Is dark magic cheap?

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    Hugh_G_Johnson
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:13 am

    I think it's pretty cheap. You can say they're easy to avoid and it's fine if you're not close, but feeling like you have to keep your distance against a mage is pretty ridiculous. The really cheap part about dark magic in general at least is that they can cast pursuers from a distance -- putting you automatically on the defensive. They duelers who bow then cast pursuers make me sick. I have to roll around dodging pursuers and while they're casting more magic or chasing me with the moonlight greatsword or something. If I can manage to dodge the pursuers (which also does physical damage and can easily break shield stability and stun); I'm almost out of stamina at close range and on the defensive. It's a way to force someone onto the defensive or make them risk getting 1-shot. It's like making someone play chess as black every time, but white gets to make 3 moves. I don't think it gets much cheaper than that.



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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:39 am

    Dark Magic isn't cheap, it's practically free. Sure you may have to kill Manus for Pursuers, but honestly you find each bit of Dark Magic for free!

    They're worse than cheap, they're free!
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:20 am

    I'll give you the stat requirements are low for the damage output it does.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:30 am

    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:The really cheap part about dark magic in general at least is that they can cast pursuers from a distance -- putting you automatically on the defensive.
    Great Magic Barrier
    Strong Magic Shield
    Havel's Greatshield

    Can't?

    Go to a place where you can lead Pursuers to hit an indestructable object (tree etc), or a wall. Use your surroundings.
    Go slightly away from the Pursuers and roll through (works like a charm if there's no big lag).
    Just strafe a side, or go back, Purusers won't catch up with you.
    You can try Silver Pendant.

    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:They duelers who bow then cast pursuers make me sick. I have to roll around dodging pursuers and while they're casting more magic or chasing me with the moonlight greatsword or something. If I can manage to dodge the pursuers (which also does physical damage and can easily break shield stability and stun); I'm almost out of stamina at close range and on the defensive. It's a way to force someone onto the defensive or make them risk getting 1-shot. It's like making someone play chess as black every time, but white gets to make 3 moves. I don't think it gets much cheaper than that.
    Pursuers are NOT a buff, but an offensive spell. Duel, or not, if anyone starts casting Purusers, or Soulmass, attack them. Shoot them with a ranged weapon, running R1 them, anything at all. If you just stand there and let somebody cast Pursuers, you're to blame if it kills you later, not the caster, nor the spell.

    Block Pursuers only with Stone and Havel's Greatshields, or with a shield buffed by Strong Magic Shield.

    Get Crest Shield, it makes short work of MLGS. Don't tell me you can't use it (I've heard that argument before), it requires only 10 Str. Block them, evade Pursuers later, or both at the same time. Also, if the caster is stupid enough to rush at you like this, it would be rude to refuse to backstab them, since they obviously want you to do it so much. You can always pop up Silver Pendant, that will give you a few seconds to make the caster feel sorry for charging at melee build.

    There's always :black-crystal: .

    @reim
    I've been saying that for the longest time. Dark Bead should require more than 16 Int imo.

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:41 am

    I know of a simple way for them to make it so Dark Magic isn't cheap.

    Add an NPC that sells the spells each for a million souls.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:48 am

    Tolvo wrote:I know of a simple way for them to make it so Dark Magic isn't cheap.

    Add an NPC that sells the spells each for a million souls.
    Looks at his builds. Coffee!
    Each has several millions of Souls.
    Shrug

    Giving them a price won't solve the problem people have with them, although no one will be able to say they're cheap anymore. lol!

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by crbngville2 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:54 am

    reim0027 wrote:No. Tell them to suck it up.

    Every dark magic attack is avoidable. the Pursuers takes time to cast and move slowly. The Dark Bead is almost exclusively used when you get too close (like being too aggressive, or rolling through a pursuers or other magic).

    The point is, is is avoidable and predictable. What is cheap about that? IMO, mages were inferior before Dark Magic. Now, they are actually viable.
    To the Op: Nothing in theis game is cheap. For every startegy/weapon/tactic there is a valid counter. Knowing or executing that counter is a different story.
    The only thing cheap in this game is the crummy P2P architecture that From built in to start with. The lag and exploitation of lag are what sets Demon's Souls PVP/COOP above Dark Souls, and is why we will see the return of dedicated servers for DkS2.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:07 am

    Sentiel wrote:
    although no one will be able to say they're cheap anymore. lol!
    Exactly, they'll no longer be cheap! They'll be expensive.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:49 am

    Sentiel wrote:
    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:The really cheap part about dark magic in general at least is that they can cast pursuers from a distance -- putting you automatically on the defensive.
    Great Magic Barrier
    Strong Magic Shield
    Havel's Greatshield

    Can't?

    Go to a place where you can lead Pursuers to hit an indestructable object (tree etc), or a wall. Use your surroundings.
    Go slightly away from the Pursuers and roll through (works like a charm if there's no big lag).
    Just strafe a side, or go back, Purusers won't catch up with you.
    You can try Silver Pendant.

    ...

    Get Crest Shield, it makes short work of MLGS. Don't tell me you can't use it (I've heard that argument before), it requires only 10 Str. Block them, evade Pursuers later, or both at the same time. Also, if the caster is stupid enough to rush at you like this, it would be rude to refuse to backstab them, since they obviously want you to do it so much. You can always pop up Silver Pendant, that will give you a few seconds to make the caster feel sorry for charging at melee build.

    There's always :black-crystal: .

    @reim
    I've been saying that for the longest time. Dark Bead should require more than 16 Int imo.

    Magic barrier requires that you have plenty of time to cast it and identify your opponent as a mage (or cast it anyway and not be able to use a blossom). Even then it doesn't last very long. Havel's great shield is a build killer and great magic shield means you need to have your catalyst in your main hand assuming you are a mage. Dodging pursuers in the forest is easy enough, but in a duel in the burg when you go from bowing to dodging there's no time to hit him with an arrow (and what would that do anyway?). Getting hit with the first cast is not a problem. Like I said; the problem is you're on the defensive from the start and have to battle just to get back on even footing tactically.

    I don't have the DLC, but I've heard from more than one person that using it is like back-stabbing yourself.
    I do have the crest shield on most of my builds, but I'm not worried about the moonlight greatsword -- I actually like to see people using that. I was just making the point that they are able to keep you on defensive. I have no problem using the :black-crystal: against people I know are going to pull some kinda crap or if I don't like what I see. I haven't thought of using it while I'm being chased by pursuers, though.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by DarkW17 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:04 pm

    Lol still curious what weapon can do over 1800 dmg on a BS with a hornets ring? And don't say well use power within because that's not inifinte that gets ya killed quick also! I'm just talking a weapon buffed or not?


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:07 pm

    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:Magic barrier requires that you have plenty of time to cast it and identify your opponent as a mage (or cast it anyway and not be able to use a blossom). Even then it doesn't last very long. Havel's great shield is a build killer and great magic shield means you need to have your catalyst in your main hand assuming you are a mage. Dodging pursuers in the forest is easy enough, but in a duel in the burg when you go from bowing to dodging there's no time to hit him with an arrow (and what would that do anyway?). Getting hit with the first cast is not a problem. Like I said; the problem is you're on the defensive from the start and have to battle just to get back on even footing tactically.
    GMB has about the same casting time as Pursuers.

    Identifying your opponent as a caster is easy. Wings on head.
    The best way is to aproach everybody as a caster. With 16 Int requirement, anyone can cast Dark Bead. Not to mention Pyromancies.

    Havel's is an option for Str builds.

    Rearrange your inventory and switch to a Catalyst to cast Strong Magic Shield just as you see Pursuers being casted. Alternatively, you can cast Hidden Body and Pursuers won't activate on you. Although this gives you a 30 second time limit to kill the caster, or you're screwed.

    Bow with Proper Bow and do it as the invader is on stairs, or when he has some distance to you, that way your animation will end before they can do anything.

    When in Burg, back up against a wall, wait for Pursuers to be very close and roll away. Purusers will hit the wall and destroy thmeselves.
    Alternatively, you can go to the small room leading to the balcony with Wooden Shield and interact with the door. You're invulnerable while opening/closing doors.

    Headshot with an arrow stops the casting if done in time and it will stagger any opponent regardless of their Poise. Even if not headshot, it will still do around 200 damage. While it's not enough and can't even be compared to the damage Pursuers may cause to you, if the caster has low Poise it will stagger him/her, thus interrupting the casting and it the worst case scenario, you will at least do some damage to them, so their cast isn't completely free.

    There's no problem to be on the defence as long as you're not one of those overly aggresive players. You should learn to adapt your playstyle and perhaps your gear to your current situation.

    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:I don't have the DLC, but I've heard from more than one person that using it is like back-stabbing yourself.
    I do have the crest shield on most of my builds, but I'm not worried about the moonlight greatsword -- I actually like to see people using that. I was just making the point that they are able to keep you on defensive. I have no problem using the :black-crystal: against people I know are going to pull some kinda crap or if I don't like what I see. I haven't thought of using it while I'm being chased by pursuers, though.
    Not having the DLC might be the biggest issue, because imo the best way to learn a techniques weakness is to use it yourself.

    If you're on defensive and your opponent rushes you with melee, disregard their spells and backstab them. They mostly won't expect it, it will provide you with invulnerability, which will take care of Pursuers and it will do serious damage to your opponents HP, turning the tides and making them go to the defensive.

    The best overall strategy is to wait for the caster to run out of casts. DB has 6 and Pursuers has 3 casts per Spell. The usual caster uses 12 DB, 3 Pursuers and if he's clever, he's got HCM, or CSS as backup, with are easy to evade and since they're with us from the beggining I won't cover those at all.

    Using :black-crystal: is a good idea. Better to frustrate oneself with something he/she hates to deal with, but I'm afraid it's too slow to escape Pursuers this way. Perhaps if you use it as the spell is being casted, or from a distance.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Nybbles on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:09 pm

    it's not that dark magic is unfair (it should require more than 16 Int to OKHO an 1800 HP build though) it's that i'm sick of fighting mages that do nothing but spam cast only to die because of a momentary spike in lag. that's just not cricket.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:13 pm

    DarkW17 wrote:Lol still curious what weapon can do over 1800 dmg on a BS with a hornets ring? And don't say well use power within because that's not inifinte that gets ya killed quick also! I'm just talking a weapon buffed or not?
    For DB to do over 1800, it requires Bellowing Ring, Crow of Dusk and TCC (or you have to do a fatal mistake and allow DB to get counter damage on you).

    That's equal to using Hornet Ring, Buff and Crystal upgrade. I'm sure some Str weapons, like DGA can do it. Heck, even Rapier could do it.

    The point was, while weaker without proper setup, I can bs them to oblivion, while DB has limited casts.

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Rynn on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:14 pm

    Sentiel wrote:
    Identifying your opponent as a caster is easy. Wings on head.
    BAHAHAHA!
    Yeah, that's almost always true, but Dark Bead doesn't need wings to one-shot.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:17 pm

    Rynn wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:
    Identifying your opponent as a caster is easy. Wings on head.
    BAHAHAHA!
    Yeah, that's almost always true, but Dark Bead doesn't need wings to one-shot.
    It needs to do counter damage on you, or hit you as you exit roll.
    The latter is quite a problem thanks to lag. :x

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by DarkW17 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:29 pm

    Sentiel wrote:
    DarkW17 wrote:Lol still curious what weapon can do over 1800 dmg on a BS with a hornets ring? And don't say well use power within because that's not inifinte that gets ya killed quick also! I'm just talking a weapon buffed or not?
    For DB to do over 1800, it requires Bellowing Ring, Crow of Dusk and TCC (or you have to do a fatal mistake and allow DB to get counter damage on you).

    That's equal to using Hornet Ring, Buff and Crystal upgrade. I'm sure some Str weapons, like DGA can do it. Heck, even Rapier could do it.

    The point was, while weaker without proper setup, I can bs them to oblivion, while DB has limited casts.

    I get what your saying and I agree with your point, but in all fairness I took a buffed DGA with hornets and it didn't kill me. There is no way a buffed rapier can do that much dmg even before the DLC a buffed rapier wouldnt do that much. Ya gotta remember buffs don't transfer into a critical like most think they would. Also in the most common 120 sl most people don't have 50 str then enough for a 30 or so for a buff!

    The most I have even done on my sl 370 with 50 str 50 int and buffing CMW on a great club with TCC was 2150 dmg but with the nerfs its waaaaay less now I'm sure, I'm not trying to be annoying just curious ill have to test!


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:34 pm

    I'm getting curious myself. I know I've got OHKO bsed on my 1800 HP build a lot in the past, but perhaps the nerf to Hornet changed that.

    I think I'll ask one of my friends if they have a 1800+ HP build and let me bs them. At least I'll know how much regular Rapier bs does, so I can plan my latest build accordingly...


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by DarkW17 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:51 pm

    Oh ya before the dlc no problem to do 1800 dmg+ for sure, but since the nerfs I can't believe how much less they do!

    I spend a lot of time vading the forest. Recently I pulled out my DM who does have 50 str 30 fth (lol troll slayer build) and lvl 3 DMB. Was buffing my great club with hornets and got OHKO's on parrys but I was surprised how many survived the BS, but they obviously were high lvl with max vit!


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by grossemesser on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:26 pm

    I wasn't to happy with it at first but then I figured it out. With a little caution and preparation it is really no problem. You can outrun the pursuers and I have rolled through dark bead with much success.

    Or I see it and say to my self " Oh look, they've been through the dlc. I've been through the dlc, oh what you don't like my silver pendant?"
    As long as you are on your toes and not to busy spamming r1 or wotg you can avoid it. I just get kinda pissed when some guy one shots me with dark bead while wearing the crown of dusk and using a crystal catalyst. Occasionally I get some revenge in the form of a bs powered by pw and rtsr to back up my +5 fury sword........ twisted
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by MrMcClean on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:48 pm

    Jester's Tears wrote:Against newbies, Yes. Unless you know the Roll-Times. It will *** you over.
    For PROS LIKE MEEEE, Not really. I don't like it much and it get's annyoing when the Caster has Dark Bead x10. Pursuers are annyoing since lag can make them Ignore walls. I Mostly play un-fair against Magic-Users in general. GTFO of my world. NAO.,
    (I do play fair against some people. But the general mage Community is Spam after spam with Magic so i just kill them qucik)

    I think you have to differ it from "illegal" invasions and summoned invasions which should be an honest duel.
    Sure, you can always die to spammers, but that's not my fault and if its a duel i want a fair game.

    For me its annoying that some people are just killing themselves or run
    away when they see me even if i did not use any spell. How can they
    learn to avoid it if they never try to dodge or how to fight it anyway?

    Todaywhen i was tying it with a parrying dagger, the channelers trident and
    HCM someone told me dark magic is unfair but i didn't use it to kill him.


    [quote="crbngville2"]
    reim0027 wrote:
    To the Op: Nothing in theis
    game is cheap. For every startegy/weapon/tactic there is a valid ............ The lag and exploitation of lag are what sets
    Demon's Souls PVP/COOP above Dark Souls, and is why we will see the
    return of dedicated servers for DkS2.

    Thats what I thought too.
    But if theres a lag i mostly get backstabbed.^^
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Emergence on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:27 pm

    Against seasoned players, I'm rarely using DM as a primary damage dealer. Pursuers is a set up spell that I rarely ever expect to land directly, and DB is a punisher and at times a psychological tool to maintain zoning. They are just complimentary components of more elaborate spell chains, and not something I could or should lean on exclusively.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by CappuccinoJak on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:35 pm

    Sentiel wrote:imo the best way to learn a techniques weakness is to use it yourself.

    so true. i had a tough time dealing with dark magic (besides spamming silver pendant lol) so i decided to make a dedicated caster only build. after using dark magic a lot, i've noticed how other people avoid it and its weaknesses.

    forest + pursuers = sad caster.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by barrywilkins on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:58 pm

    I don't think Dark Magic in of itself is cheap. its designed as a way for mages to punish overaggressive players who only try to roll to the side to dodge. The cheap part is really an issue with every high powered thing in the game: lag. It boggles the mind as to the crazy stuff that happens with dark bead/persuers. I've seen full havel tanks drop like flies to attacks that didn't even happen until after he was already dead.

    What happened was I was hosting in the burg, summoned a couple dw and let them have at it, one was a high hp full havels guy with a gravelord sword, the other was a bunny eared lawyer. Havel seemed to have the edge, until he dropped dead for no reason. After he faded away, the lawyer casted persuers in super fast motion and they flew at the spot where Havel died. One guess as to how my duel with the lawyer went.

    Another thing is at some times, theres literally nothing you can do to stop it. I've roll bsed people, only to have it canceled out for no damage as i take the full brunt of a counter damage dark bead.

    These lag deaths are extremely frustrating but, it can happen with anything in the game really. The only reason dark magic gets the bad rap it has is because of two reasons: A) They have the highest damage potential in the game, thus making a split second of lag instantly kill you. and B) Its the new giantdad of the game. You'll invade this person knowing exactly what they're going to do, you've built around their spells, you've trained to counter them by heart. Doesn't make killing them or dieing to them any more fun.

    When the game is balanced around the fact that you must sacrifice points to counter what should be one thing, or you have no shot, it means that you just end up fighting the same build over and over again. Dark Bead/Persuers fits the classic definiton of overpowered, as much as I hate to say it. However, if it were to get nerfed, I'd much rather see the casts per attunement go down, and the scaling only come into play at later magic levels, not some hamfisted taking the nerf hammer to the face.

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:32 pm

    Imo, this is the reason black magic/black pyro get such a bad rap: Hate Mail Build

    When you combine this with:

    -Not bowing and being a jumper.

    -Using terrain and NPCs as cover.

    -Spamming attacks.

    -Pretty much...playing the game within its limitations.

    You will find that this build has too much power for this soul level. Even when invading the depths with this build against seasoned players with over powered gear for their level, it is still a nightmare.

    Not only is the casting damage over powered, but it also takes advantage of the Hornets Ring and doesn't suffer from slowing casting attack spells or pyros. At soul level 10, a build should not have exceptional casting damage, exceptional poise damage, and exceptional backstab damage...its just too much.

    Is it squishy? Sort of. Is it responsible for rage quits? Most definitely.

    We all hate these playstyles...but some of the most efficient griefers use a variant of this build, and the impression its left has funneled through to every soul level and dueling ground in the game.

    I think people hate backstabs and black sorceries/pyros for the memories, as they become less over powered at higher soul levels just like everything else.

    ***edit***

    I will say casting has an advantage stat wise over other types of builds even at higher soul levels. The equippable items in game only enable the problem.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:58 pm

    I feel like a lot of threads asking about the power of magic are being made.


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