The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by EverlastingRat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:12 pm

    the reason i thought about Gwyn being Priscilla's father is because of how she's kept in the painted world, though it seems that she could leave. But I wondered if it was a way to keep a dirty little secret away... I mean what if somehow Gwyn decided to be with Velka, after leaving his first wife(possibly a the first fire keeper, and he got bored since she can't leave), and then he goes and shacks up with some dragon apostle or something and Velka found out and that's why you find corspe of a Black Cleric in the painted world. She sent them on a hunt for the product of Gwyn's betrayal, Priscilla, even though he already betrayed his first wife...and wow this sounds f*¢n ridiculous... :|

    This honestly sounds a little soap opera-ish and super holey hypothesize. I mean Gwyn seems to be a reinvention of the Zeus archetype, and well, Zeus was always out and about pumping other woman and he did some weird shhht, like disguising himself as animals or clouds or stuff. So to a degree, Gwyn being a zoophiliac doesn't sound so strange.

    Not much evidence, this is something i came up with while i was on the throne... so it could easily be my a$$ talking


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:00 pm

    EverlastingRat wrote: I mean Gwyn seems to be a reinvention of the Zeus archetype, and well, Zeus was always out and about pumping other woman and he did some weird shhht, like disguising himself as animals or clouds or stuff. So to a degree, Gwyn being a zoophiliac doesn't sound so strange.

    So Gwyn really did have an affair with Frampt :shock:

    The Dusk and Seathe theory for Priscilla's parents has always seemed strong to me but it's possible he had multiple affairs and had Priscilla. Since we know nothing of Gwyns wife, it's possible each of his children had a different mother.

    When it says they inherited the sun (or words to that effect) I assumed it meant because the firstborn was first he got Gwyns ultimate power of the Sun just as Kings first borns are the first to become King and Gwyns lighting bolts are really what make him the Lord of Lords. I assumed this was done through splitting his Lord Souls into different pieces just as humanity is split rather than his children being born with special powers. Gwyndolin was born with an affinity for the moon (the power/light of which comes from the Sun as a weaker reflection of the true flames power) hence I think that he was born with higher intelligence than most and grasped magic easily, Gwyn still had to pass down his power by dividing his soul just as he does with Seath and the Four Kings. I'm pretty sure that somewhere it says he divided his power amongst his children and followers before linking the flame which he could only do by dividing his soul. Although it's not really clear as we only meet one of his children in game (depending on your views on the first born, potentially 2) but Gwyndolin is pretty weak if he doesn't rely on the flame imo.


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    The Serpents

    Post by FireproofFlame on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:14 am

    I think the only truly evil characters in Dark Souls are the primordial serpents Kingseeker Frampt and Darkstalker Kaathe. This is mainly based upon the fact that both appear to be allies to the protagonist, yet they both have ulterior motives.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:24 am

    The serpents and possibly yourself depending on how you play your character.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by raecor14 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:51 pm

    i still stick by my shades of grey, 3 ending theory.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by EverlastingRat on Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:20 pm

    fu¢ those serpents....


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by VMatrixX on Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:31 am

    Guys, hold onto your seats because my next theory is gonna blow your socks off, the bad guy in dark souls... is YOU!

    Think about it, if you become the dark lord you forsake the Gods who have kept the peace of the world by keeping the bonfires going, you also release the darkwraiths and the abyss upon the world, but...
    .
    .
    .
    If you link the fire, you keep man suspended in limbo, never really dying. You also let the Gods keep sacrificing people to keep the fires going, it seems the "Way of white" was a religion to cover up the fact to the public all along! they just were using religion as an excuse to haul away undead to use them as fuel, a conspiracy!

    So who is the real villain? Well... thats for you to decide...


    Well What is it Well What is it Well What is it


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by twilightwarwolf on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:15 pm

    i dont think peace was kept by the bonfires and if you notice in game you technically release the abyss when you beat the kings and allow kaathe to take over them again and as we see nothing has happened as for the dws....idk you would be their leader so maybe you get to start telling them what to do.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by DE5PA1R on Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:05 am

    VMatrixX wrote:If you link the fire, you keep man suspended in limbo, never really dying. You also let the Gods keep sacrificing people to keep the fires going, it seems the "Way of white" was a religion to cover up the fact to the public all along! they just were using religion as an excuse to haul away undead to use them as fuel, a conspiracy

    There's no need to continue sacrifices once an Undead links the flame. The cycle is a lie.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by VMatrixX on Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:02 am

    DE5PA1R wrote:
    VMatrixX wrote:If you link the fire, you keep man suspended in limbo, never really dying. You also let the Gods keep sacrificing people to keep the fires going, it seems the "Way of white" was a religion to cover up the fact to the public all along! they just were using religion as an excuse to haul away undead to use them as fuel, a conspiracy

    There's no need to continue sacrifices once an Undead links the flame. The cycle is a lie.

    If you link the fire, the flame will start to fade again, and the Gods will start killing to fuel it again


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:06 pm

    VMatrixX wrote:
    DE5PA1R wrote:
    VMatrixX wrote:If you link the fire, you keep man suspended in limbo, never really dying. You also let the Gods keep sacrificing people to keep the fires going, it seems the "Way of white" was a religion to cover up the fact to the public all along! they just were using religion as an excuse to haul away undead to use them as fuel, a conspiracy

    There's no need to continue sacrifices once an Undead links the flame. The cycle is a lie.

    If you link the fire, the flame will start to fade again, and the Gods will start killing to fuel it again

    One person every 1000 years or so is a reasonable sacrifice to keep the world going. The Mayans and Aztecs sacrificed a lot more people than that every year, and it was considered a great honor; people would volunteer their children.

    That said, letting the flame die is what causes teh undead curse, trapping people in "Limbo." There's no reason to think that the undead curse, which is recent, springing up the same time the mystical flame that created disparity starts to die is a coincidence. They are obviously linked.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by GhosTAnoynmouS on Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:45 pm

    the developers have stated that they originally wanted a covenant of Velka but couldn't because of constraints so i think they merged the ideas from that with the dark moon blade. so i don't think there is any tension between Gwyndolin and Velka dealing with the covenant. however i do think its interesting that its a crow that takes you away from the asylum and that it is also where the peculiar doll is found so i believe Velka plays a much larger role in our quests then we think and i think its obvious Gwyndolin isn't trying to stop you from reaching Gwyn seeing as he tells you to follow Frampt who is trying to direct you to doing just that. i also believe Gwyndolin was the one to cast all the illusions since he has an affinity for the moon which insinuates his ability with illusions, plus he also puts up an illusion in the form of the never ending hallway you battle him in (which in fact does end). i don't think there is a true evil just different agendas and desired ends. just like in the real world, when theres a war no one side is "evil" each side is fighting for something important to them and what is necessarily bad about that? bad is an object of personal view and opinion. so imo there is no bad side no real "evil" the game is meant to be extremely open for interpretation so its up to you to think who is bad and good


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:22 am

    GhosTAnoynmouS wrote:the developers have stated that they originally wanted a covenant of Velka but couldn't because of constraints so i think they merged the ideas from that with the dark moon blade. so i don't think there is any tension between Gwyndolin and Velka dealing with the covenant. however i do think its interesting that its a crow that takes you away from the asylum and that it is also where the peculiar doll is found so i believe Velka plays a much larger role in our quests then we think and i think its obvious Gwyndolin isn't trying to stop you from reaching Gwyn seeing as he tells you to follow Frampt who is trying to direct you to doing just that. i also believe Gwyndolin was the one to cast all the illusions since he has an affinity for the moon which insinuates his ability with illusions, plus he also puts up an illusion in the form of the never ending hallway you battle him in (which in fact does end). i don't think there is a true evil just different agendas and desired ends. just like in the real world, when theres a war no one side is "evil" each side is fighting for something important to them and what is necessarily bad about that? bad is an object of personal view and opinion. so imo there is no bad side no real "evil" the game is meant to be extremely open for interpretation so its up to you to think who is bad and good

    Evil is indeed a personal view, but the vast majority of "evil" acts are seen as such by every non-sociopathic human. While cultures will clash as to whether or not, say, adultery is wrong, I have yet to hear of a culture that allowed wanton theft and murder to rage uncontrolled. As such, there are certain elements of life that can be said to be "good" or "evil," though the vast majority of wars are not caused by such ideals.

    Because of that, it is fairly easy to claim that the "good side" is the one striving to improve the lives of the living, while the "bad side" is the one trying to worsen them. As the dark lord ending will likely leave humanity unable to progress or even die, I say that it is the bad ending.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by GhosTAnoynmouS on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:42 am

    Shkar wrote:
    GhosTAnoynmouS wrote:the developers have stated that they originally wanted a covenant of Velka but couldn't because of constraints so i think they merged the ideas from that with the dark moon blade. so i don't think there is any tension between Gwyndolin and Velka dealing with the covenant. however i do think its interesting that its a crow that takes you away from the asylum and that it is also where the peculiar doll is found so i believe Velka plays a much larger role in our quests then we think and i think its obvious Gwyndolin isn't trying to stop you from reaching Gwyn seeing as he tells you to follow Frampt who is trying to direct you to doing just that. i also believe Gwyndolin was the one to cast all the illusions since he has an affinity for the moon which insinuates his ability with illusions, plus he also puts up an illusion in the form of the never ending hallway you battle him in (which in fact does end). i don't think there is a true evil just different agendas and desired ends. just like in the real world, when theres a war no one side is "evil" each side is fighting for something important to them and what is necessarily bad about that? bad is an object of personal view and opinion. so imo there is no bad side no real "evil" the game is meant to be extremely open for interpretation so its up to you to think who is bad and good

    Evil is indeed a personal view, but the vast majority of "evil" acts are seen as such by every non-sociopathic human. While cultures will clash as to whether or not, say, adultery is wrong, I have yet to hear of a culture that allowed wanton theft and murder to rage uncontrolled. As such, there are certain elements of life that can be said to be "good" or "evil," though the vast majority of wars are not caused by such ideals.

    Because of that, it is fairly easy to claim that the "good side" is the one striving to improve the lives of the living, while the "bad side" is the one trying to worsen them. As the dark lord ending will likely leave humanity unable to progress or even die, I say that it is the bad ending.


    okay ill admit you made some very valid points that i agree with, however maybe a ive journeyed off track. sadly i agree with you on the ending as wel but would like to hear someone explain their belief on why the dark lord ending is a good ending


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:47 am

    GhosTAnoynmouS wrote:
    okay ill admit you made some very valid points that i agree with, however maybe a ive journeyed off track. sadly i agree with you on the ending as wel but would like to hear someone explain their belief on why the dark lord ending is a good ending

    They typically say that the gods are oppressive tyrants and that the dark lord ending removes the gods powers, freeing humanity from their rule. However, I'll let anyone who wishes too give you their actual sales pitch.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by twilightwarwolf on Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:31 am

    i will try later today when i get a free moment.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by GhosTAnoynmouS on Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:48 pm

    i did some thinking and, i feel that the dark lord ending could be justified in the fact that it is just moving the world into the next age in the cycle. the age of dark is going to happen regardless of what happens, rekindling the bonfire is just a short term answer to a long term problem kinda like trying to put a bandaid on a gun shot wound. now while i personally dont like the idea of becoming the dark lord i do hate the idea that the act of rekindling the fire and sacrificing youself will make no real difference. its just the act of trying to cling on tosomething that is already gone


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:30 pm

    GhosTAnoynmouS wrote:i did some thinking and, i feel that the dark lord ending could be justified in the fact that it is just moving the world into the next age in the cycle. the age of dark is going to happen regardless of what happens, rekindling the bonfire is just a short term answer to a long term problem kinda like trying to put a bandaid on a gun shot wound. now while i personally dont like the idea of becoming the dark lord i do hate the idea that the act of rekindling the fire and sacrificing youself will make no real difference. its just the act of trying to cling on tosomething that is already gone

    Kindling the flame seemed to work pretty well the first time, and a single sacrifice every 1000 years or so is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Far better than letting civilization grind to a halt.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by GhosTAnoynmouS on Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:41 pm

    but it wouldnt be a halt, it would be moving forward, what progress had the world made in that last 1000 years? what more did it have to offer? kindling the flame is just prolonging the course of nature, the world needs to keep moving on to get back to an age of prosperity again eventually. i dont think trying to hold off the dark age for as long as we can until we have no one to rekindle the flame again. and just to mention i highly respect your views and opinions and hope none of this comes across as bashing or anything of the sort


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:06 pm

    The flame created life, light, and everything that comes along with those things. As it fades, so do they, hence the undead and "eternal nights." Some people may think humanity could progress in a world like that, but I don't think so.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by GhosTAnoynmouS on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:13 pm

    i dont know if it could or couldnt but lets just go with no for the sake of conversation.but the way i see it is the age of fire is already over no matter if anyone wants to believe it or not and in my opinion for any progression the age of dark must come to pass so that another "age of fire" may come.i believe it works in cycles. the cycle cant restart if we hold it still


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:56 pm

    GhosTAnoynmouS wrote:i dont know if it could or couldnt but lets just go with no for the sake of conversation.but the way i see it is the age of fire is already over no matter if anyone wants to believe it or not and in my opinion for any progression the age of dark must come to pass so that another "age of fire" may come.i believe it works in cycles. the cycle cant restart if we hold it still

    The problem is that the fire is obviously, too put it in literary terms, a symbol. It wasn't something that they just picked just because; it wasn't picked because it sounded cool. The story is too subtly told and too well written for it to be that ordinary.

    So we look at what a fire is, and how it works; that is why they chose a fire for the role the flame plays, instead of, say, a magical cup that needed to be filled with human blood or something. And the fact of the matter is, while you can add more fuel to a fire and stock it back up so it's as good as new, you can't restart it once it has burned out.

    You need another "spark" to get it going again. And since there's no indication as to what could have caused that initial spark, (in fact, it seems more like the big bang than a spark) it is unlikely that another one would just occur.


    So is it "natural" for the flame to burn down? Yes.

    Is it wrong to try to prevent that? Not in the slightest.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by twilightwarwolf on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:03 pm

    i agree with you i feel that prolonging the age of fire isnt the right way to go. and personally if you have to sacrifice a person to do something dont you think that maybe another way could be found or something different done to attain your goal of prosperity?

    EDIT: ok so i ment to post this before shkars response and that would be a normal flame but a sacrifice to keep something going seems more than a little wrong to me what makes it so worth keeping the flame going?


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:08 pm

    twilightwarwolf wrote:i agree with you i feel that prolonging the age of fire isnt the right way to go. and personally if you have to sacrifice a person to do something dont you think that maybe another way could be found or something different done to attain your goal of prosperity?

    Ideally, yes. But life doesn't work on "shoulds." Yes, there "should" have been a better way to stop the Nazi crimes of WWII than all-out global war, but what better way would that have been?

    This isn't changing out some lightbulb we're talking about in-game. This is an entirely different level of event that the only possible comparison to the real world would be trying to keep the sun from burning out. The Mayans and Aztecs sacrificed thousands of people a year to stop that from happening; it was seen as an honor.

    In the grand scheme of things, you simply can not claim that one person's life every thousand years is worth the risk of letting the human race go extinct. If you can say that one person's life is equal to every living person and every person who has yet to be born, then you need your priorities checked before you run for president happy

    EDIT: Wolf, there are people who would gladly make that sacrifice; I guarantee it. I would personally do it if it meant keeping the entire rest of the world alive, and I know for a fact there are other people who would. Hell, it's the same basic concept that militaries use, only scaled up so that it's more efficient. Yes, one person is guaranteed to die; but that's it.


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    Re: The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

    Post by twilightwarwolf on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:15 pm

    even so how do we REALLY know that the flame burning is the "right" thing as DkS doesnt have a black and white sides? its not like we put out a flame and boom suddenly we dont have time and space or differences.


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