What's up with the Undead Burg?

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    What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Sanhedrim on Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:56 pm

    I've never seen it discussed anywhere; maybe it's so patently obvious that nobody feels the need to talk about it, but I wanna! Why is it there? Who built it?

    So I think we have loads of Undead who are persecuted in the world beyond Lordran which is, for them, a state I dare call most unfortunate. Now, it's either because of a score of prophecies (Dark Tales, Chosen Undead, yadda yadda) or just because it's well known that a) little to no living humans... live... in Lordran and b) most of the gods have left.

    ....

    Anyway, Lordran is the promised land! No one there to burn you at the stake. So these undead, ya know, they build themselves a burg. An Undead Burg, to be precise. And there they lived in peace. Or that's how it was supposed to be. With so many undead concentrated in a single location, you're bound to have a humanity shortage. 0_0

    So the citizens go hollow, first one by one, then en masse. There are some corpses impaled and on fire where you fight your first Iron Boar, they could have been hollows rounded up and executed by still sane citizens.

    Griggs and Laurentius were caught in the middle when everything went to hell which is why we find them where we find them. The docile hollows in the New Londo Ruins are people who escaped from the Undead Burg. Same with the guys at the Sunlight Altar. They hid from the rampaging hollows only to go hollow themselves. You arrive in Lordran shortly after things have quieted down.

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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by User1 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:19 pm

    Well, I always had a mini-story behind the Burg. That it was made for a place for Undead to live in, but the curse got to them, and picked them off. Undead who feared the results of the curse decided to kill the Hollowed. It seems that some of the local authority went Hollow too, with guards that are Hollowed there too. I came to a conclusion that the curse slowly killed off all of the Burg, but the Undead did their best to prevent it. Kind of a sad ending to the story, for a place that gets overlooked a lot.
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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Shkar on Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:05 pm

    New Londo was a city of men (not Undead). Why not the burg?


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by GrinTwist on Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:23 pm

    It seems to me as though the Undead Burg was likely a place where the average soldier would patrol. The lower part of the burg would be where the actual people would live. There really aren't any specifics on why there are so many hollow soldiers in the Burg.

    However I could imagine that it played out the same way the land of Balder did because it was overrun by the undead. Remember that the undead are like zombies, the person that dies turns into an undead. It is most likely because of some form of civil outrage that ended up killing many people that large groups of undead started appearing in the burg before overrunning everything.


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by SpecialNewb on Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:42 pm

    Shkar wrote:New Londo was a city of men (not Undead). Why not the burg?
    I've always heard it was the other way around. Where is it described as a regular city? That sounds interesting.

    I consider the burg a regular town. Built by living humans who serve the gods. The families of Gwen's maidens, whoever makes the beds, sweeps the floors and cuts wood in Anor Londo would live there I assume.

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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Sanhedrim on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:11 pm

    Hm, I just scoured the wiki for dialogue pertaining to New Londo and found an interesting tidbit of information. The Crestfallen Warrior explicitly calls New Londo an "Undead city."

    Anyway, I'm sticking with my theory that the Burg was built by and for the Undead.

    SpecialNewb wrote:Built by living humans who serve the gods.

    But which gods? There's a shrine dedicated to the Firstborn and in the church, we have Oswald, a follower of Velka. Both appear to be "outlawed" gods. The Vow of Silence refers to Velka as a rogue deity and we all know about the Firstborn.
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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by SpecialNewb on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:51 pm

    Sanhedrim wrote:But which gods? There's a shrine dedicated to the Firstborn and in the church, we have Oswald, a follower of Velka. Both appear to be "outlawed" gods. The Vow of Silence refers to Velka as a rogue deity and we all know about the Firstborn.
    Good question. Do we REALLY know that the maiden-child statues are the Firstborn? It's a reasonable guess but I can't recall if there's actually evidence of that and the Sunlight Altar statue seems more like that of a warrior.

    I would guess that living so close to Anor Londo, the people would do what was needed to appease the gods up there. Maybe that's why they wrecked the Sunlight Altar statue. It would be interesting to know when those places were abandoned, before or after the burg.
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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Orango19 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:58 pm

    It has come to my attention that some of you have no idea what a Burg is. lol

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borough

    Gonna give you guys a quick History class. Burgs are like unnofficial cities built outside of a castle's walls. They were built there, because they housed the Bourgeoisie, the original capitalists. They were Traders and Artisans that cared for commerce and money. lol

    Given the Religious views inside castles (yeah, Christianity, I am talking about you); greed was considered evil. So the bourgeoisies were left with only the option of building their own city, outside the castle walls.

    ---

    Technically, a Burg is a city of outcasts, forbidden of living inside the actual cities (the castles).
    The Undead Burg is literally what it is called; it is an Undead Burg. The Undead from both Anor Londo and New Londo were kicked out of their cities, and moved to the Burg (a city outside Anor Londo's Wall and New Londo's Wall / Ceiling LOL).
    It is an Undead city, home to outcasts from both "Londos".


    ---

    Furthering it even more...

    New Londo might have been the original Anor Londo Burg. The Undead exiled from Anor Londo, built a city of their own, outside Anor Londo's Wall, but still inside Lordran's country Great Wall. A Burg might be home to outcasts, but it still holds relations to the castle and its Lord; paying tributes and stuff. However a burg has idependency, usually granted by the Lord.

    Gwyn appointed 4 Undeads that met his best interests, and named them the Four Kings. Some time later, they got corrupt, New Londo was flooded and the survivors fled uphill (a common move to anyone escaping a flood).

    They founded the Undead Burg. But the world was already f.ucked up by then. Gwyn was already inside the Kiln, so there was noone to be appointed the new leader. The Undeads couldn't be *** to name their new city, because it was constantly attacked by other countries trying to reach Anor Londo (e.g: Balder). Its control was slipped from hand to hand. First the New Londeans, then the Balder that occupied their Church as main base; then rogue Demons from Izalith, and for last, YOU and Oswald, but there isn't much to rule anymore.

    The God of War was exiled after Gwyns departure, and apparently after the Burg's creation; because there was originally a temple to him there. Meaning his exile occurred after the downfall of the Four Kings, and he was probably considered a deity by the time of Oolacile events in the DLC.

    Maybe Juniper is not another name for Gwynevere, but actually the First born's name?


    I totally derailed this.


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Shkar on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:05 pm

    Sanhedrim wrote:Hm, I just scoured the wiki for dialogue pertaining to New Londo and found an interesting tidbit of information. The Crestfallen Warrior explicitly calls New Londo an "Undead city."

    Anyway, I'm sticking with my theory that the Burg was built by and for the Undead.

    I'd forgotten that quote, so you are probably right about that. Although, he could have been talking about when the undead curse started up and the darkwraiths appeared. After all, humans found little use for humanity before they became undead; that means it's unlikely they would murder people for it.


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by SpecialNewb on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:53 pm

    Burg = old german word for Castle. It has nothing to do with there being a town around the castle or not, save that towns often appeared around castles for reasons of economic and personal security.
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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Orango19 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:17 pm

    SpecialNewb wrote:Burg = old german word for Castle. It has nothing to do with there being a town around the castle or not, save that towns often appeared around castles for reasons of economic and personal security.

    *burg is German for fort. Like Londoburg = Fort of Londo / Castle of Londo.

    Burg (German) by itself is Borough. Believe me, it is much easier for people native to other languages to recognize that. You can ask any person that English is not their primary language to back that up for me.

    The English words for the boroughs and the people that lived there, simply don't translate the original meaning. It is sad, but true.


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Lancelot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:51 pm

    Shkar wrote:New Londo was a city of men (not Undead). Why not the burg?

    I feel as if this pretty much answers the Burg. +1


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by SpecialNewb on Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:03 am

    Orango19 wrote:*burg is German for fort. Like Londoburg = Fort of Londo / Castle of Londo.

    Burg (German) by itself is Borough. Believe me, it is much easier for people native to other languages to recognize that. You can ask any person that English is not their primary language to back that up for me.

    The English words for the boroughs and the people that lived there, simply don't translate the original meaning. It is sad, but true.
    The original word means fortified settlement so it works for both. Certainly towns were fortified in some manner and some forts grew into towns. I see what you are getting at when you say it (ed: Burg by itself) points specifically to a settlement, but to say that merchants and artisans were outcasts from castles is going a bit far.

    In regards to the Undead Burg, I think it was a protected (fortified) settlement outside Anor Londo. It was for people that worked in Anor Londo or in some other way did the bidding of the gods. There are only so many of them and lots of work needs to be done (building Anor Londo for one!).
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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Orango19 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:17 am

    SpecialNewb wrote:The original word means fortified settlement so it works for both. Certainly towns were fortified in some manner and some forts grew into towns. I see what you are getting at when you say it (ed: Burg by itself) points specifically to a settlement, but to say that merchants and artisans were outcasts from castles is going a bit far.

    In regards to the Undead Burg, I think it was a protected (fortified) settlement outside Anor Londo. It was for people that worked in Anor Londo or in some other way did the bidding of the gods. There are only so many of them and lots of work needs to be done (building Anor Londo for one!).

    I really did not want to get too much in depth in my little History Class. lol
    I highly recommend you to read about the people that lived in the Burgs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie


    They were indeed outcasts. Remember, it is the Middle Ages; God is supreme and the occidental society is separated between nobles and the common rabble.
    A normal Castle is more like a farm, than the legendary thing movies and stories tell about. There was the Castle, where the Lord and the nobles lived. Soldiers and Knights all belong to the noble class. Their servants also lived in the Castle (maidens, blacksmiths, craftsmen and etc).

    And there was the peasants; they took care of the farms and the woods inside the Castle walls. They lived to serve their Lord and maintain the system.

    HOWEVER, over time a 3rd group was born: the bourgeoisie. They unlike the peasant and the Castle servants, wanted independence from the crown. They became traders, and slowly became as rich as kings, sometimes even more powerful. The Church and the Crown, prohibited "commerce" within the Castle walls; because Greed is bad. So the bourgeoisie created Burgs, outside the walls to trade freely.

    Finally the part you were worried about: Of course they wouldn't just stay outside, unprotected. So Burgs usually had walls and keeps of their own. Mercenary armies were not unheard of, since the bourgeoisie was rich enough to pay for them.

    When the Lords noticed Burgs produced quite a lot of money; they started to take taxes and officially support it; by protecting it and etc. However a Burg kept being somewhat of a independent city inside a kingdom.

    A Kingdom could have more than one Burg, depending on its size. They were usually located at crossroads, ports or even, just outside the Castle walls.


    ---

    Substitute bourgeoisie for Undeath, and ta-dah! We have the Undead Burg story, and why there isn't Silver Knights protecting the city.

    Church says Undeath is bad. Undeads are kicked out of Anor Londo; make a city of their own (a Burg) in the crossroad between Oolacile and Lordran - my guess is that New Londo came first. The city is flooded; they create a second city: Undead Burg.

    Kings feared the bourgeoisie's power. Gwyn feared the Undead.

    In the end, bourgeoisie would step down their Kings and create Republics. The French Revolution being the first example. Which started with the people freeing enemies of the Crown from a prison.

    The Dark regardless of your choice will prevail; and the Revolution (even Logan calls your actions that) starts with your prison break. A prison that holds enemies of the Crown - the Undead.


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Shkar on Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:31 am

    Gwyn saw to the extermination of the dragons, the containment of the demons, and the cleansing on New Londo.

    You don't think he could have purged a small city that's located just down the mountain?


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Orango19 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:43 am

    Because that's the point of Bourgeoisie. Kings could exterminate them with their armies. But it was more profitable to have them on your side. Give leaders of their own to them, make them love you; worship your religion and ta-dah. You have them working for you even if you do not allow their activities inside your Castle walls.

    Gwyn was being diplomatic. And while he was around, things sounded peaceful. After his departure; sh.it happened.


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by SpecialNewb on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:00 am

    Orango19 wrote:I really did not want to get too much in depth in my little History Class. lol
    I highly recommend you to read about the people that lived in the Burgs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie


    They were indeed outcasts. Remember, it is the Middle Ages; God is supreme and the occidental society is separated between nobles and the common rabble.
    A normal Castle is more like a farm, than the legendary thing movies and stories tell about. There was the Castle, where the Lord and the nobles lived. Soldiers and Knights all belong to the noble class. Their servants also lived in the Castle (maidens, blacksmiths, craftsmen and etc).

    And there was the peasants; they took care of the farms and the woods inside the Castle walls. They lived to serve their Lord and maintain the system.

    HOWEVER, over time a 3rd group was born: the bourgeoisie. They unlike the peasant and the Castle servants, wanted independence from the crown. They became traders, and slowly became as rich as kings, sometimes even more powerful. The Church and the Crown, prohibited "commerce" within the Castle walls; because Greed is bad. So the bourgeoisie created Burgs, outside the walls to trade freely.

    Finally the part you were worried about: Of course they wouldn't just stay outside, unprotected. So Burgs usually had walls and keeps of their own. Mercenary armies were not unheard of, since the bourgeoisie was rich enough to pay for them.

    When the Lords noticed Burgs produced quite a lot of money; they started to take taxes and officially support it; by protecting it and etc. However a Burg kept being somewhat of a independent city inside a kingdom.

    A Kingdom could have more than one Burg, depending on its size. They were usually located at crossroads, ports or even, just outside the Castle walls.
    I'm more interested in the historical discussion as opposed to how it relates to the game. I've read your link both today and long before. I'm not calling myself a medievalist but I have read a great many books on the period from 750-1550. I couldn't agree more about castles. I'm thinking a hill surrounded by a log wall (if not just a dirt wall) not ramparts of stone.

    Some towns had previously existed since the roman period even if they'd declined. New towns were founded, but they were founded because that's where the annual fair was or because of a good defensive location (ED: or because the nearby castle deterred bandits along the trade route). For much of the period in general the bourgeoisie supported the crown against the excesses of landed nobility. The opposition happened much later.

    I'd be interested in reading sources that say that towns appeared outside castles because commerce was prohibited within the walls by authorities because of greed.


    Last edited by SpecialNewb on Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Shkar on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:38 am

    Orango19 wrote:

    Kings feared the bourgeoisie's power. Gwyn feared the Undead.

    In the end, bourgeoisie would step down their Kings and create Republics. The French Revolution being the first example. Which started with the people freeing enemies of the Crown from a prison.

    The Dark regardless of your choice will prevail; and the Revolution (even Logan calls your actions that) starts with your prison break. A prison that holds enemies of the Crown - the Undead.

    You specifically said that Gwyn feared the undead and that they were traitors. Understand, Gwyn is not some lowly duke or some young princeling grown up in times of peace. He is an absolute monarch so far as we know and, above that, is literally viewed as a God. He is the absolute power of his realm.

    As I said before, he took matters into his own hands. He exterminated the dominate species on the planet, contained an unstoppable legion of chaos, and halted the spread of the darkest corruption in the world. He saw what he perceived to be either the end of the world, or the end of his reign, and he took steps (including the sacrifice of his own being) to try to halt it.

    Understand, Gwyn was not the kind of man to let a matter such as Fear rule him. If he saw something as a great enough threat to scare him, he would crush it, before it could crush him.


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Acarnatia on Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:33 pm

    And apparently Gwyn didn't do a very successful job. The Demons are still there, the Flame is on the verge of dying, one nation after another is falling to the masses of Undead and the Gods have abandoned Anor Londo. The history gives the impression of desperation, not of (a) powerful god(s)/Lord(s) setting things right.
    Furthermore, if the Undead did make such a Burg, then I think they must not have been Hollow yet to have even been able to. People that are Hollow-crazy aren't thinking clearly enough to get along and build a whole city (or Burg). If they were, they wouldn't be such a problem. We also do know that Oolacile and New Londo definitely DID fall into Hollow-ish madness after they were created, not created as such. This supports the theory that these settlements existed peacefully before becoming what they have now. If Gwyn was really going to commit genocide of an entire city or two within his own land when they weren't even causing trouble yet, that would be a pretty good indicator of an evil dictator with an iron fist. If his theory regarding the creation of the undead settlements is anywhere near correct then Gwyn killing the people in them-at least before they go Hollow-would have been terrible for his reputation at least.


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by alchemydesign on Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:43 pm

    Well, back to the topic of the burg....it was built for the undead much as sen's fortress was built to cull the weaker from the chosen. We can see this in the undead merchant's dialogue. He used to live elsewhere until he went undead, then he migrated to the burg where he says he's safer, and no one throws stones at him anymore.

    My guess is that everything from the Asylum allllllll the way to Sen's was built specifically for the undead, thus it would be called, Undead Burg.
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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

    Post by Shkar on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:42 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:And apparently Gwyn didn't do a very successful job. The Demons are still there, the Flame is on the verge of dying, one nation after another is falling to the masses of Undead and the Gods have abandoned Anor Londo. The history gives the impression of desperation, not of (a) powerful god(s)/Lord(s) setting things right.
    Furthermore, if the Undead did make such a Burg, then I think they must not have been Hollow yet to have even been able to. People that are Hollow-crazy aren't thinking clearly enough to get along and build a whole city (or Burg). If they were, they wouldn't be such a problem. We also do know that Oolacile and New Londo definitely DID fall into Hollow-ish madness after they were created, not created as such. This supports the theory that these settlements existed peacefully before becoming what they have now. If Gwyn was really going to commit genocide of an entire city or two within his own land when they weren't even causing trouble yet, that would be a pretty good indicator of an evil dictator with an iron fist. If his theory regarding the creation of the undead settlements is anywhere near correct then Gwyn killing the people in them-at least before they go Hollow-would have been terrible for his reputation at least.

    We aren't talking about Lord of the Rings where Gandalf can show up at the last minute, or Harry Potter where a miraculous twist based on a prophecy can save the day. It's Dark Souls; the entire point is that things aren't easy, and that bad things happen.

    We have no real proof for how long of a time period there was during the events of Izalith and the linking of the flame. Certainly, we know they were fairly close, as both were in response to the flame, but we have no actual CONTEXT. It could be anything from a few days (or even hours) to a hundred years. Personally, I'm guessing it was somewhere in the vicinity of a few weeks or a few months. In that short of a time, would it really be fair to claim that Gwyn was a failure for being unable to completely eradicate an army of demons in what just happens to be a natural fortress?

    As for the flame, it's also not as if Gwyn was just lighting a torch or casting a spell. By all accounts, it seems as if it was tantamount to a person trying to keep the sun light by throwing themselves into it. It may work for a while, but it wouldn't be a permanent patch (although, I have begun to speculate that Gwyn CAN keep the fire going indefinitely, at it's current level).

    But my main point was that it's probable that if Gwyn had an actual fear of the undead in the city below, he would have done something about it. I'm not sure on your particular thoughts, but people on this forum can't just argue that life under the gods was terrible and cruel, but yet their king, despite a personal hatred and fear, even grants lordships to some of the humans below.


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    Re: What's up with the Undead Burg?

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