Is dark magic cheap?

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    MrMcClean

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    Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by MrMcClean on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:39 am

    Hi, guys.
    I want to ask what you are thinking about dark magic.
    I'm
    playing a mage build for pvp and it works pretty well. I'm using
    homing crystal soulmass, crystal soul spear, dark bead, the Tin
    Crystallization Catalyst, different enchanted weapons and the crest
    shield.
    Since i bought dlc and got the dark magic a few people are
    complaining that the dark magic was cheap and affronting me in the chat.
    Especially pursues and dark bead. I'm not talking about spamming dark
    dead and ganking like standing behind the invader while he summons and
    then cast pursues or sth else.
    My tactic in short is to wait for a
    time to parry and attack with magic because it does more damage with my
    build. Or evade and hit at the right time or confusing the enemy with
    the soulmass. I think that you can easily dodge any sorcery or use the
    silver pendant and dark bead is only effective on short range and you
    still can roll through and try backstabbing.

    So i want to know some arguements why it is cheap or not.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:43 am

    People will say it is. I say no, it's in your build use it.

    Use it in a measured way if you doubt yourself but I wouldn't. Why should you gimp your build?

    Who's complaining a Claymore+DMB+3 abusing housewife?

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:45 am

    No. Tell them to suck it up.

    Every dark magic attack is avoidable. the Pursuers takes time to cast and move slowly. The Dark Bead is almost exclusively used when you get too close (like being too aggressive, or rolling through a pursuers or other magic).

    The point is, is is avoidable and predictable. What is cheap about that? IMO, mages were inferior before Dark Magic. Now, they are actually viable.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by GrinTwist on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:47 am

    Personally I don't care for it anymore.

    It's a bit aggravating when I get killed in one shot by an invading SoV after their darkmoon buff wore out but it's just come to be expected that if they have a mage class they probably have dark bead.

    As far as pursuers goes it's not that hard to dodge unless if the lag is bad, than your more likely to die.

    Again it was aggravating at first but once you learn how to dodge and not charge straight up on a mage the less likely you are to die by their dark magic.

    Here's to the hope that this thread won't get locked! :Beer:


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:51 am

    It is very cheap.However,you aren't being cheap by using it on cheap people.Basically,wrath spammers,gankers and tracer/rapier fishers are fair game or others depending on what they are doing.Don't worry about the hatemail,cheap people whine when they are beaten.To summarise,try not to use it on nicer players
    And the only argument I have as to why it is cheap is because dark bead is a OHKO a lot of the time.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:52 am

    KrazykevS10 wrote:It is very cheap.However,you aren't being cheap by using it on cheap people.Basically,wrath spammers,gankers and tracer/rapier fishers are fair game or others depending on what they are doing.Don't worry about the hatemail,cheap people whine when they are beaten.To summarise,try not to use it on nicer players
    And the only argument I have as to why it is cheap is because dark bead is a OHKO a lot of the time.

    This post probably wins the thread.

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:54 am

    KrazykevS10 wrote:I have as to why it is cheap is because dark bead is a OHKO a lot of the time.

    Only if you're close. If they have Dark Bead, you can't play very aggressive, and you can't roll toward them. If you get hit by it, it is usually your own fault. Bait them into using it and missing. Plus, have some projectile backup (good for mages and spears).


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:59 am

    reim0027 wrote:

    Only if you're close. If they have Dark Bead, you can't play very aggressive, and you can't roll toward them. If you get hit by it, it is usually your own fault. Bait them into using it and missing. Plus, have some projectile backup (good for mages and spears).

    I'd agree about being being your own fault if they miss once but usually people don't need two shots,hence you won't know if they have dark bead until you are dead.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Ashran on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:00 am

    Dark magic isnt cheap. The bad thing is that it can be used in a cheap way VERY EASELY. Thats the main point. You can get one shotted with dark bead if you survive two rounds of pursuers while the caster turtles in full havels.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by GrinTwist on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:02 am

    I think the problem I have with dark bead is that you don't know if they have it or not. Now if your a mage I'm not going to blame you for using it, but it's a little bit harder to know when dark bead is coming when just a second before they used to have a demon greataxe.

    I'm not trying to condemn anyone's playing style because that's not what I want to do, but sometimes when I'm in PVP it's seems like people use dark bead as a last resort when they realize they aren't as good as melee as they thought. Then it comes down to a bit of luck when it comes to surviving their first dark bead hit.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:04 am

    I agree with that Grin. A 16 INT requirement for Dark Bead is far too low. It's viable for Faith builds using the DM cat and even viable for desperate people via the Oolacile Ivory cat.

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by mugenis4real on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:05 am

    As a user of Dark Magic myself, I have to say yes, it is cheap. I shouldn't be able to one shot with only 16 Int Coffee!
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:15 am

    Yeah, the OHK is annoying for sure, but that is usually if you get too close and take all the beads to the head. But, you shouldn't rush your opponent. Play a little cat and mouse, figure out their pattern, weapons, etc. If they pull out a catalyst, figure they have Dark Bead. Just like if they pull out a talisman, assume they have WoG.

    I don't like being surprised with a OHK from dark bead. But I can't remember a time where it wasn't my fault for being stupid (rolling too close to someone who just cast pursuers for example), too aggressive (just charging in like a moose in rut), or too slow on the reflexes (they just pulled out a catalyst, old brain can't keep up). (Not counting lag of course).

    But, "cheap" is very subjective. It is a matter of perspective. The more we lose to it, the cheaper it becomes. The more we learn about it, the less cheap it becomes.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:28 am

    To put my opinion in context,I've never really fought a dark bead user who didn't have a phantom and spammed it.I do assume every mage has it like how every faith build has wrath but it still shouldn't be so powerful for 16 INT.I've only been one hit killed by dark bead three times in total but that is still three too many.I'm sure others have died from it many more times than I and it can be really unfair for new players and people who don't have the DLC.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by wolfboy on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:29 am

    I try to be tasteful about how and when I use dark magic- but I don't think it's cheap... a hornet ring backstab is a OHKO too... Dark magic is just as powerful and frustrating as any other weapon or mob or environment or boss in the game... every weapon and magic can be "cheap"... And that's part of what I love about Dark Souls- I've played this game enough to know that everything can and will kill you.... And almost 100% of the time if I die, I know it's my fault. But I get to respawn at the bonfire and try to do it better next time...

    As much as it sucks to be OHKO'd it's not really a big deal- you respawn and try again... and over time you don't get killed that way anymore...
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by mugenis4real on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:37 am

    reim0027 wrote:Yeah, the OHK is annoying for sure, but that is usually if you get too close and take all the beads to the head. But, you shouldn't rush your opponent. Play a little cat and mouse, figure out their pattern, weapons, etc. If they pull out a catalyst, figure they have Dark Bead. Just like if they pull out a talisman, assume they have WoG.

    I don't like being surprised with a OHK from dark bead. But I can't remember a time where it wasn't my fault for being stupid (rolling too close to someone who just cast pursuers for example), too aggressive (just charging in like a moose in rut), or too slow on the reflexes (they just pulled out a catalyst, old brain can't keep up). (Not counting lag of course).

    But, "cheap" is very subjective. It is a matter of perspective. The more we lose to it, the cheaper it becomes. The more we learn about it, the less cheap it becomes.

    The Pursuer + Dark Bead combo is brutal to say the least, even if you've figured out how to dodge each spell separately. If the Mage is halfway decent with timing, your going to get hit by one or the other guaranteed. Look Skyward


    Last edited by mugenis4real on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:38 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : SPELLING)

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:57 am

    Yes it's cheap as hell, from a monetary standpoint. Thats it though.

    I spam Dark Bead like arrows. I have 18 with me sometimes in the forest...I'm almost always in the forest... twisted

    The Burg is different. You're closer to your opponent. Which works out to either favor you or be your demise.

    Dark Bead is easy to read, and if you're fighting someone that doesn't have any problems with timing it doesnt matter how many to have, how much space is between you, or how much damage you do.

    I-frames are i-frames regardless. You will suffer from roll stabs and leo ring crits like any other casting.

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Glutebrah on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:40 am

    My only issue with dark bead is it is arguably the strongest spell for pvp and it has the lowest requirement.

    If it had a int requirement of 30+ the spell would be limited to pure mages.


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by MrMcClean on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:10 am

    Thank you all for the comments so far. It's a good overview.
    KrazykevS10 wrote:To put my opinion in context,I've never really fought a dark bead user who didn't have a phantom and spammed it.I do assume every mage has it like how every faith build has wrath but it still shouldn't be so powerful for 16 INT.I've only been one hit killed by dark bead three times in total but that is still three too many.I'm sure others have died from it many more times than I and it can be really unfair for new players and people who don't have the DLC.

    Yeah, I agree with that.
    But if you are a mage you spent most of your points in att and int and its kind of strange you can use it with only 16 int.
    Str based pvp player can also OHK me or faster dex players just keep hitting me until my block breaks. I can kill many players with one hit but i have not more damage with dark bead than with crystal soul spear i think, so i thought its so strong because of my int.
    I read that it scales a bit with str. And the Manus Catalyst also scales with str. So almost everbody can use these spells very efficiently. That's strange.
    I also assume that many players are suprised to fight a mage. Can't explain why so many people are just running into the soulmass. And I don't see many mages in pvp so thats why i was asking.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by CappuccinoJak on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:45 am

    have you ever ran into someone using magic barrier or great MB? even a full pursuers does only a little bit of damage. i've been using dark magic with my all-caster build and i gotta say it's OP in pve, but no one really cares about there though lol.

    i do agree with the low INT requirement on dark bead though,but that's about it. pursuers acts as a test of sorts for me when i'm hunting gankers in the forest. a surprising amount have been able to avoid it, though the trees get in the way quite a bit. sure i usually OHKO people, but with my mage any damage i take is a OHKO as well (hooray for glass cannons!)
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Rynn on Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:00 am

    Dark Bead is imbalanced, but Dark Magic isn't an instant victory by any means.
    What I've found is it's best as a punishment spell... Are you running off to go use a flask? I don't need to backstab you. One cast of Darkbead and it's over.
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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by VaDoom on Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:51 am

    Dark magic is not OP, it's just strong like a lot of things in the game.
    Without it, mages are weak.
    Yes, I sometimes get killed by a big DB in the face, but that's really rare now, and 95% of the time, it's clearly my fault. Using it doesn't garanty a victory, the only thing that was really OP is DWGR before the nerf, the games seems balanced balanced enough right now imo


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by DarkW17 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:33 am

    The 16 Int IMO is just an absolute joke really 16 INt? Why not just make it 9 so anyone can use it nice work FROM :evil:

    Other than that I don't think dark magic is cheap at all I find both very easy to dodge seperately, however I find presuers easiest to cancel when you roll into it and a good mage then casts dark beads, toss a little lag in with the double shot its usually a OHKO!

    Someone was saying a hornets BS can still be a OHKO, maybe its cause I only run builds with 1800hp these days, but since the patch I have yet to be OHKO'd by anything buy dark magic :suspect:


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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:07 am

    Dark Bead can OHKO, but it can do so only at close range and still needs some boosting to achieve this. Crown of Dusk, TCC and Bellowing Ring come to mind. If you equip Hornet Ring, you can OHKO backstab. Both is frowned upon, but one of these has limited uses, while the other can be used infinitely.

    People frown on both of these, but they require one and the same thing. Stupidity and carelesness. Unless you have those two, they pose little danger to you.

    DB is a close range spell, probably created to allow casters to defend themselves against overly aggresive melee fighters and to enable them to do damage on par with their Hornet backstabs. It serves it's purpose well.
    But you can evade it, block it, reduce it's damage and block caster magic completely. It's not your ticket for win, it's just what it is a strong close quarters spell. If it kills you and lag wasn't playing a factor, then you did something wrong.

    Pursuers are similar, however the intent when creating them is a mystery to me. The spell has one of the longest casting animations in the game, so you can interrupt it. Even if you don't, it still has the same weaknessess as Dark Bead, plus some more. It's slow. So much slow, that you can simply walk away from it and it won't catch up. Even better, you can use it to attack their own caster. Upon hitting an object, each Puruser does a small AoE explosion, which can also damage it's caster. A clever usage of surroundings and evasion can lead into some embarassing deaths for Pursuers spammers.

    In the end, those spells aren't cheap, they do their job well, they make casters a valid PvP option. If someone blames the spells for their loss, they should look at themselves first, because those spells require a big deal of cooperation on their target's side to kill.

    tl;dr
    Dark Magic isn't cheap, people are just hating on it.

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    Re: Is dark magic cheap?

    Post by Jester's Tears on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:35 am

    Against newbies, Yes. Unless you know the Roll-Times. It will *** you over.
    For PROS LIKE MEEEE, Not really. I don't like it much and it get's annyoing when the Caster has Dark Bead x10. Pursuers are annyoing since lag can make them Ignore walls. I Mostly play un-fair against Magic-Users in general. GTFO of my world. NAO.,
    (I do play fair against some people. But the general mage Community is Spam after spam with Magic so i just kill them qucik)


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