Do you want a hard mode?

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    Do you want a hard mode?

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    eminusx
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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by eminusx on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:01 pm

    doesnt 'standard' and 'experienced' simply equate to 'normal' and 'hard' mode, just using different words?

    I understand people wanting it to be difficult, but any form of choice or distinction at the start undermines one of the core principles of DS, the base game is a universal leveller, a right of passage that all must take. It makes more sense to have just one difficulty in NG, then make changes or add incentives at ng+ or ++ and so on. How would these differences in difficulty work with invasions etc?

    Ultimately I still think playing DS should be about core gameplay, not how many times you can ng+++, but that part is inevitable so they should at least be tactful in how they add incentives or rewards. DS is a poem of restraint, it would be a shame to ruin it and go overboard.


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by Peaceful Wollyhop on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:48 pm

    You don't need a hard mode. The game is as hard as you wanna make it.


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by Avenger649 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:08 pm

    If we have a hard mode that implies that one mode is easier than the other and that Is what I want to avoid.
    If you want to make the game harder it should be through limiting yourself, not through artificial difficulty.


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:15 pm

    eminusx wrote:
    I understand people wanting it to be difficult, but any form of choice or distinction at the start undermines one of the core principles of DS, the base game is a universal leveller, a right of passage that all must take. It makes more sense to have just one difficulty in NG, then make changes or add incentives at ng+ or ++ and so on. How would these differences in difficulty work with invasions etc?


    Good point. I concede.


    I was just thinking about how when I went to Demons Souls and played it blindly but after DKS how easy it was. Sure, objectively Demons Souls is a little bit easier, at least at white world tendency, but the big difference was that I already know the game formula. I know FROMs tricks, and I know how to use the different weapon types and how to read and exploit enemies right off the bat. I was thinking that if DKSII isn't either very different or much much more difficult, experienced players like myself and most of the rest of the community will breeze through the game.
    I guess I could answer that question by asking the guys who played Demons Souls first, "Was Dark Souls very hard for you, already knowing the games mechanics?"

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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:30 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:

    Em... No. I want the series' difficulty to remain the same, but I also want an option to have an EVEN HIGHER challenge than the normal-already-difficult experience. SL1 as Serious said, it's plain stupid, as it would be boring because of how long it takes to kill everything.

    I just want a way to make all the monsters stronger and also that more monsters appear. But I don't want any modification to the original formula, neither I want an easier mode.

    Let's say, something like this: You beat the game, then when you create a new character, you have the choice of "Enable Dark Mode", that causes every enemy to be a black phantom, even bosses. That doesn't modify the original formula, doesn't make it easier, but gives the chance to veterans to test even further their skill without recurring to ridicolous self-imposed limits like SL1 runs.

    Actually chiz, I was referring to black phantom mode as dumb, whether you do an sl1 run or normal with black phantoms it will be stupid either way. You're just dressing up essentially the same turd of a solution in two different jackets, while suggesting one is better than the other.

    No, because Black Phantoms have increased health and attack power, you can still develop your character in any way you want, but beating enemies is way harder. While in SL1 yourself have decreased attack power (thus increasing fights' length), and you are limited to your character development, because of this everyone "equals" a Black Phantom as most things will kill you in 1 hit. They are not the same thing AT ALL.

    And my suggestion is not equal to NG+, because NG+ sends your already existing character that just beat the game to the start of the game but with everything harder, what I'm saying, it's that once you beat the game with any character, every time you CREATE A NEW CHARACTER, you are given the option to start in the "Dark Mode" which is already harder from the start.

    Chiz, them having higher health, or you doing lower damage is the same difference that it takes longer, least any way i could possibly spin it the outcome seems identical. I still don't think there needs to be an extra 'mode'. Don't you think the game would lose it's charm if we just got modes thrown at us instead of developing the signature idea they've cradled from day 1?

    I agree with everyone else that NG+ is where you get the inorganic extra difficulty thing. I agree also improving (not necessarily making it harder), NG+ and beyond is the way to go.

    Though at the same time I think anyone on NG+7 saying that it's not hard enough needs to take a look at themselves how much time they've wasted to become as good as they are lol!


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by carlucio on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:23 pm

    No, i don't like multiple difficulties, but a hardcore mode with perma death would be great.
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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by eminusx on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:25 am

    BIG TIME MASTER wrote:
    eminusx wrote:
    I understand people wanting it to be difficult, but any form of choice or distinction at the start undermines one of the core principles of DS, the base game is a universal leveller, a right of passage that all must take. It makes more sense to have just one difficulty in NG, then make changes or add incentives at ng+ or ++ and so on. How would these differences in difficulty work with invasions etc?


    Good point. I concede.


    I was just thinking about how when I went to Demons Souls and played it blindly but after DKS how easy it was. Sure, objectively Demons Souls is a little bit easier, at least at white world tendency, but the big difference was that I already know the game formula. I know FROMs tricks, and I know how to use the different weapon types and how to read and exploit enemies right off the bat. I was thinking that if DKSII isn't either very different or much much more difficult, experienced players like myself and most of the rest of the community will breeze through the game.
    I guess I could answer that question by asking the guys who played Demons Souls first, "Was Dark Souls very hard for you, already knowing the games mechanics?"

    I played DkS first also, 11 or 12 full playthroughs, one or two up to NG++, then picked up a cheap PS3 for DeS only two months ago, so when I finally got to Boletaria I knew what I was doing and it didnt pose too many major problems, so I totally get where youre coming from.
    It stands to reason that if youre a seasoned Dark Soul then youre gonna find DkSII a fair deal easier to get to grips with.
    I think this is where NG+ will come into its own, I'm hoping the overall difficulty will be high in NG and i'll probably try and cap my SL on the first playthrough, avoid wiki's, avoid farming, take silly risks and just try and have fun and not worry about creating a super tough build, just a good lookin one, and then explore things a bit deeper in NG+. . .
    I think you know when youre taking an easy option to get a weapon, farming, or you find a way through a tough spot by reading a wiki, if you avoid all that then its automatically gonna be tougher, more interesting and feel like more of an achievement when you succeed, its much more in the spirit of the game too!


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:43 am

    Yes, if I have the chance to play DKSII I will definitely keep it a blind playthrough, as I did with Demon Souls. And I usually do base my builds mostly off of aesthetics anyhow. I just don't like having to artificially limit myself, you know? I feel like it is a better experience if the games rules alone are harsh enough to thoroughly challenge me.

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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by DE5PA1R on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:57 pm

    Nope. Would ruin balance.

    Not everyone realizes how much thought goes into perfecting the difficulty of the Souls games. Where was the first time you found a Large titanite Shard? Hint: EXACTLY where you needed it. No later. No sooner.*

    This stuff is genius.

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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:14 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:

    Em... No. I want the series' difficulty to remain the same, but I also want an option to have an EVEN HIGHER challenge than the normal-already-difficult experience. SL1 as Serious said, it's plain stupid, as it would be boring because of how long it takes to kill everything.

    I just want a way to make all the monsters stronger and also that more monsters appear. But I don't want any modification to the original formula, neither I want an easier mode.

    Let's say, something like this: You beat the game, then when you create a new character, you have the choice of "Enable Dark Mode", that causes every enemy to be a black phantom, even bosses. That doesn't modify the original formula, doesn't make it easier, but gives the chance to veterans to test even further their skill without recurring to ridicolous self-imposed limits like SL1 runs.

    Actually chiz, I was referring to black phantom mode as dumb, whether you do an sl1 run or normal with black phantoms it will be stupid either way. You're just dressing up essentially the same turd of a solution in two different jackets, while suggesting one is better than the other.

    No, because Black Phantoms have increased health and attack power, you can still develop your character in any way you want, but beating enemies is way harder. While in SL1 yourself have decreased attack power (thus increasing fights' length), and you are limited to your character development, because of this everyone "equals" a Black Phantom as most things will kill you in 1 hit. They are not the same thing AT ALL.

    And my suggestion is not equal to NG+, because NG+ sends your already existing character that just beat the game to the start of the game but with everything harder, what I'm saying, it's that once you beat the game with any character, every time you CREATE A NEW CHARACTER, you are given the option to start in the "Dark Mode" which is already harder from the start.

    Chiz, them having higher health, or you doing lower damage is the same difference that it takes longer, least any way i could possibly spin it the outcome seems identical. I still don't think there needs to be an extra 'mode'. Don't you think the game would lose it's charm if we just got modes thrown at us instead of developing the signature idea they've cradled from day 1?

    I agree with everyone else that NG+ is where you get the inorganic extra difficulty thing. I agree also improving (not necessarily making it harder), NG+ and beyond is the way to go.

    Though at the same time I think anyone on NG+7 saying that it's not hard enough needs to take a look at themselves how much time they've wasted to become as good as they are lol!

    Well, I admit my main focus is to have anything harder post-NG, I mean as you said, NG+ needs modifications, not just a plain 40% increase in everything. I just want something to make PvE harder once I beat the game, I want the game to EVOLVE constantly everytime I beat it, because let's face it, once you get to NG+, it's the same thing, same monsters, same places, yeah they take more damage and do more damage, but that's it, same strategies to beat them apply, you can use shortcuts, etc. I want the gameworld to change and actually become more difficult, because NG+ and beyond for me is plain boring because it's like I'm doing the exact same thing with less health and a crappier weapon.

    It's not gonna happen though... lazy devs probably will go with a plain boring 40% increase for NG+... I guess it's another thing to write up for my future games.


    Last edited by ChizFreak on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by DE5PA1R on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:23 pm

    It's not gonna happen though... lazy devs probably will go with a plain boring 40% increase for NG+... I guess it's another thing to write up for my future games.

    Lazy devs. Wat.

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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:31 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:
    It's not gonna happen though... lazy devs probably will go with a plain boring 40% increase for NG+... I guess it's another thing to write up for my future games.

    Lazy devs. Wat.


    You don't think the way they treat NG+ is plain and boring?


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by DE5PA1R on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:37 pm

    See my previous post on this page about the perfection-level difficulty of Souls.

    Also see here for my take on NG+ discussion. http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t18277-ng-necessary-improvements


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by Acarnatia on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:42 pm

    The only other way to treat it is to give it stuff that's missing in the first playthrough altogether, which makes the first playthrough incomplete. The only way to make the game really 'evolve' it to make do exactly that-evolve. Regardless of how many times they improve the AI, they can only program in so many different AIs, especially considering the time they have available and other resources, which will eventually leave us with the same problem, only (maybe) a little harder. The only way to bypass this is to constantly alter the AI which requires either frequent patches or make it so the game can alter itself-self altering programs based on information input into the game. (such as altering strategies based on how certain enemies died) Frequent patches is difficult, resource-consuming and the different strategies may make certain enemies even easier to defeat for certain builds, and will require the player to be online to access this. The self-altering method, while I think is certainly possible, (and is something I really hope games tap into one day) I think programmers just aren't there quite yet and won't be by the time Dark Souls 2 comes out.


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:53 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:The only other way to treat it is to give it stuff that's missing in the first playthrough altogether, which makes the first playthrough incomplete. The only way to make the game really 'evolve' it to make do exactly that-evolve. Regardless of how many times they improve the AI, they can only program in so many different AIs, especially considering the time they have available and other resources, which will eventually leave us with the same problem, only (maybe) a little harder. The only way to bypass this is to constantly alter the AI which requires either frequent patches or make it so the game can alter itself-self altering programs based on information input into the game. (such as altering strategies based on how certain enemies died) Frequent patches is difficult, resource-consuming and the different strategies may make certain enemies even easier to defeat for certain builds, and will require the player to be online to access this. The self-altering method, while I think is certainly possible, (and is something I really hope games tap into one day) I think programmers just aren't there quite yet and won't be by the time Dark Souls 2 comes out.

    I think you don't quite understand how that works... frequent patches are hard, but are in no way an option to make the game evolve. At least not the way I meant it. I mean evolve in the way NG+ changes certain aspects of the world/enemies, a common and easy to do example is what you said: modify the AI. Very easy, just duplicate the original enemy, and add "intelligent" behaviours to it's AI then put it only in NG+. That's why I mean with evolve. I mean change things, don't just increase health and damage, that's plain boring AND LAZY. Make NG+'s enemies be faster, had better senses, make more combos, parry you more often, there are SEVERAL ways to make an enemy harder besides just increase his health and damage. And it's not very hard once you have the base enemy developed.

    Finally almost no balancing is required because we are talking solely about PvE and in NG+, so players should be well equipped and ready to face anything. Making NG+ this way, will add that surprise factor that NG+ and beyond is missing.

    Don't you guys loved your first playthrough? Playing truly blindly? Well, what I'm proposing, is to modify elements so at least you have a tiny part of that feeling in NG+.


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by DE5PA1R on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:08 pm

    My issue with addressing the NG+ "problem" is that the majority of proposed "solutions" severely nerf NG. If the AI gets smarter in NG+, then NG is not everything it could be. If a boss uses an attack in NG+ that it doesn't use in NG, then NG is not everything it could be. And frankly, that's crap. I want the most extreme game possible starting from the moment the disc goes into the console.

    If you think it's lazy to make an awesome enemy and include it in NG AND NG+ then you're seriously mistaken. These people dedicate their genius and bust their asses for us players. You ought to be thanking them but instead you're complaining because they refuse to compromise the integrity of NG. ********.


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by Acarnatia on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:11 pm

    Yes I do. I'm saying that that's just not possible (besides being 'unfair' to the first playthrough) because that means that the creators have to make an entirely new AI for each NG+ level, and the exact same trial-and-error gameplay will eventually make those new AI patterns just as obsolete and predictable.
    As it currently is, AI is bad compared to human intelligence because there's only so much they can program. The AI doesn't think about the strategies of every weapon and armor combination, isn't going to account for lag to the same degree players will; it doesn't have the intuition and intelligence necessary for a lot of backstab and parrying mechanics; it will not learn to predict the strategies that take advantage of lag, glitches and strange game mechanics the same way players will.
    AI works by a program telling the enemy to attack or defend either when the player(s) perform a certain action, (attacking, coming near it) activate a trigger (such as reducing its health to a certain point) or randomly. It doesn't actually think or alter its strategy which is what is required to make it actually unpredictable and thus more difficult. Even then, it has a limit to what attacks, defenses and movement directions the creators can program in which, while the order may change, will remain the same, and ultimately lead to a few different predictable attacks which creates the same result.
    Without creating something akin to an intuition or will, AI can only respond to stimuli in they way they're programmed to. Those responses are limited to what responses are programmed in, and are thus inherently predictable. While a large number of potential responses can be programmed in, this is still ultimately the same thing and resourceful players will eventually reach the same point; having memorized all the possible responses of the AI and thus will be able to predict it and thus render the larger wealth of responses a near or completely pointless except for appearances.
    It's not at all the the creators are lazy; there's a limit to what AI is capable of doing without an will behind it because it can only react. Even if they technically can make so many different attacks and defensive moves as to simply be too many to predict, the same methods using the dark souls system can all be reacted to with just a different basic strategies (strafe and backstab, roll backstab, parry and riposte, hold shield while backing away then attacking when his/her/its guard is down) will still render it almost pointless, and that doesn't cover how much time it takes to program all of those. No game creators have yet had the time and resources to program that many AI reactions in just one playthrough, let alone multiple.


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:22 pm

    Calling the FROM devs lazy because NG+ isn't an entire overhaul, after they have created a revolutionary game with impeccable attention to detail, near endless replay-ability, beautiful art design and graphics, and a rich lore is pretty ungrateful.

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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:58 pm

    And I am sorry to be so blunt, but I implore you to reconsider that statement, Chizfreak. I think maybe you didn't mean it so literally, but still.

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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:00 pm

    I say NG+ it's not everything it could be. They did the same thing in DkS as it was in Demon's Souls, and as it is in every game. THAT, is lazy. And probably will be like that too in DkS II. But they're not lazy in other aspects.

    It seems some of you don't want NG+ to be an actual challenge instead of the trivial "do everything again" that it's right now. DkS doesn't have random generated items like in other games, in other games going to higher difficulties usually means better loot, but in this game when we only have presetted items that are always in the same place and the top is +15 and similar, going into higher difficulties after you played the game once is going the same things again without anything new. PvE in DkS is based around learning your enemy's moveset, once you know that, everything is trivial.

    If we got something new (like different moveset/more varied moveset/quicker movesets/more parries/or even more enemies) it would make NG+ far more interesting.

    It seems most of you are forgetting the fact you play DkS so much is because (once you knew everything about PvE)) is of PvP. And while PvP is awesome, I want PvE to be more richer, and replayable, instead of being a run for getting items for PvP once you know where all items are and know all lore.

    If there wasn't any PvP, would you replay Dark Souls so much? I know I wouldn't. I would probably create a few characters until I try everything, and knew where every item is, and then I would tired of it. That's what I want them to improve, to make PvE more replayable, to make NG+ more interesting. But seems fanboyism is blinding some people here so they don't see flaws and think Dark Souls (and From) are perfect..


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:51 pm

    BIG TIME MASTER wrote:Calling the FROM devs lazy because NG+ isn't an entire overhaul, after they have created a revolutionary game with impeccable attention to detail, near endless replay-ability, beautiful art design and graphics, and a rich lore is pretty ungrateful.

    I have a feeling though that the new devs will probably add in some unpredictability into the game to make it a bit fresher. They've already shown intent of this with the chariot.

    I'm not hoping for the desperate NG+ overhaul, but I think that they'll make an effort to make levels not just learning where everything is, as much as how to defeat everything, and the kind of tactics and ways you have to employ your skills to surpass the challenge.

    At the moment, doing levels on souls is like learning your way round a race track. I think a bit of change up (at the very least in NG+) would be good.


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by DE5PA1R on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:17 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:I say NG+ it's not everything it could be. They did the same thing in DkS as it was in Demon's Souls, and as it is in every game. THAT, is lazy. And probably will be like that too in DkS II. But they're not lazy in other aspects.

    It seems some of you don't want NG+ to be an actual challenge instead of the trivial "do everything again" that it's right now. DkS doesn't have random generated items like in other games, in other games going to higher difficulties usually means better loot, but in this game when we only have presetted items that are always in the same place and the top is +15 and similar, going into higher difficulties after you played the game once is going the same things again without anything new. PvE in DkS is based around learning your enemy's moveset, once you know that, everything is trivial.

    If we got something new (like different moveset/more varied moveset/quicker movesets/more parries/or even more enemies) it would make NG+ far more interesting.

    It seems most of you are forgetting the fact you play DkS so much is because (once you knew everything about PvE)) is of PvP. And while PvP is awesome, I want PvE to be more richer, and replayable, instead of being a run for getting items for PvP once you know where all items are and know all lore.

    If there wasn't any PvP, would you replay Dark Souls so much? I know I wouldn't. I would probably create a few characters until I try everything, and knew where every item is, and then I would tired of it. That's what I want them to improve, to make PvE more replayable, to make NG+ more interesting. But seems fanboyism is blinding some people here so they don't see flaws and think Dark Souls (and From) are perfect..

    I don't know why I have to keep posting this:

    My issue with addressing the NG+ "problem" is that the majority of proposed "solutions" severely nerf NG. If the AI gets smarter in NG+, then NG is not everything it could be. If a boss uses an attack in NG+ that it doesn't use in NG, then NG is not everything it could be. And frankly, that's crap. I want the most extreme game possible starting from the moment the disc goes into the console.

    Oh, and *** yes I still PvE in Dark Souls. Literally all the time. I'll take a break for a month or so and come back to beat it again. Your assumptions are crap.
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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:28 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:I say NG+ it's not everything it could be. They did the same thing in DkS as it was in Demon's Souls, and as it is in every game. THAT, is lazy. And probably will be like that too in DkS II. But they're not lazy in other aspects.

    It seems some of you don't want NG+ to be an actual challenge instead of the trivial "do everything again" that it's right now. DkS doesn't have random generated items like in other games, in other games going to higher difficulties usually means better loot, but in this game when we only have presetted items that are always in the same place and the top is +15 and similar, going into higher difficulties after you played the game once is going the same things again without anything new. PvE in DkS is based around learning your enemy's moveset, once you know that, everything is trivial.

    If we got something new (like different moveset/more varied moveset/quicker movesets/more parries/or even more enemies) it would make NG+ far more interesting.

    It seems most of you are forgetting the fact you play DkS so much is because (once you knew everything about PvE)) is of PvP. And while PvP is awesome, I want PvE to be more richer, and replayable, instead of being a run for getting items for PvP once you know where all items are and know all lore.

    If there wasn't any PvP, would you replay Dark Souls so much? I know I wouldn't. I would probably create a few characters until I try everything, and knew where every item is, and then I would tired of it. That's what I want them to improve, to make PvE more replayable, to make NG+ more interesting. But seems fanboyism is blinding some people here so they don't see flaws and think Dark Souls (and From) are perfect..

    I don't know why I have to keep posting this:

    My issue with addressing the NG+ "problem" is that the majority of proposed "solutions" severely nerf NG. If the AI gets smarter in NG+, then NG is not everything it could be. If a boss uses an attack in NG+ that it doesn't use in NG, then NG is not everything it could be. And frankly, that's crap. I want the most extreme game possible starting from the moment the disc goes into the console.

    Oh, and *** yes I still PvE in Dark Souls. Literally all the time. I'll take a break for a month or so and come back to beat it again. Your assumptions are crap.

    How long have you been playing? How many hours? Since when?


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:45 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:

    How long have you been playing? How many hours? Since when?

    Chiz, I don't wanna be the guy who says it, but frankly the amount of time you've played the game, you shouldn't be disappointed when you get bored of PvE.

    I myself played before even contemplating pvp around 150-200 hours.

    Frankly if any game keeps anyone interested to play through 40-50 hours it should be proud of itself. I don't think people have a right to complain about finding PvE boring after playing it for x00 or even x000 in your case hours.

    This is besides the point though, we're straying off the topic of hard mode (dumb idea, i'll repeat again) onto discussion of general PvE.


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    Re: Do you want a hard mode?

    Post by DE5PA1R on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:24 pm

    How long have you been playing? How many hours? Since when?

    Not sure why or how that's relevant, but the answer is hundreds of hours. Probably less than 1k, but more than 500. It's basically one of the 2-3 games I've played since it was released (got it same day it came out). I didn't play those others much.

    Again, not sure how that's relevant in the slightest.

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