1 second (as it stands, you can't backstab if you have taken damage in the last .2 seconds or so -- I don't know the exact number). This would reduce poise-stabbing, the annoying, counterintuitive, and skill-free practice of walking through an attack with heavy armor to land a backstab. Of all the backstabbers, the only ones I really hate are the clowns with havels and giants who will literally circle you for 10 minutes until you attack them out of boredom only to have them run through your attack (while getting damaged but not stunned) to hit your back.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by bloodpixel on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:58 pm

    They need to fix it. I think they should get only allow lighter weapons for the backstab, not greatswords.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Liff Daddy on Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:58 pm

    I'd be cool if they got rid of BS completely. I don't run into farmers that often, and even when I do all they do is try to BS you.

    The vast majority of all my invasions end up with circling to get that BS. I want straight up fights.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Lancelot on Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:26 pm

    BS brings more realism into the game. Needs to stay.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Carphil on Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:27 pm

    Lancelot wrote:BS brings more realism into the game. Needs to stay.

    Because you use BKGA and hornets ring lol


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Lancelot on Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:33 pm

    Carphil wrote:
    Lancelot wrote:BS brings more realism into the game. Needs to stay.

    Because you use BKGA and hornets ring lol

    Disregarding my preference, it brings more realism in general to the game.
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by strangejoy on Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:35 am

    Lancelot wrote:
    Carphil wrote:
    Lancelot wrote:BS brings more realism into the game. Needs to stay.

    Because you use BKGA and hornets ring lol

    Disregarding my preference, it brings more realism in general to the game.

    It's a good game mechanic, IMO, so it should stay. But where are you getting this "realism" stuff? In real life, there isn't anything particularly awesome about hitting someone in the back unless you surprise them. Surprise allows you to target a vital organ. Without surprise, hitting someone in the back is no better than hitting them in the chest or the stomach. Thus, in heated combat, "backstabs" make absolutely no sense, which is precisely why no armed fighting style in the world has ever advocating circling round and round your opponent to tag their back. Backstabs in this game are insanely unrealistic. That doesn't mean they should go away (we don't play games to emulate real life), but let's not talk about realism.
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by WarriorOfSunlight on Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:55 pm

    Why remove a game feature, which the only people complaining about it (the pvp community) make up a tiny fraction of the fanbase? Logic?


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by aceluby on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:00 pm

    Backstabs should stay, however, they could be fixed. I think the hitbox should be smaller to diminish locked on pivot backstabs and I also think that the hitbox size should be tied inversely to the size of the weapon.

    With all that being said, I don't really have a huge issue w/ the way they are implemented now. BS fishers are boring and usually fast fights. If all they care about is winning then by all means, stroke your ego, but I personally PvP to have long epic (fun) battles.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:15 pm

    I'm all for fixing the hitbox. In fact, doing this might add even more diversity to the builds, and choice of weapons. I'd love to see some combo of weapon and dexterity dictate the formula for the size of the hitbox. That stuff about people walking through attacks with poise and striking a backstab is beyond ridiculous.
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Emergence on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:39 pm

    Back Lot Basher wrote:I'm all for fixing the hitbox. In fact, doing this might add even more diversity to the builds, and choice of weapons. I'd love to see some combo of weapon and dexterity dictate the formula for the size of the hitbox. That stuff about people walking through attacks with poise and striking a backstab is beyond ridiculous.

    If I may play devil's advocate, is using poise to complete a smash with a greatsword while being repeatedly poked by a rapier any less ridiculous?

    If we go with the statement "walking through attacks with poise and striking a backstab is beyond ridiculous", could it be that the first part of that statement "walking through attacks with poise" may indicate which game element needs to be scrutinized?

    Just applying Socratic method to create food for thought.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:46 pm

    Emergence wrote:
    Back Lot Basher wrote:I'm all for fixing the hitbox. In fact, doing this might add even more diversity to the builds, and choice of weapons. I'd love to see some combo of weapon and dexterity dictate the formula for the size of the hitbox. That stuff about people walking through attacks with poise and striking a backstab is beyond ridiculous.

    If I may play devil's advocate, is using poise to complete a smash with a greatsword while being repeatedly poked by a rapier any less ridiculous?

    If we go with the statement "walking through attacks with poise and striking a backstab is beyond ridiculous", could it be that the first part of that statement "walking through attacks with poise" may indicate which game element needs to be scrutinized?

    Just applying Socratic method to create food for thought.

    The only problem with that emergence is the fact that your opinion is a bit biased towards how demon's was without poise silly

    however in the same way, the poise element how would we fix that as oppose to the backstab? making it so you can't walk through at least one attack of a katana or a longsword would render the mechanic useless... while leaving it as is seems also to be too much..

    The problem with the approach you suggest is the fact that the balancing on poise is more difficult to correct while reducing hitbox for backstabs i feel is a more straightforward thing to accomplish in a balanced/agreeable manner.

    I'd say personally that perhaps both should be changed, but with poise doing less, the even greater rise of people rocking full havels/giants would commence. Whereas changing the backstab hitbox would simply reduce the number of people who choose to just fish of BS rather than fight, and avoiding a backstab would become less difficult too.


    Last edited by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:50 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Lancelot on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:47 pm

    I agree with Emergence. If your problem is with Poise, then it should be with Poise instead of backstabbing. Otherwise I could simply walk through someones attacks and just hit them with my rapier, and it would cause the same discussion as with backstabbing.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:58 pm

    I absolutely hate lag stabs, so we should keep them. See, lagstabbing is an issue but one regarding connections between players, not backstabbing itself. Sure I think maybe there should be some tweaking to damage and hit box fixing, but overall I like that backstabs are in the game and I think they are a key part of PvE and PvP. I can't tell you how difficult it would be for me to kill 3v1 farmers if not for Backstabs. Backstabs can make for great punishments against people who aren't trying to play fair, and sometimes if you're facing a guy with a huge weapon swinging away and you can roll backstab, he left himself open in my opinion. Tweak Backstabs? Sure. Remove them? I don't think so.
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Artorias on Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:10 pm

    Just lower the critical damage for big weapons i.e BKGA, Zwei, Demons great hammer...etc
    Also somebody mentioned that the pvp community is less than 10 % of the people who play dark souls, So removing it will upset the other 90%
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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by Emergence on Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:13 pm

    I should clarify. Poise is not a problem, but one could argue that the balance to poise is a backstab. With a limited hitbox, one could simply swing large weapons wildly without fear of leaving one's back exposed. That could easily tilt the tenuous balance in favor of the greatswords which is already a grumbled about weapon class. If you decrease the ability of poise to resist certain weapons, I think you would see a decrease in the Giant's/Greatsword combo.


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    Re: Suppose From offered a communty vote to remove backstabs...

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:25 pm

    Decrease bs hitbox for larger weapons. Anything larger than a dagger has a smaller hitbox.

    Nerf the critical rate on great weapons. Something like 20% extra damage would be wonderful.

    Have a decrease in poise while swinging, allowing smaller weapons to have a chance to break stance when someone is swinging a large weapon.

    Lower the effectiveness of poise. Someone should not be able to walk through an ultra greatsword's swing.

    Have heavy armor decrease ability to backstab.

    Just some idea's.


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