Magic spammers? Really?

    Share
    avatar
    Rynn
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4689
    Reputation : 257
    Join date : 2012-01-26

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Rynn on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:33 am

    the only ranged weapon i despise is the avalyn, it's completely stupid and mini-max. shouldn't be in the game because it's -too- good of a punishment.
    avatar
    Sentiel
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3181
    Reputation : 231
    Join date : 2012-11-26
    Age : 30
    Location : Mushroom Kingdom

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:37 am

    Rynn wrote:the only ranged weapon i despise is the avalyn, it's completely stupid and mini-max. shouldn't be in the game because it's -too- good of a punishment.
    Rynn how can you say this? It's only dangerous if you have next to no Poise and stand still like a target, with your shield down. That thing has no follow up, it shoots all three shots in the same spot. If you lock on and just strafe to one side, it will completely miss you. Not only that, but it fires three times and then reloads, you can use it to literally walk behind the guy and backstab him.

    I'm not saying it's a bad weapon, it's just hard to use.
    On the other hand, I still haven't met a decent Crossbow user, so there might be more to it than meets the eye.

    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:44 am

    Recovery frames. If it catches you during a cast or after a miss with a heavy weapon it deals counter damage, potentially bringing the total damage it does to over 700, and while its recovery time is long it fires quickly, making it a fairly easy way to knock of 1/3 to 1/2 of someones hp from a distance, with very little wind up.

    I'm not sure I'd say its op, but its definitely brutal.


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.
    avatar
    Rynn
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4689
    Reputation : 257
    Join date : 2012-01-26

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Rynn on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:45 am

    Sentiel wrote:
    Rynn wrote:the only ranged weapon i despise is the avalyn, it's completely stupid and mini-max. shouldn't be in the game because it's -too- good of a punishment.
    Rynn how can you say this? It's only dangerous if you have next to no Poise and stand still like a target, with your shield down. That thing has no follow up, it shoots all three shots in the same spot. If you lock on and just strafe to one side, it will completely miss you. Not only that, but it fires three times and then reloads, you can use it to literally walk behind the guy and backstab him.

    I'm not saying it's a bad weapon, it's just hard to use.
    On the other hand, I still haven't met a decent Crossbow user, so there might be more to it than meets the eye.
    lets run over the statistics on this weapon:

    3 shots, totaling 41 points of poise damage.
    Thrust damage, so leo ring boost potential
    Best used to punish an opponents biffed attack
    510 damage from all 3 shots if no counter damage is received.

    An Avalon user can easily rack up 1300 damage from a single burst of 3 heavy crossbolts if they catch an opponent in the middle of a swing. It's a reactionary weapon, only shoot after your opponent swing. It's the bane of any strength weapon, not too effective against dex though.

    I used it once in PvP and was like "LOL I'M SUCH A **** NEVER AGAIN!"
    avatar
    Sentiel
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3181
    Reputation : 231
    Join date : 2012-11-26
    Age : 30
    Location : Mushroom Kingdom

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:12 am

    Perhaps the reason why I never had any problems with it and totally don't see Crossbows as a threat is because I rock only Dex weapons...

    avatar
    reim0027
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Posts : 6715
    Reputation : 381
    Join date : 2012-01-28

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:25 am

    Rynn wrote:the only ranged weapon i despise is the avalyn, it's completely stupid and mini-max. shouldn't be in the game because it's -too- good of a punishment.

    Rynn wrote:
    I used it once in PvP and was like "LOL I'M SUCH A **** NEVER AGAIN!"

    Aren't you debating on making a 40/40 build that uses an Avelyn?


    _________________


    PSN usernames: reim0027_2,   reim0027_3,  and reim0027_5.  Skype ID: reim0027  
    Tour of Lordran Soul Levels  //  Official Wiki Fight Club // Forest Invasion Soul Levels // Low Level Invasion Rules
    avatar
    Sentiel
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3181
    Reputation : 231
    Join date : 2012-11-26
    Age : 30
    Location : Mushroom Kingdom

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:34 am

    reim0027 wrote:
    Rynn wrote:the only ranged weapon i despise is the avalyn, it's completely stupid and mini-max. shouldn't be in the game because it's -too- good of a punishment.

    Rynn wrote:
    I used it once in PvP and was like "LOL I'M SUCH A **** NEVER AGAIN!"

    Aren't you debating on making a 40/40 build that uses an Avelyn?


    Nybbles
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 785
    Reputation : 45
    Join date : 2012-07-31

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:46 am

    i have knives equipped for that purpose, it's really funny when a cleric keeps kneeling down to cast heal and i keep throwing a knife at their face to interrupt their casting … because some people are slow learners.

    but you can't interrupt a dark bead casting before you get slagged by that infernal purple crap.

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:41 pm

    What did mages really have before Dark Bead and Dark Orb?

    It was pretty much just Crystal Magic Weapon with the TCC right? Sure you'd see a couple CSSs, but outside of someone being caught off guard by HCSM, it was a waste a attunement for the most part. You almost had to count on lag for CSS because the set ups kinda sucked.

    Now people are saying Dark Bead is op, when the real problem is Pursuers. Pursuers alone is a joke, but the
    Pursuer
    -->CSS is not.
    This combo can be done at a distance and opposed to Pursuers-->Dark Bead. Not only that, but you get full poise damage from CSS at a distance, and the silver pendant doesn't work against it, as a matter of fact, it will get you killed.

    Even when fighting a dex/int build, Dark Bead is still avoidable. Not only that, but being hit by 1 or 2 lag beads is hardly game breaking.

    Come on guys, the real problems are the damage boosting items/armor. Why not wear the CoD if you're rolling a no poise build? And if you're rolling no poise, why not wear the BDCR???

    These items don't just apply to mages either. There's op'd damage from the Leo Ring (albeit, maximizing that takes more skill), the Hornet Ring can still make backstabs ridiculous with some weapons, and then of course there's op'd poise stabs builds.

    People say they dont want drawn out fights...but we do.

    Think about it, who says something is op'd if it takes 3-5 minutes to finish a fight (not including runners).

    And please, op'd = "over powered" NOT "game breaking".
    Please understand that before you say, "Tired of people saying blah blah".
    Thank you.
    avatar
    Sentiel
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3181
    Reputation : 231
    Join date : 2012-11-26
    Age : 30
    Location : Mushroom Kingdom

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:46 pm

    I was rocking a caster even before the DLC and it was very effective. Had to fight in Kiln though to have a lot of space.

    People just don't know how to use spells, so they were crying that mages are useless and From gave them Dark Magic. Now people are complain that mages are OP.

    Shrug


    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:00 pm

    Sentiel wrote:I was rocking a caster even before the DLC and it was very effective. Had to fight in Kiln though to have a lot of space.

    People just don't know how to use spells, so they were crying that mages are useless and From gave them Dark Magic. Now people are complain that mages are OP.

    Shrug

    Ya, I didn't mean to say casters were not viable before. But you practically needed WoG, Dark Magic solved that problem imo. Now you can have a pure caster only using sorcery and pyro. You could've used that caster build before, but you were heavily dependant on pyro. Now a caster can have a healthy mix between the two imo.
    avatar
    Hugh_G_Johnson
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 775
    Reputation : 42
    Join date : 2013-01-09
    Location : World of the Guilty

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:16 pm

    Rynn wrote:No. I'm not. Unless you're running 0 poise you can avoid getting backstabbed by casting it in the sweetspot. There is a particular range to cast this spell at where the opponent only has like 0.1 seconds to decide to run or backstab you, or they get hit if they tried to get the stab.

    Well, I was joking about pyros being a no-no... just in case. And I know you can cast it w/o getting BS'd. But, I don't think it's realistic to cast it, not get BS'd and land it. That is unless you have a lot of help (environment, other threats). If it is feasible to land a firestorm spell with any regularity in a straight up fight, I must not be the only one ignorant to that fact. Because, I don't see anyone try (ok, ok... one -- but it didn't go too well for him lol ). The worst thing that's happened to me in that situation is I had to back off and couldn't hit him with an arrow while he was casting. As a phantom, I've been trapped in a narrow walkway by a couple of dense hosts. But, that's what I mean by a lot of help.

    Forum Pirate wrote:You got parried, you had it coming. DOA, MvC, Burst limit, and many more have mechanics similar to the toggle escape to prevent insta-kill stun chains, and the toggle escape (intentional or not) is the souls version at the moment. Be glad its there too, or the zweihander/mura would be the only weapons anyone ever used.

    I somehow doubt that toggle escape is supposed to be there, though you're right you'd have to ask the design team to know for sure. So fine, I don't like the move myself but as I said it's not that big of a deal in and of itself. However, to parry immediately out of that is total :dung:. I did NOT have it coming. Lag is part of the game, sure. But he turned it into a game of lag where swords and shields were a minor inconvenience instead of the other way around.

    I'm not glad it's there because a lot people, instead of using stun-lock weapons, use fast roll or worse ninja flip. Constantly dodging is annoying, but fine. However, the I-frames are stupid... I can swing right through a guy over and over and then get BS'd. So, I'm left to stand there and hope against the guys who don't do anything but roll-stab. Maybe, I get lucky and hit them with a spell or sword and stun-lock them. But, if you can just toggle escape/parry why not just make a DWGR/hornet ring, BS-fish build with no fear of getting hit w/out countering for huge damage? With practice you could turn getting stun-locked into a dangerous offensive tactic...

    BTW; if dark magic works well against those builds I will gain a lot respect for dark magic. Though I get the feeling it doesn't.


    _________________

    Messengers of Velka proudly allied with: The Exiled  Coffee! MoV Chat Coffee!
    avatar
    Rynn
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4689
    Reputation : 257
    Join date : 2012-01-26

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Rynn on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:41 pm

    reim0027 wrote:
    Rynn wrote:the only ranged weapon i despise is the avalyn, it's completely stupid and mini-max. shouldn't be in the game because it's -too- good of a punishment.

    Rynn wrote:
    I used it once in PvP and was like "LOL I'M SUCH A **** NEVER AGAIN!"

    Aren't you debating on making a 40/40 build that uses an Avelyn?
    I'd like recorded proof of my point for the future.

    Shrug
    Honestly.
    avatar
    Rynn
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4689
    Reputation : 257
    Join date : 2012-01-26

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Rynn on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:13 pm

    Roll backstab is the worst thing in this game. Specifically because it's what people that bow seem to love doing. I see it all the time on the rare occasion I try to host in the burg. i always frown when i see it. I'd rather fight a dark magic user, a backstab fisher, or even a set of 3 gankers with 4000 HP due to modding then fight a -single- roll backstabber.
    avatar
    Hugh_G_Johnson
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 775
    Reputation : 42
    Join date : 2013-01-09
    Location : World of the Guilty

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:09 pm

    Rynn wrote:Roll backstab is the worst thing in this game. Specifically because it's what people that bow seem to love doing. I see it all the time on the rare occasion I try to host in the burg. i always frown when i see it. I'd rather fight a dark magic user, a backstab fisher, or even a set of 3 gankers with 4000 HP due to modding then fight a -single- roll backstabber.

    I hope you're not offended to have such an ignorant person completely agree with you... silly

    No counter and the prevention is not attacking. 🇳🇴



    _________________

    Messengers of Velka proudly allied with: The Exiled  Coffee! MoV Chat Coffee!
    avatar
    Rynn
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4689
    Reputation : 257
    Join date : 2012-01-26

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Rynn on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:28 am

    And they act like perfect angels while they are doing it. When a person starts doing it I crystal out, or I run away and when they follow destroy them invasion esque rather than duel like.
    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:56 am

    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:snip

    A stunlock virtually garuntees 2 hits without the opponent getting a chance to do anything about it. Its YOUR job to know that the escape parry is a highly effective counter and adjust your swing timings or allow the opponent to escape the stun after the 2nd hit. If you continue attacking, the standard DKS risk/reward thing comes into play.

    The benifit to stunlocking is that 1 hit almost always allows one to score a second, often dealing 600+ and getting up to 900 without a bonus, where the dodgy kat users, even should they hit more than once, don't do enough poise damage to prevent your escape/counter attack.

    I repeat, you had it coming.


    As for, i frames, you are arguing against the dodge really having a purpose. Outside of a full fledged 3d combat simulator, mechanics like i frames are necessary to simulate the act of a dodge, which can happen under, over or around attacks while still in range IRL, not just by jumping back out of its reach.


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.
    avatar
    reim0027
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Posts : 6715
    Reputation : 381
    Join date : 2012-01-28

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:27 am

    If you learn toggle escape into a parry, you will pwn R1 spammers. If they don't stunlock you, you can parry them. If they stunlock you, you can parry them. Win-win.


    _________________


    PSN usernames: reim0027_2,   reim0027_3,  and reim0027_5.  Skype ID: reim0027  
    Tour of Lordran Soul Levels  //  Official Wiki Fight Club // Forest Invasion Soul Levels // Low Level Invasion Rules
    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:54 am

    Unless they dead angle, or anticipate the parry and bs you/cast or just delay the next swing half a second, to catch you at the end of the parry animation.

    Thats my point. Stunlocks are perfectly viable and very dangerous, but without the toggle escape/toggle parry they're essentialy 0 risk auto kills once that first hit lands. Thats not a good thing to put in any game.

    The toggle adds the essential risk/reward to the equation. One can stunlock someone to death, but they run the risk of toggle parries and other counter attacks (kick+GC, for example.)

    Scrubs will complain about it, because they can't escape. Scrubs will complain about the escape, because they can't rely on that 1 hit always ending in the opponents death.

    Don't be a scrub. The toggle is an important and benificial part of the meta, that adds risk to a god tier ability. Know it, know how to subvert it and better yourself, rather than labling it cheap or an abuse of lag. (its not btw, the toggle parry works the same as a setup parry)


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.
    avatar
    reim0027
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Posts : 6715
    Reputation : 381
    Join date : 2012-01-28

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:40 pm

    I agree with you there. I think the toggle function is very important, as long as we have weapons that stunlock.


    _________________


    PSN usernames: reim0027_2,   reim0027_3,  and reim0027_5.  Skype ID: reim0027  
    Tour of Lordran Soul Levels  //  Official Wiki Fight Club // Forest Invasion Soul Levels // Low Level Invasion Rules
    avatar
    Hugh_G_Johnson
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 775
    Reputation : 42
    Join date : 2013-01-09
    Location : World of the Guilty

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:31 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Thats my point. Stunlocks are perfectly viable and very dangerous, but without the toggle escape/toggle parry they're essentialy 0 risk auto kills once that first hit lands. Thats not a good thing to put in any game.

    The toggle adds the essential risk/reward to the equation. One can stunlock someone to death, but they run the risk of toggle parries and other counter attacks (kick+GC, for example.)

    I look at it differently. I'd say dodging with the I-frames is viable, but without stun-locks there's no risk for low poise, roll-spamming characters. Kind of like calling people scrubs anonymously on an internet forum; it's easy and risk free.

    I honestly think that '0 risk auto kills' are balanced, referring to stun-locks at least. You basically have to get lucky to hit anyone fast rolling with a moderate sized weapon and if you switch to a quick weapon you can still find yourself waving at air often and you're doing less damage possibly without the chance to stagger now. Toggling out and retreating would be ok, but to be able to perform an unpreventable*, uncounterable counter to the only action the is a pure counter to low poise fast-roll dodge spam just seems unbalanced to me.

    Should I have to give up a stun-lock now because I might get riposted in the very next frame? So... attack one swing at a time between I-frames, while avoiding the roll-stab, hit him with Lloyd's (again, between I-frames) so he can't heal, stay close enough to prevent him using humanity (again, while avoiding the roll-stab), somehow kill him before the Lloyd's runs out -- or hit him with Lloyd's over and over. All that assuming I never have to worry about getting attacked other than the roll-stab (that is admittedly extremely possible, however)...

    Meanwhile: the first roll-stab he hits will take probably between 50-80% of my HP, give or take. And unless I just stand there, he's incompetent or I'm very lucky he will get the roll stab. Maybe I'm crazy; but that doesn't seem very balanced.

    *I refer specifically to the act of stun-locking, not general combat where i could chose not to stun-lock.


    _________________

    Messengers of Velka proudly allied with: The Exiled  Coffee! MoV Chat Coffee!
    avatar
    reim0027
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Posts : 6715
    Reputation : 381
    Join date : 2012-01-28

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:42 pm

    The thing about stunlock is it takes NO skill to do, and without toggle escape, it takes one lucky hit and you're stunned. In some cases, infinitely, until the stamina wears off.


    _________________


    PSN usernames: reim0027_2,   reim0027_3,  and reim0027_5.  Skype ID: reim0027  
    Tour of Lordran Soul Levels  //  Official Wiki Fight Club // Forest Invasion Soul Levels // Low Level Invasion Rules
    avatar
    Saturday-Saint
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 961
    Reputation : 48
    Join date : 2012-12-09
    Age : 25

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:04 am

    Fortunately toggle escape also takes no skill to do.


    _________________
    Joking aside.
    avatar
    reim0027
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Posts : 6715
    Reputation : 381
    Join date : 2012-01-28

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:10 am

    It takes a little more skill than R1-R1-R1.


    _________________


    PSN usernames: reim0027_2,   reim0027_3,  and reim0027_5.  Skype ID: reim0027  
    Tour of Lordran Soul Levels  //  Official Wiki Fight Club // Forest Invasion Soul Levels // Low Level Invasion Rules
    avatar
    Rynn
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4689
    Reputation : 257
    Join date : 2012-01-26

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Rynn on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:20 am

    Stunlocking is fine: The problem was greatswords initiated a stunlock with virtually no time to react: which is why they were nerfed, curved greatswords, maces, and axes, all give appropriate time to react.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:35 am