Mages: Why the hate?

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    Animaaal
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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:48 pm

    LunarFog wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:I'm sorry lunar, but being so presumptuous and simply stating magic requires no skill and most cheap people are magicians is rather unbecoming of anyone on this forum.

    -1

    You should know by now that I'm not the most becoming person in these forums.

    Feel free to rip me if I'm wrong but a pure caster has 2 BUFFS they can stack and use at any time with no detrimental effects(Crown of Dusk + Bellowing Dragoncrest ring/Ring of Sun's firstborn), and the only buffs available to melee users are the hornet ring and Leo ring which only work under special circumstances.

    Magicians also have the advantage of CHIP DAMAGE. Even with shields designed specifically for blocking magic I've had over 40% of my health chipped away.

    LAG can make dodging spells tricky if not impossible. I've dodged 5 feet away from a soul spear and still took damage, and I've blocked a soul spear, put down my shield and then took the damage.

    The RANGE AND POWER of spells are also pretty ridiculous. A standard soul spear can do over 1000 damage, which is not only stronger than an ultra greatsword and way faster, but it can be shot from a distance and quickly.

    Magicians have theSAFETY of range and regaining stamina while casting spells, always putting them at a stamina advantage compared to a melee user.

    Oh, and all of their most dangerous spells(WoG, Dark Bead, Crystal Soul spear) are easily SPAMMABLE.


    So with advantages in buffs, chip damage, lag, range, power, safety, and spam, tell me how it takes as much skill to be a mage opposed to a melee user?

    DWGR ruins mages. VoS ruins mages. Mages ruin mages. Strong Magic Shield ruins mages. GMB ruins mages. Bows and crossbows can ruin mages. But don't get me wrong....

    ....we totally kicka$$!! twisted

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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Carphil on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:50 pm

    Magic, taking skill or not, is boring to use IMO


    I'm the kind of people who can't resist going full foward melee


    But I have to agree with some Lunar points. Lag makes magic very powerful, but so does backstabs.

    The thing is, it makes parry even more dificult, so melee people tend to complain about magicians often.


    I don't thing magic is cheap, is in the game and avaible for everyone to use, and you can make anti mages builds as well, but personally I can't become a full mage, an hybrid at most


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:53 pm

    Animaaal wrote:DWGR ruins mages. VoS ruins mages. Mages ruin mages. Strong Magic Shield ruins mages. GMB ruins mages. Bows and crossbows can ruin mages. But don't get me wrong....

    ....we totally kicka$$!! twisted

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    Can't really argue that. While mages have their buffs and magic power we do have enough anti-magic items and miracles that really punish them for trying magic on us. Heck even some of their own magic can be used pretty well against them.


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by LunarFog on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:53 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    DWGR ruins mages. VoS ruins mages. Mages ruin mages. Strong Magic Shield ruins mages. GMB ruins mages. Bows and crossbows can ruin mages.

    DWGR - The extra invincibility frames could counter the lag of spells maybe.

    VoS - Since this lasts for 25 seconds that might be long enough to mess up a mage so I'll give you this one.

    Mages - Takes a mage to kill a mage so this doesn't count.

    Strong magic shield - Lasts for 15 seconds, so not really.

    GMB - I'll give you this one.

    Bows and crossbows - No. If you try interrupting a soul spear with a crossbow it'll only end with simultaneous hits, and guess which hurts more?

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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:53 pm

    You're forgetting that soul spear is easily dodgable, even with lag. Range means nothing if you can close the distance. Chip damage won't happen if you have a good shield with you...

    Using those stacks requires sacrificing of other things lunar. Rings such as wolf ring, havel's ring, fap ring can be essential to any melee build, but in a mage build you cannot use as many as a melee build can with their setup. Every build gets it's stacks and advantages, they're different to others.

    The fact is this comes down to what I call PvP rock paper scissors. Some builds just trump others. If you wanna trump a mage, a faith user with GMB and a nice magic shield is the way you wanna go, not a pure melee build.

    As I like to say, each PvP match really is decided mostly on what you bring to the dogfight. Magic users can easily be negated, it's just few people think to employ tactics that would negate them


    Last edited by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Shindori on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:53 pm

    LunarFog wrote:My problem with magic is:

    Spells are OP and spammable

    Lag can make dodging spells impossible.

    From personal experience all the cheapest people and gankers tend to be magicians.

    It doesn't take any skill to use magic.


    And did you just imply that parrying takes no skill? You're kidding right?
    >n>


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by NPCWhiteMage on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:54 pm

    LunarFog wrote:You should know by now that I'm not the most becoming person in these forums.

    Feel free to rip me if I'm wrong but a pure caster has 2 BUFFS they can stack and use at any time with no detrimental effects(Crown of Dusk + Bellowing Dragoncrest ring/Ring of Sun's firstborn), and the only buffs available to melee users are the hornet ring and Leo ring which only work under special circumstances.

    Magicians also have the advantage of CHIP DAMAGE. Even with shields designed specifically for blocking magic I've had over 40% of my health chipped away.

    LAG can make dodging spells tricky if not impossible. I've dodged 5 feet away from a soul spear and still took damage, and I've blocked a soul spear, put down my shield and then took the damage.

    The RANGE AND POWER of spells are also pretty ridiculous. A standard soul spear can do over 1000 damage, which is not only stronger than an ultra greatsword and way faster, but it can be shot from a distance and quickly.

    Magicians have theSAFETY of range and regaining stamina while casting spells, always putting them at a stamina advantage compared to a melee user.

    Oh, and all of their most dangerous spells(WoG, Dark Bead, Crystal Soul spear) are easily SPAMMABLE.


    So with advantages in buffs, chip damage, lag, range, power, safety, and spam, tell me how it takes as much skill to be a mage opposed to a melee user?

    Be a better warrior? I'm sorry to say that, but there are options out there. Dip into faith and pick up Vow of Silence. Or pick up a Stone Greatsword and use the Tranquil Walk of Peace ability to slow them down, catch up, and have at. Get a bow, sure they do crap damage, but it offers range. (Black) Firebombs provide range to a non caster as well.

    This arguement simply comes people being set in their ways and not willing to try new things, and instead blame the system which is clearly not broken.

    Also, don't blame Lag.


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:55 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:You're forgetting that soul spear is easily dodgable, even with lag. Range means nothing if you can close the distance. Chip damage won't happen if you have a good shield with you...

    Using those stacks requires sacrificing of other things lunar. Rings such as wolf ring, havel's ring, fap ring can be essential to any melee build, but in a mage build you cannot use as many as a melee build can with their setup. Every build gets it's stacks and advantages, they're different to others.

    The fact is this comes down to what I call PvP rock paper scissors. Some builds just trump others. If you wanna trump a mage, a faith user with GMB and a nice magic shield is the way you wanna go, not a pure melee build.

    As I like to say, each PvP match really is decided mostly on what you bring to the dogfight. Magic users can easily be negated, it's just few people think to employ tactics that would negate them


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:58 pm

    It's my opinion that the best way to take a mage out is master the time it takes to cast a spell and dodge it. Dodge the spells, wear them out, close the distance and kill them! Why bother investing in all the faith and int if you know how to dodge magic? Unless you have a build that doesn't rely on dodging,


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by LunarFog on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:01 pm

    NPCWhiteMage wrote:

    Be a better warrior? I'm sorry to say that, but there are options out there. Dip into faith and pick up Vow of Silence. Or pick up a Stone Greatsword and use the Tranquil Walk of Peace ability to slow them down, catch up, and have at. Get a bow, sure they do crap damage, but it offers range. (Black) Firebombs provide range to a non caster as well.

    This arguement simply comes people being set in their ways and not willing to try new things, and instead blame the system which is clearly not broken.

    Also, don't blame Lag.

    I'm in no way saying the system is broken. I'm able to beat the majority of the magicians I meet. In fact, they don't even give me a significant amount of trouble compared to the others. Still doesn't change the fact that compared to melee users mages don't take as much skill.

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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by NPCWhiteMage on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:01 pm

    O_O Thusly the circle continues


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by psychichobo on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:05 pm

    Eh, Lag kills everyone. I've died so often to magic teleportation backstabs it's just not funny.

    I have had some very good fights with mages, but I do find that Dark Magic (and Bead in particular) is rather difficult to deal with - it's much more punishing than regular magic and the timing windows for dodging are harder to hit, which is why people feel it more - especially where lag is involved.
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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Peaceful Wollyhop on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:06 pm

    Food for thought: The amount of techniques to master as a swordsman compared to the techniques to master as a mage


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:07 pm

    Carphil wrote:...Magic, taking skill or not, is boring to use IMO...

    Pull off a Black Flame (RH) --> Force (LH) --> Great Combustion (RH) combo, and you'll see that attuenment combo are extremely complex, loads of fun to try and pull off, and very difficult.

    But ya, spamming is for tools.

    LunarFog wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    DWGR ruins mages. VoS ruins mages. Mages ruin mages. Strong Magic Shield ruins mages. GMB ruins mages. Bows and crossbows can ruin mages.

    DWGR - The extra invincibility frames could counter the lag of spells maybe.

    VoS - Since this lasts for 25 seconds that might be long enough to mess up a mage so I'll give you this one.

    Mages - Takes a mage to kill a mage so this doesn't count.

    Strong magic shield - Lasts for 15 seconds, so not really.

    GMB - I'll give you this one.

    Bows and crossbows - No. If you try interrupting a soul spear with a crossbow it'll only end with simultaneous hits, and guess which hurts more?

    Re: SMS and mages and bows/crossbows.

    -SMS is long enough. Not by much, but it is. You also get 3 casts. Besides, its not really intended for tanking, you just cast, block, pressure and kill. A mages worst opponents are the ones that pressure well. SMS allows you do do that nearly risk free.

    -A mage silly

    -Bows/crossbows. Some mages are poiseless. Bows absolutely ruin them and punish them for not applying pressure. Timing has a lot to do with it though.

    Why am I helping??? NVM...THESE DO NOT WORK! Coffee!
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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by mugenis4real on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:10 pm

    Truth be told I haven't used a weapon or shield in Dark Souls for months now. After the DLC dropped, mages became more powerful than ever. These are my current builds and my win-loss in Undead Burg duels.

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=187287502795171285
    Wins: 87
    Losses: 6
    Draws: 5

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=184348154726473680
    Wins: 44
    Losses: 3
    Draws: 0

    I think the numbers speak for themselves. To be honest I'm loving this play-style simply because it makes me feel GODLIKE king against melee oriented players.

    One thing I will never understand though is why no one ever uses this miracle, especially after the DLC
    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Vow+of+Silence

    On a more final note, to say that being a Caster takes no skill is the same as saying "I don't understand Dark Souls." Look Skyward


    Last edited by mugenis4real on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : SPELLING)

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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:20 pm

    mugenis4real wrote:Truth be told I haven't used a weapon or shield in Dark Souls for months now. After the DLC dropped, mages became more powerful than ever. These are my current builds and my win-loss in Undead Burg duels.

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=187287502795171285
    Wins: 87
    Losses: 6
    Draws: 5

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=184348154726473680
    Wins: 44
    Losses: 3
    Draws: 0

    I think the numbers speak for themselves. To be honest I'm loving this play-style simply because it makes me feel GODLIKE king against melee oriented players.

    One thing I will never understand though is why no one ever uses this miracle, especially after the DLC
    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Vow+of+Silence

    On a more final note, to say that being a Caster takes no skill is the same as saying "I don't understand Dark Souls." Look Skyward

    OMG THE BEAUTY!!!!! ITS BLINDING ME!!! :affraid: ... :shock: ... :pirat: ...there goes my left eye.
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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:22 pm

    mugenis4real wrote:Truth be told I haven't used a weapon or shield in Dark Souls for months now. After the DLC dropped, mages became more powerful than ever. These are my current builds and my win-loss in Undead Burg duels.

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=187287502795171285
    Wins: 87
    Losses: 6
    Draws: 5

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=184348154726473680
    Wins: 44
    Losses: 3
    Draws: 0

    I think the numbers speak for themselves. To be honest I'm loving this play-style simply because it makes me feel GODLIKE king against melee oriented players.

    One thing I will never understand though is why no one ever uses this miracle, especially after the DLC
    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Vow+of+Silence

    On a more final note, to say that being a Caster takes no skill is the same as saying "I don't understand Dark Souls."
    Factual evidence that's been proven with data is the best kind of evidence. +1 good sir!


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Carphil on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:28 pm

    @Animal thats pyro and miracles. Pyro and miracles are FUN. I'm talking about that blue and black stuff..


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Rynn on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:36 pm

    Magic is overpowered. Noone could look at me and seriously claim it's not... To hit someone for 800 damage in a single hit with a melee weapon requires a vastly higher amount of time.
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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by NPCWhiteMage on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:37 pm

    Rynn wrote:Magic is overpowered. Noone could look at me and seriously claim it's not... To hit someone for 800 damage in a single hit with a melee weapon requires a vastly higher amount of time.
    Magic is not over powered


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Rynn on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:39 pm

    NPCWhiteMage wrote:
    Rynn wrote:Magic is overpowered. Noone could look at me and seriously claim it's not... To hit someone for 800 damage in a single hit with a melee weapon requires a vastly higher amount of time.
    Magic is not over powered
    Then you're not using it right.

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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:40 pm

    I think all the "one hit kill" youtube vids are dragonbros using strength weapons though....
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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by NPCWhiteMage on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:40 pm

    Rynn wrote:
    NPCWhiteMage wrote:
    Rynn wrote:Magic is overpowered. Noone could look at me and seriously claim it's not... To hit someone for 800 damage in a single hit with a melee weapon requires a vastly higher amount of time.
    Magic is not over powered
    Then you're not using it right.
    ...I...uh....I don't use it at all. I fall into the warrior archtype. Specifically I use a Havel build, but that's becase I'm a roleplayer.

    My information comes from VSing Mages. Sure they hurt....but so do weapons....and spells are a lot easier to dodge


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:41 pm

    NPCWhiteMage wrote:
    Rynn wrote:Magic is overpowered. Noone could look at me and seriously claim it's not... To hit someone for 800 damage in a single hit with a melee weapon requires a vastly higher amount of time.
    Magic is not over powered
    It is when you add the items that increase the damage output, and the factor of the person taking the hit might not have the equipment to defend against it. Of course that person should be able to compensate that weakness and handle the mage right.


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    Re: Mages: Why the hate?

    Post by Peaceful Wollyhop on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:43 pm

    Animaaal wrote:I think all the "one hit kill" youtube vids are dragonbros using strength weapons though....

    Thats with stacking tonnes of buffs though and glass cannon'in. For a mage they're dealing that damage with their standard shots without buffs


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