Magic spammers? Really?

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    Sentiel
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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:53 am

    reim0027 wrote:It takes a little more skill than R1-R1-R1.
    -> - -> - ->
    At least for me.
    They spam R1, I spam d-pad. big grin

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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:51 am

    Its not unavoidable at all, I just explained several ways to punish a toggle escape parry that one sees coming, not to mention dead angles rendering the parry attempt useless. R1-R1-back stab is a tactic I use frequently to avoid being parried, and using a zweihander that totals 1900 damage unbuffed, and against heavy armor. A standard kat bs is 600-800 damage, which is usually about 1/3rd of a builds hp even at sl 82, so don't give me that 50-80% bs.

    Also consider that low poise= low defense, so not only are you virtually garunteed to land at least 2 hits, but they'll do more damage than the fast rollers attacks are going to.

    On top of that, fighting unlocked can and will wreck most roll stab attempts, even from good players. Even then, there is a fairly specific distance necessary for a roll stab, to far overshoots and not far enough gets one hit (and potentially stunlocked) so avoiding roll stabs is as simple as spacing properly.


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:01 am

    reim0027 wrote:The thing about stunlock is it takes NO skill to do, and without toggle escape, it takes one lucky hit and you're stunned. In some cases, infinitely, until the stamina wears off.

    It doesn't take any skill to dodge, either. And it does take a lucky hit to stun someone, because it's near impossible to do with the I-frames. I actually said in my last post that you basically have to get lucky to hit them. However, it also takes what I'd call a 'skill gap'; either a blatant mistake on their part or good timing (and luck) on your part. Thus this:

    Forum Pirate wrote:Also consider that low poise= low defense, so not only are you virtually garunteed to land at least 2 hits, but they'll do more damage than the fast rollers attacks are going to.

    makes perfect sense to me. I don't know what's wrong with that. Why does something logical and fair need an artificial counter?


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:29 am

    It sounds like (key words being sounds like) you simply attack in an overly predictable manner.

    I'm no demi-god, ask around, but I win the vast majority of my matches (a lesser majority against fellow forum goers, but still a majority) while mid-rolling with a DGM and a crossbow. The "have to get lucky to hit because of i-frames is a lame excuse that comes off as frustrated whining. You don't need to get lucky, you need to be clever and not simply r1 spam as soon as the opponent is in range hoping for a stunlock. One can engineer situations that result in a hit, even with incredibility slow weapons, without a blatant mistake on the opponents part. The simplest strategy is the extremely basic concept of trading up (exchanging blows, using a weapon that deals more damage than the opponents)

    Its not that low poise= low defense needs a counter. I never said that. What I said is that the auto kill stunlocks formerly possessed by greatswords but still present in several other weapon needs a counter.


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:44 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:A standard kat bs is 600-800 damage, which is usually about 1/3rd of a builds hp even at sl 82, so don't give me that 50-80% bs.

    🇳🇴 I'm not BS'ing you. I don't know what effect katanas have on the Chinese tea market... but I haven't seen more then 3 or 4 katanas in maybe a month. But, I have seen dozens of hornet ringed, great club BS fishers...

    Spoiler:
    Their back-stabs do more than 600-800 damage.

    Also; do you really have 1800-2400 HP at level 82??? Who's trying to pitch :dung: to whom?

    Spoiler:
    Fun fact: the minimum SL for over 2400 HP (2403) is 68 with 77 vitality, mask of the mother, tiny being's ring and the ring of F&P (new abbreviation -- start using it!)


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:25 am

    http://mmdks.com/1ea4 Fun fact, its even easier with dex because of the low stamina investment means a full 160 stamina is overkill. Also notice I said about 1/3rd, not exactly 1/3rd.

    The fast rolling great club guys really only have 2 attacks, the roll r1 and a crit. That makes them incredibly predictable and so fairly easily countered. A simple crossbow will devastate these people, especially if you've got the leo ring, nevermind the counter bs, counter parry, pivot parry, kicking, baiting, casting, kiting, and previously mentioned unlocked fighting all being more than capable of not only fending off a roll bs, but turning the tables. Not only that, but some of these can result in a counter damage stunlock resulting in massive damage. using a mura as an example, your damage from 2 unlocked r1s could net you upwards 800 damage.

    On top of that, the heavy weapon lowers their durability below even most dex fast rollers, making your counters even more effective.


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:03 am

    It does tick me off pretty good, because I don't spam R1 unless I have an opening to do so. I think if someone's staggered that's a hell of an opening. I don't see why someone who's staggered should all of a sudden become "un-staggered" out of nowhere. I'm mad about it because I was spamming R1 at that point only because there's nothing my opponent should have been able to do about it. I really don't spam R1 and hardly ever get parried. Oh, I will take two swings occasionally if it looks good and there seems to be no parry threat. But, I actually miss a lot of stun-locks from being a one-hitter quitter.

    And to be fair I did mention something about a 'skill gap' when fighting fast-rollers. It just feels like there's always some luck because of those I-frames. I can get 4 or 5 hits that look and sound legit, but don't do any damage and then go swing and go: 'oh, god... whiff" and watch 350 come off his bar. The ultimate point is fast-rollers are difficult to hit and have low poise and low defense. There should be a trade-off for being able to dodge so easily. Not a get-out-of-jail-free-plus-revenge-on-the-guy-that-put-you-there-legitimately card.

    ...Did you notice I said 50-80% give or take?


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:29 am

    Its not "get out of jail free". Its get out of jail short 600+ hp, and 600 is if they're very lucky and quick If anything the stunlock is "get out of jail free" because, excluding the toggle, there's absolutely nothing to be done about it. The toggle parry isn't any different than toggling and casting db to Ohko you or gc for 800 damage or using the unlocked backstep to bs you. Its a counter attack, to punish your overly aggressive combo attack. If you've cautious (as you know) and/or observant not only can you thwart it, you can turn it around. You have the advantage because they HAVE to react to you with a toggle, and it will almost always be the 2rd or 3rd swing (else they risk losing outright or being in a virtually un-salvagable position) which leaves them at your mercy. You know what they have to do and and when they have to do it, so can counter it before they even start.


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by lorenzo110 on Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:39 pm

    Dutchy, all you can do is laugh at people like this. The way I see it is this way. They needed every buff in the game to fight. Its like in bowling, when your a poor bowler they spot you a handicap. LOL. Thats what these people are basically relying on...handicaps to fight. Anyone can use them and it by far does not make them very good players at all. Not even average players. I tend to laugh at people like this because they have convinced themselves that they are great players because they use these methods and have high win percentages because of it. But take that away from them and they cant last 5 seconds in a fair fight. It is what it is. Dont let try hard players discourage you because think of it this way...they had to use every rediculous buff and spell spamming twop method to fight you in order to win. Shows how much more advanced a player you are then them. Just my opin.
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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Dutchy on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:44 am

    Although I wouldn't call myself a great player, I appreciate the sentiment. It's a good way of looking at the situation happy


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:51 am

    No its not, its a biased scrub way of looking at the situation. Mages have magic. Unlike melee builds, their casts are limited. (a melee build can r1 spam for an essentialy unlimited duration) If they don't kill you with magic, they're screwed. Not only is magic spam begging to get bsd (like r1 spam, excluding a stunlock) it is also wasteful. If you can't handle something as basic as a flurry, you deserve the loss.


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Dutchy on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:41 am

    Your rather found of using "scrub" to denounce other users. I understand it's a bit biased but would you not agree, that rather than being **** Mcdickface about being beaten i.e. Sending hate messages, it is more productive to just shrug it off. And, this guy refers to the more "cheap" tactics like TWoP spamming. Buffs aren't necessarily an "OP" thing (I use them and still lose a fair bit). Anywho, the reason I originally created this thread was to basically say that, every build has a weakness, but complete mage builds have sufficiently less weaknesses. Tank == Dark bead/dark orb, Light == Pursuers, soul spear until out of stamina then dark bead, Even if they run out of their firing magic, they can still depend on CMW to make any weapon on them powerful as all buggery. It just seems like an "Easy" build


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:50 am

    I see a lot of arguments in the fashion of "as soon as they run out of spells they're screwed".

    While I agree to this, we shouldn't forget that mages have acess to three VERY good weapons. MLGS, MLBH and Velka's Rapier.

    A good MLGS user is threat far greater than a caster imho.

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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:24 am

    The crest shield shuts them down, and the stat points (for velkas and the mlgs) detract from durability or caster damage, the mlbh is completely incapable of deadangling. Spells are generally difficult to hit with and prone to being interrupted (which deals counter damage to the lightly armored low hp class). VOS/gmb/flash sweat completely shut down casters. Its not that they're not good, its that they're not the easy going, smooth sailing god class they're made out to be. I have 2 and they're significantly more difficult to play, especially if my opponent is any good.

    A light build can walk, backwards and avoid pursuiers, dodging any direction but straight back or forward to avoid css. Tanks can block or roll through db/orb and roll r1s with heavy weapons hurt.

    I've said scrub all of 3 times ever, but I'll refer you to why I'm saying it and what I'm refering to. (I haven't actually called anybody a scrub btw, I've referenced viewpoints as scrub)

    http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Dutchy on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:33 am

    But by extension, their mentality and therefore them. So essentially being a scrub is a superior's way of classing people who enjoy any form of morality in their tactics. I do not "play to win" I "Play for fun with some winning along the way then maybe some slight pessimistic whinging to anyone who will listen" So then yes, I am a "scrub". Although judging by your signature, I doubt my words will have much weight with you. So I end this little Parley here. Good day sir.


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:43 am

    A scrun mentality, reguarding any individual subject, does not make one a scrub. Neither is being a scrub necessarily an inferior state, but being upset (due to a scrub viewpoint) that others do not follow ones own rules of conduct is detrimental to both the person in question and possibly the person/people being complained about (and this is something scrubs are notorious for)

    The solution then, for the benefit of both parties is simple. Play only in arranged matches with people who share your rules, accept that people don't share your view and have your fun without regard to the opponents play, or change the scrub viewpoint. That, BTW, is what my signature means.


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:48 am

    Would you kindly stop being so serious guys?
    I'm getting sleepy just reading all of this.


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:59 am

    Lol. I was just perusing this since there's not a lot going on and was wondering how these threads get so long all the time. I actually skipped pages 2-7 to be honest.

    Remember one thing and one thing only and I think you might start seeing these threads in a different light. By the way, I think it was Saturday-Saint on page one who pretty much nailed it:

    The player on the other end of that fight is also a human being. (hopefully not a super gaming robot bent on world domination......that rarely happens)

    Why does that matter? Well they're chock full of the same motivations as you are.

    But back to my point to remember.

    That guy giving you the challenge is still a human being. So even if you find his build frustrating remember that there's things that he finds frustrating too. He's been there too.

    As the Saint said: How do you know he doesn't have fun with that build? I giggled the first time I blasted someone with Karmic Justice. I loled and rofled (not literally) when I surrounded a host with about eight or nine Skarekrow Tree Descendants.

    Bottom line is that you have no idea what motivates that person. All you can control is you.

    It probably sounds like I'm being hard on Dutchy and that's not my point at all. Dutchy has a right to be frustrated and complain just as much as magic spammers have the right to enjoy magic spamming.

    Another reframing idea:
    I always hear the argument, "I just like to have fun and getting one shot isn't fun." Really? It's not. I got one shot by the undead dragon in the Valley of Drakes. Sucka pimp slapped me soooo hard for trying to get up in his grill! What did I do? I came back with a ton of arrows and showed him who's boss is what I did.

    I got jacked up by Capra, O&S, Four Kings, Gaping Dragon, etc. etc. I got cursed by Seath as I struck the killing blow. I've gotten hate crimed by a gang of hollows in a church.

    All of these were things I learned from and improved on. Now I commit the hate crimes.

    So you have trouble with magic users? Well well well.....Dark Souls is giving you another challenge to overcome. Kinda it's Modus Operandi I believe.

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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by densetsushun on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:07 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:
    The player on the other end of that fight is also a human being. (hopefully not a super gaming robot bent on world domination......that rarely happens)
    Unless the player is Japanese or Korean. Then they're a super gaming robot bent on world domination. Oh, and Blizzard. silly


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:11 pm

    This ^ is irrefutable

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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:00 pm

    You articulated my point better than I did skare (at least the part of it relevant to my signature.)

    Thanks, I have trouble in that area. Things always seem so obvious they needs no explanation, but it never turns out that way.


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:23 pm

    Anytime Pirate! I know by now that you rarely if ever intend to offend someone and everyone else in the thread seemed to be in the same position (as in not trying to offend).

    These are always tough topics though since opinions are all over the spectrum. My personal stance is that everyone's right which makes for a fun conversation.

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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:39 pm

    I love how blunt and neutral you are, Pirate. It's very practical. I've also adopted your sig as a motto for pretty much all mp games. silly


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:26 pm

    Thanks, I try, lol.

    I actually don't try, its my natural way of processing information. I'm incapable of any another approach (though I can be less blunt, its just very difficult and time consuming,) which causes problems.

    I do try to be helpful though, hence my bothering to argue at all and unwillingness to attribute a quality (scrub, kind, ect) to anyone.

    Perspective is everything.


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    Re: Magic spammers? Really?

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:31 pm

    You sound like a very practical person. I appreciate that. If only the world had more people like that.
    I remember getting mad at you back in, what, July? I was auditioning to rank up in the NK and I was fighting you and I got angry when you backstabbed me. I laugh every time now. silly

    Back on topic, I like seeing how long I can last against magic spammers, as my PvP skills are average.


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