Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

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    Zakkia
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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Zakkia on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:50 am

    Because there is a difference between PvE and PvP. From is amazed by the community it has and therefore is proud to put it that way. Sure they realize lets make this game almost with no ceiling at all. Also point that out while im on the topic- 710 maybe the max, but the damage rates are less increasing than Demons. Therefore you most likely will not get to that lvl unless you simply grind souls. Eventually bosses become too much and nearly impossible to kill with non upgrading majority of weapons.

    Anyways back on topic.

    PvP lvl was taken from Demons to dark souls. It was all agreed upon due to the fact people would 1hit anything and everything at such a high lvl due to the scaling. The vitality wouldnt keep up with the weapons per say. No one is a fanatic bro. They just agree with the set. I have tried both and i like 120-130 usually beecause BKGA are dying quickly due to their hatred. But i can wear what i want also and have decent fighting defense. At a high level people wear the heaviest of armors and poise. I can hardly look the way i want without getting thrown around like a racketball.

    ^Like i said. i enjoy relying on a certain advantage for certain enemies. for ex: the card game analogy i made. I like weaknesses plus strength
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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Eliteknight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:52 am

    Scudman_Slayer wrote:
    Eliteknight wrote:I find the thought of having a character that can use every weapon in the game at max effectiveness, use every spell and have stupid high HP to be against the spirit of the game honestly.

    At 120 a character needs to make choices about stats, needs to decide what weapons and armor they want. Are they a magic user or a devout miracle caster? Going for a knightly character with straight swords, a far east katana user, or some exotic weapon forged from the soul of some demon you killed? Your avatar has something important when you have to choose, identity as a character.

    Going to high and you pretty much all become the same. What fun is having everything? You can gain the world but lose your soul as they say.


    As i said You 120 fanatics never change :/
    not meaning to be rude
    but if 120 is the cap for most of you why did the developers placed a 710 max level cap in the game?


    Oh name calling, I bet your the one who downvoted my post. Classy

    I can't read the developers minds, but I do know that promoting an environment rich for role play is a very important aspect of the game to them. Was mentioned in a few interviews. I know I'm not the only player that enjoys that part of the game.

    Like I said, if you can have every stat at max what identity as a character do you have compared to the next guy? None. So no thanks.


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Zakkia on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:53 am

    Lets keep the insults to a minimum guys. I like the discussion, not the arguments.
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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:57 am

    Zakkia wrote:Because there is a difference between PvE and PvP. From is amazed by the community it has and therefore is proud to put it that way. Sure they realize lets make this game almost with no ceiling at all. Also point that out while im on the topic- 710 maybe the max, but the damage rates are less increasing than Demons. Therefore you most likely will not get to that lvl unless you simply grind souls. Eventually bosses become too much and nearly impossible to kill with non upgrading majority of weapons.

    Anyways back on topic.

    PvP lvl was taken from Demons to dark souls. It was all agreed upon due to the fact people would 1hit anything and everything at such a high lvl due to the scaling. The vitality wouldnt keep up with the weapons per say. No one is a fanatic bro. They just agree with the set. I have tried both and i like 120-130 usually beecause BKGA are dying quickly due to their hatred. But i can wear what i want also and have decent fighting defense. At a high level people wear the heaviest of armors and poise. I can hardly look the way i want without getting thrown around like a racketball.

    ^Like i said. i enjoy relying on a certain advantage for certain enemies. for ex: the card game analogy i made. I like weaknesses plus strength


    well for me high level is fair game

    where as a high level you can wear anything you damn well want your statement "hgih level people wear the heaviest of armors and poise"

    a little bit arrogant because for me at least you're implying that every high level person uses heavy armor and poise thats is wrong

    i can kill anyone naked if i wanted due to my skill they could also kill me without any armor at all should their skill surpass mine
    its not all meele on high level liek everyone says people use magic spells,miracles,pyromancies normally

    there's just a bit more variety than being limited to only this stuff i have when i make a 120 build


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by ChizFreak on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:58 am

    Zakkia wrote:^I agree with you on that a little bit. But i see maybe 35-40% of the time BKGA and etc. Plus i rarely die to the mages due to knowing how they work with a mage build i spent hours and hours pvping with. Also the GS of artorias is made for overall builds. I saw like 20 of them when i hit those lvls. I love the sword so cool looking. But no longer unique :/ vitality and defense arnt that big for me. For my faith build i WoG in cliff situations or gangbangers. But anyway else i use my +5 Silver knight sword and sunlight blade it then switch to my occult +5 dark sword. Its useful and i dont see it often. You have had some bad experiences i understand that. But then again i would think 150-170 maybe a good switch to get rid of BKGA (i hate it so much but oh well haha) but in the 200's too many artorias. What do you think?

    Silver Knight's sword it's worth it? I'm doing a stret/faith build and I was planning on using a Man serpent sword and buff it with sunlight. Or maybe a Barbed Straight sword +15 for the bleed effect.


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Zakkia on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:02 am

    @Chiz. i like the 1h speed. I do high damage with it and no need for the stam loss from big swords. So therefore i stick with the 1h powerhouse

    @Scudman. Like i said ive been there and skill matters but there isn o difference in that than 120. From my experience that is what i have come to. The game changes at its own pace. with different things and different types of people. I dont mind dying. I dont mind g etting killed by a BKGA. i say "hey i shouldve played better." Therefore i just end up with that i try my best and at the end of the day thats all that matters.
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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:02 am

    Eliteknight wrote:
    Scudman_Slayer wrote:
    Eliteknight wrote:I find the thought of having a character that can use every weapon in the game at max effectiveness, use every spell and have stupid high HP to be against the spirit of the game honestly.

    At 120 a character needs to make choices about stats, needs to decide what weapons and armor they want. Are they a magic user or a devout miracle caster? Going for a knightly character with straight swords, a far east katana user, or some exotic weapon forged from the soul of some demon you killed? Your avatar has something important when you have to choose, identity as a character.

    Going to high and you pretty much all become the same. What fun is having everything? You can gain the world but lose your soul as they say.


    As i said You 120 fanatics never change :/
    not meaning to be rude
    but if 120 is the cap for most of you why did the developers placed a 710 max level cap in the game?


    Oh name calling, I bet your the one who downvoted my post. Classy

    I can't read the developers minds, but I do know that promoting an environment rich for role play is a very important aspect of the game to them. Was mentioned in a few interviews. I know I'm not the only player that enjoys that part of the game.

    Like I said, if you can have every stat at max what identity as a character do you have compared to the next guy? None. So no thanks.


    simply for the fact that he may be using pyromancies and i may be using miracles for one



    "Like I said, if you can have every stat at max what identity as a character do you have compared to the next guy? None. So no thanks"

    sir that a little vague because you're saying that every high level has the same equip,weapon,magic,etc

    we high level users are not "god" we can lose to a lvl 50 if the guy has more skill than us buddy


    and i didn't downvote your post in fact i don't vote up neither down to anyone



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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:05 am

    Zakkia wrote:@Chiz. i like the 1h speed. I do high damage with it and no need for the stam loss from big swords. So therefore i stick with the 1h powerhouse

    @Scudman. Like i said ive been there and skill matters but there isn o difference in that than 120. From my experience that is what i have come to. The game changes at its own pace. with different things and different types of people. I dont mind dying. I dont mind g etting killed by a BKGA. i say "hey i shouldve played better." Therefore i just end up with that i try my best and at the end of the day thats all that matters.


    ^^

    i agree the game relies on skill mostly and i don't mind you being prefering 120 really such as long as you don't be a prick and say "if you go past 120 its not a build anymore blah blah blah" like most people that cap themselves do

    at least you have tried high level unlike most capped people

    im not picking fights with anyone so peace man


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by ChizFreak on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:09 am

    Zakkia wrote:@Chiz. i like the 1h speed. I do high damage with it and no need for the stam loss from big swords. So therefore i stick with the 1h powerhouse

    @Scudman. Like i said ive been there and skill matters but there isn o difference in that than 120. From my experience that is what i have come to. The game changes at its own pace. with different things and different types of people. I dont mind dying. I dont mind g etting killed by a BKGA. i say "hey i shouldve played better." Therefore i just end up with that i try my best and at the end of the day thats all that matters.

    Of: Thanks

    On:I agree with the 120 lvl cap, it's about the game ends there, it's about a limit, it's about choices. I like to make decisions that make effect in the future. If I'm max level I could do whatever I want with everything. I prefer to keep the cap at 120, because at that lvl you can't use everything, you have to make choices, choose what you like, and works well against other people, you have to be a warrior, not a god.

    It's that in high levels, every one has everything so in theory the smarter one wins because everyone has the same tools. But that's what I don't like. I like to choose a path and follow it. Then find people who are different than me and fight them, learn from them. It's fun to fight magic users without any kind of magic defense. It's fun to find people who use things that you can't counter. That's when innovation comes. You have to overcome your opponent using every tool you have available, but without having them all.

    Overall I will also try a EXTREME high level build. I been wanting to do a lot of NG plus for a while....


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:14 am

    @chiz

    dude no offense but lvl 200 can still be a build just a more complete one i'd say

    you can still follow that path and max out your int to 50 or so then focus on your VIT

    there is variety you never know what your opponent is hiding below their sleeve you don't know what they can do you don't know what tricks they can be able to pull out and turn the tide of battle into their favor
    that doesn't change,it will never change

    im not being rude to you as i said im not looking to make enemies

    its just that i find it annoying people saying that 120 is the end of the game (not saying you're annoying because you didn't bash high levels)


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Eliteknight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:17 am

    Scudman_Slayer wrote:
    well for me high level is fair game

    where as a high level you can wear anything you damn well want your statement "hgih level people wear the heaviest of armors and poise"

    a little bit arrogant because for me at least you're implying that every high level person uses heavy armor and poise thats is wrong

    i can kill anyone naked if i wanted due to my skill they could also kill me without any armor at all should their skill surpass mine
    its not all meele on high level liek everyone says people use magic spells,miracles,pyromancies normally

    there's just a bit more variety than being limited to only this stuff i have when i make a 120 build

    There really isn't any variety at max level for serious pvp. There really isn't. Because the only intelligent gearset is havel's armor plus whatever weapon does the most damage on parry/backstab.

    Having max equip burden doesn't give you any armor choices, it just means the armor with the most poise/defence is automatically the best choice.

    The amount of skill to get success in pvp doesn't change, you will still lose to someone better than you at max level. The difference is that at 120, you have to play and build your character well. You have to give stuff up, accept limitations and make up for them in your playstyle.

    You go up to high, you lose the RP identity of your character and you lose the fun of having to use your head to come up with a build you like. What your left with is only like a third of the game.

    simply for the fact that he may be using pyromancies and i may be using miracles for one


    For that match maby, but you both can just go back and re attune anything you want. There is no choice beyond ascetics when you have every spell.


    sir that a little vague because you're saying that every high level has the same equip,weapon,magic,etc

    If you are optimizing for pvp, you sure as heck are.

    we high level users are not "god" we can lose to a lvl 50 if the guy has more skill than us buddy

    Skill is the most important aspect of the game and while the above is true, you don't have varied playstyles when you have acces to the best of every world. If you don't have to chose between strength or dexterity, magic or miracles, then the best weapon is automatically the smart choice.


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:24 am

    Eliteknight wrote:
    Scudman_Slayer wrote:
    well for me high level is fair game

    where as a high level you can wear anything you damn well want your statement "hgih level people wear the heaviest of armors and poise"

    a little bit arrogant because for me at least you're implying that every high level person uses heavy armor and poise thats is wrong

    i can kill anyone naked if i wanted due to my skill they could also kill me without any armor at all should their skill surpass mine
    its not all meele on high level liek everyone says people use magic spells,miracles,pyromancies normally

    there's just a bit more variety than being limited to only this stuff i have when i make a 120 build

    There really isn't any variety at max level for serious pvp. There really isn't. Because the only intelligent gearset is havel's armor plus whatever weapon does the most damage on parry/backstab.

    Having max equip burden doesn't give you any armor choices, it just means the armor with the most poise/defence is automatically the best choice.

    The amount of skill to get success in pvp doesn't change, you will still lose to someone better than you at max level. The difference is that at 120, you have to play and <i>build</i> your character well. You have to give stuff up, accept limitations and make up for them in your playstyle.

    You go up to high, you lose the RP identity of your character and you lose the fun of having to use your head to come up with a build you like. What your left with is only like a third of the game.

    simply for the fact that he may be using pyromancies and i may be using miracles for one


    For that match maby, but you both can just go back and re attune anything you want. There is no choice beyond ascetics when you have every spell.


    sir that a little vague because you're saying that every high level has the same equip,weapon,magic,etc

    If you are optimizing for pvp, you sure as heck are.

    we high level users are not "god" we can lose to a lvl 50 if the guy has more skill than us buddy

    Skill is the most important aspect of the game and while the above is true, you don't have varied playstyles when you have acces to the best of every world. If you don't have to chose between strength or dexterity, magic or miracles, then the best weapon is automatically the smart choice.


    so you're saying that high levels ALL use the same gear same strategy?
    really?!

    dude you can use whathever you want for pvp on high level thats what variety is you can re-attune sure but you're never gonna find an opponent thats the same as you

    i for one don't use havel's neither giant's armor for PVP on high level i use whathever the hell i feel like and that is eastern armor with havel's gloves for some extra poise
    and my little black knight halberd (pretty underrated weapon)

    or my full elite knight armor set with a straight sword +15 darkmoon blade
    i still win on PVP AND none of my opponent were using the stuff you mentioned


    so that little argument that all high levels use havel's and best weapons
    doesn't work on me
    neither on a lot of high level people


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Eliteknight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:34 am

    Scudman_Slayer wrote:

    so you're saying that high levels ALL use the same gear same strategy?
    really?!

    dude you can use whathever you want for pvp on high level thats what variety is you can re-attune sure but you're never gonna find an opponent thats the same as you

    They are ALL the same as you at max level. They have the same stats exactly. People may use "whatever they want" at max level when they aren't optimizing for pvp. But if they are making smart choices about how to play their character there is only the smartest decision left. That is just a fact.

    i for one don't use havel's neither giant's armor for PVP on high level i use whathever the hell i feel like and that is eastern armor with havel's gloves for some extra poise
    and my little black knight halberd (pretty underrated weapon)

    or my full elite knight armor set with a straight sword +15 darkmoon blade
    i still win on PVP AND none of my opponent were using the stuff you mentioned

    Anecdotal evidence is unprovable and has no use if we are having a serious discussion about this. It comes down to the facts. If you are making smart choices to maximize your effectiveness in pvp only the smartest choice matters. In effect, there is no choice.



    Skill is the majority of pvp, making a solid character build and having to make choices about playstyle is a big part of that skill and that goes away at max level.

    It doesn't matter how many players you say beat you with no poise, having poise is still a smarter choice than having none. That is a fact. :/


    Last edited by Eliteknight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:24 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:41 am

    Eliteknight wrote:
    Scudman_Slayer wrote:

    so you're saying that high levels ALL use the same gear same strategy?
    really?!

    dude you can use whathever you want for pvp on high level thats what variety is you can re-attune sure but you're never gonna find an opponent thats the same as you

    They are ALL the same as you at max level. They have the same stats exactly. People may use "whatever they want" at max level when they aren't optimizing for pvp. But if they are making smart choices about how to play their character there is only the smartest decision left. That is just a fact.

    i for one don't use havel's neither giant's armor for PVP on high level i use whathever the hell i feel like and that is eastern armor with havel's gloves for some extra poise
    and my little black knight halberd (pretty underrated weapon)

    or my full elite knight armor set with a straight sword +15 darkmoon blade
    i still win on PVP AND none of my opponent were using the stuff you mentioned

    Anecdotal evidence is unprovable and has no use if we are having a serious discussion about this. It comes down to the facts. If you are making smart choices to maximize your effectiveness in pvp only the smartest choice matters. In effect, there is no choice.


    dude you just took that statement out of your ass
    because you've probably never tried high level PVP and if you did you didn't like it because the guy owned you because he had more skills than you did

    not everything is the same its very VERY stupid to say that at high levels everything is the same and its even more stupid to hold to that argument

    what you're saying is that everything is the same on high level pvp

    do you have proof? because you said that my evidence was unprivable so what evidence do you have?


    (well this thread became a very hostile discussion didn't it?)


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Eliteknight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:56 am

    Scudman_Slayer wrote:
    dude you just took that statement out of your ass
    because you've probably never tried high level PVP and if you did you didn't like it because the guy owned you because he had more skills than you did

    not everything is the same its very VERY stupid to say that at high levels everything is the same and its even more stupid to hold to that argument

    what you're saying is that everything is the same on high level pvp

    do you have proof? because you said that my evidence was unprivable so what evidence do you have?

    (well this thread became a very hostile discussion didn't it?)

    You claim that I have no experience with high level pvp, you cannot possibly know this so you are jumping to conclusions not me. Then you go on knowing nothing about how I play and assume that because I disagree with you I must be bad at this game.

    Would be like if I took your statement about getting one shotted by CSS and said that only baddies get hit by that so you must not have the skill for 120 pvp. I just want to put into perspective how rude you just decided to be.
    '
    I have proof of my argument because its based on facts about max level stat scaling.

    You have more than enough equip burden to use the highest poise armor and fast roll. fact

    Having poise lets you take more hits before getting stunned and is a smart stat to have in pvp. fact

    Therefore having the armor that gives me the most poise is the best choice if I want the best chance of winning. fact

    Unless the previous statements are provably untrue, we come to the conclusion that if you want to max your chances of victory in pvp at level cap you use havels armor set because it has the most poise. In conclusion, serious pvp at level cap will have everybody in havel's armor set.

    I can guess what the best weapon would be too, but I can open the calculator and tell you if you want the exact number.

    I really don't want you to get angry, I'm not attacking you. I'm simply saying logically there is only one conclusion to having all your stats maxed out. Numbers don't lie.


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Zakkia on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:01 am

    For max stats? Greatsword of artorias. ._.
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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:05 am

    Eliteknight wrote:
    Scudman_Slayer wrote:
    dude you just took that statement out of your ass
    because you've probably never tried high level PVP and if you did you didn't like it because the guy owned you because he had more skills than you did

    not everything is the same its very VERY stupid to say that at high levels everything is the same and its even more stupid to hold to that argument

    what you're saying is that everything is the same on high level pvp

    do you have proof? because you said that my evidence was unprivable so what evidence do you have?

    (well this thread became a very hostile discussion didn't it?)

    You claim that I have no experience with high level pvp, you cannot possibly know this so you are jumping to conclusions not me. Then you go on knowing nothing about how I play and assume that because I disagree with you I must be bad at this game.

    Would be like if I took your statement about getting one shotted by CSS and said that only baddies get hit by that so you must not have the skill for 120 pvp. I just want to put into perspective how rude you just decided to be.
    '
    I have proof of my argument because its based on facts about max level stat scaling.

    You have more than enough equip burden to use the highest poise armor and fast roll. fact

    Having poise lets you take more hits before getting stunned and is a smart stat to have in pvp. fact

    Therefore having the armor that gives me the most poise is the best choice if I want the best chance of winning. fact

    Unless the previous statements are provably untrue, we come to the conclusion that if you want to max your chances of victory in pvp at level cap you use havels armor set because it has the most poise. In conclusion, serious pvp at level cap will have everybody in havel's armor set.

    I can guess what the best weapon would be too, but I can open the calculator and tell you if you want the exact number.

    I really don't want you to get angry, I'm not attacking you. I'm simply saying logically there is only one conclusion to having all your stats maxed out.


    wow ok keep your mentality like that keep saying that high levels are the same damn thing without even trying to give some evidence or proof
    by saying that those are facts means that you have no proof and means that what i said about the armor i use is not true because it isn't a fact that the community chosen so it isn't true because of that,am i right?

    im not attacking oyu either but dude if the community says it is a fact i don't buy it i prefer to see from my own eyes and see if its true or not

    i get the impression that you never ever tried going high level to see if that is true or not

    just because the community declares to be a fact doesn't mean its true you need to see it with your own eyes to see the truth of things bud

    high level PVP is a LOT diferent that everything you said it was, but you won't believe it because it isn't a "fact" will you?


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:06 am

    Zakkia wrote:For max stats? Greatsword of artorias. ._.

    actually no there is a lot of people that don't use that even on high levels trust me i have yet to encounter someone that uses it from my experience man
    most people are custom using the weapons they want and not what is best for their characters's stats


    Last edited by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:07 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Eliteknight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:06 am

    Scudman_Slayer wrote:


    wow ok keep your mentality like that
    keep saying that high levels are the same damn thing without even
    trying to give some evidence or proof
    by saying that those are facts
    means that you have no proof and means that what i said about the armor i
    use is not true because it isn't a fact that the community chosen so it
    isn't true because of that,am i right?

    im not attacking oyu
    either but dude if the community says it is a fact i don't buy it i
    prefer to see from my own eyes and see if its true or not

    i get the impression that you never ever tried going high level to see if that is true or not

    just
    because the community declares to be a fact doesn't mean its true you
    need to see it with your own eyes to see the truth of things bud

    high level PVP is a LOT diferent that everything you said it was, but you won't believe it because it isn't a "fact" will you?

    If its not provable, no I won't. I did give evidence and proof. I made a
    hypothesis, I gave reasoning for this hypothesis, then I looked at the
    numbers and made a conclusion based on the facts.

    actually no there is a lot of people that don't use that even on high
    levels trust me i have yet to encounter someone that uses it from my
    experience man
    most people are custom using the weapons they want and not what is best for their characters's stats

    People you are assuring us you have seen doing well under unspecific conditions
    using gear for reasons we can only guess as to why are not a valid
    sample for reaching a conclusion. We have no idea who is maxing out
    thier pvp performance and who is running around in cool clothes for
    giggles. But based on the numbers I could probably tell you who is who
    (hint=the ones in havels set are min maxing)

    Perhaps you do see a lot of variety in the pvp up there. That could be due to the fact that
    armor sets that max level people use don't matter when they are sitting
    in the burg farming lowbie darkwraiths. That could be because alot of
    the people who go that high have more of a pve mindset and their gear
    reflects that. But I don't know what they are thinking when I see them,
    or why they do what they do. So a conclusion is just about impossible
    to reach.

    To put it simply, that you claim to remember a bunch of totally varied and different pvp encounters is unprovable and not a hard fact. I can say that I fought a bunch of people who invaded with no poise and only used a dragon bone fist, or someone who only cast
    poison mist and threw dung pies at level 120 in the kilin and they beat me, so those playstyles must totally be balenced and varied right? I remember it so its true, ding pie flinging while naked is totally a legit character spec right? That is the argument you want me to swallow.


    Last edited by Eliteknight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:26 am; edited 5 times in total


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:26 am

    Eliteknight wrote:
    Scudman_Slayer wrote:


    wow ok keep your mentality like that keep saying that high levels are the same damn thing without even trying to give some evidence or proof
    by saying that those are facts means that you have no proof and means that what i said about the armor i use is not true because it isn't a fact that the community chosen so it isn't true because of that,am i right?

    im not attacking oyu either but dude if the community says it is a fact i don't buy it i prefer to see from my own eyes and see if its true or not

    i get the impression that you never ever tried going high level to see if that is true or not

    just because the community declares to be a fact doesn't mean its true you need to see it with your own eyes to see the truth of things bud

    high level PVP is a LOT diferent that everything you said it was, but you won't believe it because it isn't a "fact" will you?

    If its not provable, no I won't. I did give evidence and proof. I made a hypothesis, I gave reasoning for this hypothesis, then I looked at the numbers and made a conclusion based on the facts.

    People you are assuring us you have seen doing well under unspecific conditions using gear for reasons we can only guess as to why are not a valid sample for reaching a conclusion. We have no idea who is maxing out thier pvp performance and who is running around in cool clothes for giggles. But based on the numbers I could probably tell you who is who (hint=the ones in havels set are min maxing)

    Perhaps you do see a lot of variety in the pvp up there. That could be due to the fact that armor sets that max level people use don't matter when they are sitting in the burg farming lowbie darkwraiths. That could be because alot of the people who go that high have more of a pve mindset and their gear reflects that. But I don't know what they are thinking when I see them, or why they do what they do. So a conclusion is just about impossible to reach.


    ok lets end this really stupid discussion that we started shall we?

    from my experience no one that i ever invaded as a lvl 200 never were using havel's neither smoughs or giants they were using whathever htey wanted

    even if it maximizes their chances of winning on PVP most don't use them they use whathever they feel like i have yet to see someone that is high level using an artorias sword or grant with havel's armor on hell im yet to see someone using any of them really

    everyone is entlitled to their own opinions that depends from their experience so yeah

    and i believe people that are high level that camp on burg to farm darkwraiths are actually helping the low level people hwo just started in a way because most invasions over there (at least for me) were from people with high level equipment

    so in a way they're helping the low levels

    you think its not the way the game is supposed to be played
    i think its the way the game is supposed to be played

    discussing this won't come up with anything im just saying that from my experience high level PVP its completely the opposite of what you think it is

    i respect your opinion and im not looking for a figth with you so im just asking you to respect my opinion k? peace ok?
    you got your point out and i also got my point out
    there's no need for more discusssion

    i don't want you to swallow anything btw


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Eliteknight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:40 am

    Scudman_Slayer wrote:


    ok lets end this really stupid discussion that we started shall we?

    from my experience no one that i ever invaded as a lvl 200 never were using havel's neither smoughs or giants they were using whathever htey wanted

    even if it maximizes their chances of winning on PVP most don't use them they use whathever they feel like i have yet to see someone that is high level using an artorias sword or grant with havel's armor on hell im yet to see someone using any of them really

    everyone is entlitled to their own opinions that depends from their experience so yeah

    and i believe people that are high level that camp on burg to farm darkwraiths are actually helping the low level people hwo just started in a way because most invasions over there (at least for me) were from people with high level equipment

    so in a way they're helping the low levels

    you think its not the way the game is supposed to be played
    i think its the way the game is supposed to be played

    discussing this won't come up with anything im just saying that from my experience high level PVP its completely the opposite of what you think it is

    i respect your opinion and im not looking for a figth with you so im just asking you to respect my opinion k? peace ok?
    you got your point out and i also got my point out
    there's no need for more discusssion

    Unprovable anecdotes aren't facts. Your personal experiences don't change the actual facts. If we are trying to have a logically grounded discussion, we cannot move forward based on "that one time I saw"

    I'm happy that you enjoy high level characters. I'm really happy you are having fun. Seriously, good for you. Play exactly how you want. But if any serious pvp was to take place at max level I am telling you, the best chances of winning comes from the best armor sets and weapons.

    You may have fun running around in elite knights armor all the time, I know I do, it looks great. But if we are being honest here, there are armor sets we prefer for the look and armor we use because it offers the most advantages, If we are being totally honest here then at 99 endurance, there is only one smart choice. I don't see why you would use anything else. There may be one maybe two other armor sets worth using in specific circumstances.


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:48 am

    Eliteknight wrote:
    Scudman_Slayer wrote:


    ok lets end this really stupid discussion that we started shall we?

    from my experience no one that i ever invaded as a lvl 200 never were using havel's neither smoughs or giants they were using whathever htey wanted

    even if it maximizes their chances of winning on PVP most don't use them they use whathever they feel like i have yet to see someone that is high level using an artorias sword or grant with havel's armor on hell im yet to see someone using any of them really

    everyone is entlitled to their own opinions that depends from their experience so yeah

    and i believe people that are high level that camp on burg to farm darkwraiths are actually helping the low level people hwo just started in a way because most invasions over there (at least for me) were from people with high level equipment

    so in a way they're helping the low levels

    you think its not the way the game is supposed to be played
    i think its the way the game is supposed to be played

    discussing this won't come up with anything im just saying that from my experience high level PVP its completely the opposite of what you think it is

    i respect your opinion and im not looking for a figth with you so im just asking you to respect my opinion k? peace ok?
    you got your point out and i also got my point out
    there's no need for more discusssion

    Unprovable anecdotes aren't facts. Your personal experiences don't change the actual facts. If we are trying to have a logically grounded discussion, we cannot move forward based on "that one time I saw"

    I'm happy that you enjoy high level characters. I'm really happy you are having fun. Seriously, good for you. Play exactly how you want. But if any serious pvp was to take place at max level I am telling you, the best chances of winning comes from the best armor sets and weapons.

    You may have fun running around in elite knights armor all the time, I know I do it looks great. But if we are being honest here, there are armor sets we prefer for the look and armor we use because it offers the most advantages, If we are being totally honest here then at 99 endurance, there is only one smart choice. I don't see why you would use anything else. There may be one maybe two other armor sets worth using in specific circumstances.


    well most lvl 200 have only around 40-60 endurance i don't have 99 and i swear to god i will smack someone who place it at 99 because its stupid really

    i have 66 endurance which gives me 100 equip burden meaning i can't wear full havel's and i don't think anyone can either withouth using the havel's ring to not be in medium movement

    all i have to say is nothing is what the facts say they say that all max lvls have maxed out endurance thats not true why? because most have around 40-60 as i've said we don't have any stats maxed out man to max stuff out we would need to be around lvl 300 or so maxing something out to 99 would waste a lot of points

    but i have to agree 99 endurance you can use havel's without too much trouble but the thing is everyone just stick to endurance around 60 or so so they can place those other 39 points into other stats that would be more beneficial

    you see my point?


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Eliteknight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:05 am

    Scudman_Slayer wrote:


    well most lvl 200 have only around 40-60 endurance i don't have 99 and i swear to god i will smack someone who place it at 99 because its stupid really

    i have 66 endurance which gives me 100 equip burden meaning i can't wear full havel's and i don't think anyone can either withouth using the havel's ring to not be in medium movement

    all i have to say is nothing is what the facts say they say that all max lvls have maxed out endurance thats not true why? because most have around 40-60 as i've said we don't have any stats maxed out man to max stuff out we would need to be around lvl 300 or so maxing something out to 99 would waste a lot of points

    but i have to agree 99 endurance you can use havel's without too much trouble but the thing is everyone just stick to endurance around 60 or so so they can place those other 39 points into other stats that would be more beneficial

    you see my point?

    At max level you don't have any more useful stats than endurance because raising that gives access to more poise. Raising any of the other damage stats past 50 would be a waste of points in comparison because damage stats have diminishing returns but endurance continues to raise your survivability exponentially the more poise you can get per point.

    That is why you can't go all that much higher than 120. 150 could work, 200 maybe but endurance ends up giving more return overall so the first thing that happens when you get higher and higher is everybody who wants to seriously pvp very quickly all start using the same armor.

    I can see why you may also want to up vitality, there may be some merit to that but there are better options for hp increases and like I said, endurance becomes a poise stat.

    I may be wrong of course. Someone smarter than me could come in here with a spreadsheet and tell me I'm wrong somehow. I'm fairly sure I'm pretty close to the mark though.


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:17 am

    Eliteknight wrote:
    Scudman_Slayer wrote:


    well most lvl 200 have only around 40-60 endurance i don't have 99 and i swear to god i will smack someone who place it at 99 because its stupid really

    i have 66 endurance which gives me 100 equip burden meaning i can't wear full havel's and i don't think anyone can either withouth using the havel's ring to not be in medium movement

    all i have to say is nothing is what the facts say they say that all max lvls have maxed out endurance thats not true why? because most have around 40-60 as i've said we don't have any stats maxed out man to max stuff out we would need to be around lvl 300 or so maxing something out to 99 would waste a lot of points

    but i have to agree 99 endurance you can use havel's without too much trouble but the thing is everyone just stick to endurance around 60 or so so they can place those other 39 points into other stats that would be more beneficial

    you see my point?

    At max level you don't have any more useful stats than endurance because raising that gives access to more poise. Raising any of the other damage stats past 50 would be a waste of points in comparison because damage stats have diminishing returns but endurance continues to raise your survivability exponentially the more poise you can get per point.

    That is why you can't go all that much higher than 120. 150 could work, 200 maybe but endurance ends up giving more return overall so the first thing that happens when you get higher and higher is everybody who wants to seriously pvp very quickly all start using the same armor.

    I can see why you may also want to up vitality, there may be some merit to that but there are better options for hp increases and like I said, endurance becomes a poise stat.

    I may be wrong of course. Someone smarter than me could come in here with a spreadsheet and tell me I'm wrong somehow. I'm fairly sure I'm pretty close to the mark though.



    you are however think about this


    if a guy will spend all his points to get endurance to 99

    he won't be able to make good use out of STR,DEX,VIT,INT or FAITH well maybe
    however he wouldn't be able to make more than one stat go past 50 i think (correct me if im wrong)

    im just saying i see more benefits getting faith to 50 or int to 50 because of the spell you get for that stat whern its lvl 50 so there is a benefit like WDB is great for PVE for example


    Last edited by Scudman_Slayer on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Explanation to SL Cap for PvP

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:21 am

    I will attempt to do some mediating here. Eliteknight is looking at the numbers and math to reach his conclusions. Scudman is looking at his experiences to reach his conclusions. I will say this now, BOTH sides are correct.

    EliteKnight is correct on everything he has said, at least when looking at this from an entirely theoretical perspective. Somebody building exclusively with the almost robotic purpose of winning in mind will take the absolute best stats they can get per armor/weapon/ring slot, and two characters with exactly the same stats and exactly this mindset will in fact be exactly the same. The problem lies in that people are not robots, and while most of us do play to win, we do not do so with that as our only goal, usually preferring to say "I can win with this" as opposed to just "I can win." There will be similarities in builds such as everyone will use at least some heavy armor in their builds for poise, or that they will use weapons with high scaling instead of elemental, or they will use spells regardless of their weapon/armor choice, but there will also be variance in personal tastes such as if the spells in question are sorceries or miracles or if they chose a Dragon's Tooth instead of a Gravelord Sword.

    I believe there are not many of us here quite as used to high level PvP as Scudman, and for any of us to completely discredit his perspective based of his experiences would be wrong. If he says there is indeed variety in high level play, then there most likely is some amount of variety in high level play. However, based on his words, I can only infer that Scudman seems to be saying that people will ONLY use their personal tastes to decide what they use and create this variety, and this is simply not true. We all want to win to some degree, and this desire to win translates into our desire to optimize for stats. Each player will have some amount of personal flavor in their build, but nobody with 40-50 endurance will willingly equip all light armor with no poise with the expectation of winning consistently. That is to say, optimizing for stats is something we "felt like" doing, though only at the theoretical extreme will this be taken to the level described by EliteKnight. If a person is level 250 wearing Stone Armor mixed with Paladin Armor and casting Miracles, while another is level 250 wearing Havel's Armor mixed with Domhall's Explorer Armor and casting sorceries, then yes, strategically, both builds will play differently, creating variety in combat. But in terms of build structure these two characters have very little difference between them.

    With high level PvP comes a loss in the variety of character build structure, but not build or combat variety.

    And because I'm me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pmjA59Bb0w&feature=related


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