Is dark magic cheap?

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:39 am

    Sentiel wrote:
    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:Magic barrier requires that you have plenty of time to cast it and identify your opponent as a mage (or cast it anyway and not be able to use a blossom). Even then it doesn't last very long. Havel's great shield is a build killer and great magic shield means you need to have your catalyst in your main hand assuming you are a mage. Dodging pursuers in the forest is easy enough, but in a duel in the burg when you go from bowing to dodging there's no time to hit him with an arrow (and what would that do anyway?). Getting hit with the first cast is not a problem. Like I said; the problem is you're on the defensive from the start and have to battle just to get back on even footing tactically.
    GMB has about the same casting time as Pursuers.

    Identifying your opponent as a caster is easy. Wings on head.
    The best way is to aproach everybody as a caster. With 16 Int requirement, anyone can cast Dark Bead. Not to mention Pyromancies.

    Havel's is an option for Str builds.

    Rearrange your inventory and switch to a Catalyst to cast Strong Magic Shield just as you see Pursuers being casted. Alternatively, you can cast Hidden Body and Pursuers won't activate on you. Although this gives you a 30 second time limit to kill the caster, or you're screwed.

    Bow with Proper Bow and do it as the invader is on stairs, or when he has some distance to you, that way your animation will end before they can do anything.

    When in Burg, back up against a wall, wait for Pursuers to be very close and roll away. Purusers will hit the wall and destroy thmeselves.
    Alternatively, you can go to the small room leading to the balcony with Wooden Shield and interact with the door. You're invulnerable while opening/closing doors.

    Headshot with an arrow stops the casting if done in time and it will stagger any opponent regardless of their Poise. Even if not headshot, it will still do around 200 damage. While it's not enough and can't even be compared to the damage Pursuers may cause to you, if the caster has low Poise it will stagger him/her, thus interrupting the casting and it the worst case scenario, you will at least do some damage to them, so their cast isn't completely free.

    There's no problem to be on the defence as long as you're not one of those overly aggresive players. You should learn to adapt your playstyle and perhaps your gear to your current situation.

    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:I don't have the DLC, but I've heard from more than one person that using it is like back-stabbing yourself.
    I do have the crest shield on most of my builds, but I'm not worried about the moonlight greatsword -- I actually like to see people using that. I was just making the point that they are able to keep you on defensive. I have no problem using the :black-crystal: against people I know are going to pull some kinda crap or if I don't like what I see. I haven't thought of using it while I'm being chased by pursuers, though.
    Not having the DLC might be the biggest issue, because imo the best way to learn a techniques weakness is to use it yourself.

    If you're on defensive and your opponent rushes you with melee, disregard their spells and backstab them. They mostly won't expect it, it will provide you with invulnerability, which will take care of Pursuers and it will do serious damage to your opponents HP, turning the tides and making them go to the defensive.

    The best overall strategy is to wait for the caster to run out of casts. DB has 6 and Pursuers has 3 casts per Spell. The usual caster uses 12 DB, 3 Pursuers and if he's clever, he's got HCM, or CSS as backup, with are easy to evade and since they're with us from the beggining I won't cover those at all.

    Using :black-crystal: is a good idea. Better to frustrate oneself with something he/she hates to deal with, but I'm afraid it's too slow to escape Pursuers this way. Perhaps if you use it as the spell is being casted, or from a distance.

    ...so you think it's cheap, too? lol!

    Anything that will kill you in one shot for making one small mistake or getting a little bit of lag must be cheap. If the only way around that is to make a very specific build, with a specific setup and attunement... I would consider that to be cheap. Unless the designers were trying to force people to get the DLC to make more money, I think that dark magic's power surely exceeds its design.*

    As you said, just about anyone can cast dark bead so indentifying a caster is not easy. 'Havel's is a build killer' is another way of saying 'Havel's is an option for strength builds' to me. It forces you to compromise, armor, weapons and ring selection. Having 50 strength pretty much forces you to use a strength weapon; further burdening you and ensuring you either become a pure BS fisher or leave yourself open for repeated back-stabs. Of course, you could use elementals, pyro and dark bead... but at that point you might as well not use strength and just make animals' hate mail build.

    *I'm very cynical, but I don't think they would try to do that because it would just mean they're forcing everyone to have the same build. It would ruin the game, or at least take an extremely deep game and make it shallow. Maybe I'm completely wrong and that's why the int requirement is only 16. That way everyone can pretend they have a unique build while having a dark bead shootout.

    BTW -- I was joking about implying I was going to try to BC while pursuers were chasing me.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by CappuccinoJak on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:14 am

    i never used sorcery for fighting until the DLC came out. before the DLC i only used support sorcery like fall control or cast light. sorcery just seemed a bit meh since it was all very easy to dodge. the only thing i had to fear against mages were chameleon + soul spear. dark magic alone has made mages viable now.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Jiub of Carim on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:40 am

    Here is a thread I posted almost exactly a month ago:

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t17077-oolacile-township-home-of-the-dark-bead

    I used to have a lot of trouble with Dark Bead. Trouble as in getting pwned by it. Since then I've learned more about PvP in this awesome game and my attitude towards everything has evolved along with my skills. As people have already stated, there are counters for everything in this game. Nothing is OP. Dark Beads weakest is a forward roll. Learn to master the invincibility frames of your fast roll. Then graduate to I-frames for a mid-roll and a fat roll. I have a STR build were I fat roll through Dark Bead and Pursuers all the time. It takes a while to learn that because you instinctively wanna roll backwards.

    Don't let any tactics cause you to rage. Learn them and adapt. Dark Souls PvP is like a fighting game. Watch your opponents carefully, take notes on their patterns, adapt your build appropriately, and exploit their weaknesses.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by CappuccinoJak on Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:43 am

    Jiub of Carim wrote:Dark Souls PvP is like a fighting game. Watch your opponents carefully, take notes on their patterns, adapt your build appropriately, and exploit their weaknesses.

    couldn't have said it any better myself!

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by JumpsU3vs1 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:51 am

    Heck yeah Dark magics are cheap!! If you got 3 dark mages camping 1 invader, how can they possibly lose?
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:10 am

    JumpsU3vs1 wrote:Heck yeah Dark magics are cheap!! If you got 3 dark mages camping 1 invader, how can they possibly lose?

    I think the imbalance of this situation has less to do with Dark Magic than it does with the fight being 1v3.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:21 am

    DarkW17 wrote:Oh ya before the dlc no problem to do 1800 dmg+ for sure, but since the nerfs I can't believe how much less they do!

    I spend a lot of time vading the forest. Recently I pulled out my DM who does have 50 str 30 fth (lol troll slayer build) and lvl 3 DMB. Was buffing my great club with hornets and got OHKO's on parrys but I was surprised how many survived the BS, but they obviously were high lvl with max vit!
    I did some testing with my friends, who I will not name, so you will never know it was sure-magicians and Chiller.
    I backstabbed sure several times with Rapier +15 with Dex 45 and Str 16.
    Sure was wearing some light armor and had slightly over 1800 HP. Yes, it wasn't a serious test, just something to satisfy my curiosity and training my acupuncture skills.

    Normal = 722
    Hornet = 939
    Normal + DMB = 948
    Normal + SLB = 982
    Hornet + DMB = 1232
    Hornet + SLB = 1277
    Normal + PW = 1079
    Hornet + PW = 1315
    Normal + PW + DMB = 1304
    Normal + PW + SLB = 1375
    Hornet + PW + DMB = 1692
    Hornet + PW + SLB = 1788

    *DMB ws while Blade of Darkmoon +2

    If sure was naked, Hornet + PW + SLB would probably OHKO him. With some decent armor, the damage will be lower. I guess around 1650.

    Some Str weapons do more critical damage than Rapier, so they could one shot.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by JumpsU3vs1 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:23 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    JumpsU3vs1 wrote:Heck yeah Dark magics are cheap!! If you got 3 dark mages camping 1 invader, how can they possibly lose?

    I think the imbalance of this situation has less to do with Dark Magic than it does with the fight being 1v3.

    Yeah but still, it might be possible to win, if all they did was run in and spam R1. But 3 people spamming dark magics while forming a triangle formation around you? Plus they could have pursuers ready to pounce as soon as you spawn. The invader doesn't have even a slight chance of beating that.

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by JumpsU3vs1 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:28 am

    Sentiel wrote:
    DarkW17 wrote:Oh ya before the dlc no problem to do 1800 dmg+ for sure, but since the nerfs I can't believe how much less they do!

    I spend a lot of time vading the forest. Recently I pulled out my DM who does have 50 str 30 fth (lol troll slayer build) and lvl 3 DMB. Was buffing my great club with hornets and got OHKO's on parrys but I was surprised how many survived the BS, but they obviously were high lvl with max vit!
    I did some testing with my friends, who I will not name, so you will never know it was sure-magicians and Chiller.
    I backstabbed sure several times with Rapier +15 with Dex 45 and Str 16.
    Sure was wearing some light armor and had slightly over 1800 HP. Yes, it wasn't a serious test, just something to satisfy my curiosity and training my acupuncture skills.

    Normal = 722
    Hornet = 939
    Normal + DMB = 948
    Normal + SLB = 982
    Hornet + DMB = 1232
    Hornet + SLB = 1277
    Normal + PW = 1079
    Hornet + PW = 1315
    Normal + PW + DMB = 1304
    Normal + PW + SLB = 1375
    Hornet + PW + DMB = 1692
    Hornet + PW + SLB = 1788

    *DMB ws while Blade of Darkmoon +2

    If sure was naked, Hornet + PW + SLB would probably OHKO him. With some decent armor, the damage will be lower. I guess around 1650.

    Some Str weapons do more critical damage than Rapier, so they could one shot.

    Large club, or similar weapon that hits twice with a backstab would multiply the buff damage twice, so you could easily do over 2k.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by hageshisa on Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:03 am

    Only read first page, but seiously, Dark Bead is cheap as 80% of the other viable strategies/tactics in this game. But you shouldn't listen to people whining about it, it's not yor fault that they are noobish enough to get hit.


    And just because some of you are pro enough to dodge every dark magic you see, it doesnt mean that it's not cheap.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:26 am

    I was invading in the burg with my SL 6 and coming across people with Dark Bead and Oolacile catalyst. 10 kills so far (including Dark Bead users) with average SL 13. NOT a OHK, and I have base vitality. Again, when they pull out a Catalyst, my radar goes off. I have time to see them pull out a catalyst and cast Dark Bead and respond to it before I get hit. And, when I got hit, it wasn't a OHK.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by largestember on Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:13 am

    Not really. Magic is supposed to be stronger anyway.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by GrinTwist on Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:29 am

    The best thing I've found you can do if your close to a mage and about to cast is you use the crest or grass crest shield it helps reduce damage by a lot. Your defense is still broken but you should still have enough time to roll away before the second dark bead is used.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:45 am

    GrinTwist wrote:The best thing I've found you can do if your close to a mage and about to cast is you use the crest or grass crest shield it helps reduce damage by a lot. Your defense is still broken but you should still have enough time to roll away before the second dark bead is used.
    I'm afraid that a 45 Dex caster can hit you in time. :|

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by XuitusTheGreat on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:52 pm

    Dark magic makes being a mage a viable choice nothing more, people like
    fast fights that end in a few minutes or less but mages drag out fights
    forcing you to dodge and think, just as the mage has to think about
    their next move fighting a mage requires the same of the opponent and
    some people don't like that. Yet, all dark magic does is create spell zoning in which you can att at long, medium, and short range (just like most dex builds) only op thing in dark souls is gold tracer
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:30 pm

    XuitusTheGreat wrote: only op thing in dark souls is gold tracer

    how is it OP? super short range, and people R1 spam it, tank first hit parry 2nd win.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Rynn on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:09 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:
    XuitusTheGreat wrote: only op thing in dark souls is gold tracer

    how is it OP? super short range, and people R1 spam it, tank first hit parry 2nd win.
    Long Range
    Forces person to have poise
    Intense bleed buildup
    High Damage Per Hit
    It's the best curved sword in the game silly
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:24 pm

    Rynn wrote:
    Long Range
    u wot

    Rynn wrote:Forces person to have poise
    Breaking news: poise is necessary in PvP! We'll have more on this shocking story after the break.

    Rynn wrote:Intense bleed buildup
    Yep. This is GT's main strength.

    Rynn wrote:High Damage Per Hit
    It has lower AR than other curved swords, and curved swords have low AR to begin with.

    Rynn wrote:It's the best curved sword in the game silly
    It has notable weaknesses when compared to other curved swords.

    hageshisa wrote:just because some of you are pro enough to dodge
    every dark magic you see, it doesnt mean that it's not cheap.
    Part of the problem with determining whether or not something is cheap is that cheap is a vacuous word. You can't objectively qualify something as 'cheap' when cheap doesn't have any consistent meaning. Usually it means, "something I lost to," or, "something I don't like."


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:28 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Dark Magic isn't cheap, it's practically free. Sure you may have to kill Manus for Pursuers, but honestly you find each bit of Dark Magic for free!

    They're worse than cheap, they're free!
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:28 pm

    Rynn wrote:
    Long Range
    false
    Forces person to have poise
    how is this different from any other weapon?
    Intense bleed buildup
    true
    High Damage Per Hit
    not as high as falchion
    It's the best curved sword in the game silly
    depends if you want to buff or not

    but like i said earlier, this weapon is meant to R1 spam, thus parry it


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Jiub of Carim on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:42 pm

    XuitusTheGreat wrote:Dark magic makes being a mage a viable choice nothing more, people like
    fast fights that end in a few minutes or less but mages drag out fights
    forcing you to dodge and think, just as the mage has to think about
    their next move fighting a mage requires the same of the opponent and
    some people don't like that. Yet, all dark magic does is create spell zoning in which you can att at long, medium, and short range (just like most dex builds) only op thing in dark souls is gold tracer
    Not OP at all. Personally, i've tried to use it, but i seem to have more success with the Falchion or Scimitar, hell even the GLS. The range is garbage and if you pay attention to your opponent you can parry it with ease.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by gmwdim on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:39 pm

    You know what's even more "cheap" than Dark Magic? Great Magic Barrier. Renders mages completely impotent.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:41 pm

    gmwdim wrote:You know what's even more "cheap" than Dark Magic? Great Magic Barrier. Renders mages completely impotent.

    OH OH!!! VoS. 8)
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Jiub of Carim on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:43 pm

    gmwdim wrote:You know what's even more "cheap" than Dark Magic? Great Magic Barrier. Renders mages completely impotent.
    GMB is cheap?! I've heard it all! Look Skyward


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by hageshisa on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:44 pm

    Saturday-Saint, the news flash is that you actually don't need poise in PvP


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