I don't think breaking covenant counts as a sin. Is there any point to using Oswald to 'Abandon Covenant?'

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    retro
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    I don't think breaking covenant counts as a sin. Is there any point to using Oswald to 'Abandon Covenant?'

    Post by retro on Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:34 am

    According to both wikis, breaking/ abandoning covenant without first going through Oswald is a sin.

    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Oswald+of+Carim
    Known sins are:
    ...Breaking a Covenant pledge.
    Abandon Covenant
    Safely abandons the player's current covenant free of cost and without committing a sin.
    http://darksouls.wikidot.com/sin
    List of possible Sins
    ...Break a Covenant. Either by making NPCs of said covenant hostile or joining another covenant without properly abandoning said covenant thru Oswald.

    But I believe this is false, and using the Abandon Covenant option has nothing to do with preventing sin. Can anyone point out a specific example where breaking covenant is a sin? I think the confusion comes from:

    1) Having the option to abandon covenant through Oswald (making people think it has a purpose)
    2) A few instances where getting kicked out of a covenant happens to come with a sin 'by coincidence'.

    For #2, I think the distinction to make is that there are some actions that can cause you to sin and be kicked out of a covenant at the same time. But the sin acquired isn't obtained by breaking the covenant- rather, the thing that caused you to get kicked out also happened to cause sin.

    That may sound like a pedantic distinction, but I think it's important to know since confusing the two has lead to what I think is an incorrect explanation.

    I haven't yet tested all of the covenants, but here's what I know so far:

    • Leaving the Forest Hunter Covenant for another, without using Oswald, is not a sin
    • Leaving the Chaos Covenant for another, without using Oswald, is not a sin
    • Leaving the Darkmoon Blade Covenant ... is not a sin
    • Leaving the Princess's Guard Covenant ... is not a sin
    • Leaving the Warrior of Sunlight Covenant ... is not a sin
    • Leaving the Darkwraith Covenant ... is not a sin

    That only leaves Gravelords, Path of the Dragon, and Way of White untested, but I highly doubt they'll be an exception.

    Go to Oswald without any sin, and you'll find that you can keep switching covenants all day long and you'll never acquire sin. Attempting to request absolution will tell you that you have not sinned, nor will you obtain sin in the book of the guilty (as expected, the latter is only for indictments...).

    Is there any point to using Oswald to Abandon Covenant? I think it serves no purpose, outside of possible roleplaying purposes (if you wanted to be covenantless again or something).
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    Re: I don't think breaking covenant counts as a sin. Is there any point to using Oswald to 'Abandon Covenant?'

    Post by densetsushun on Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:43 am

    I don't know if leaving a cov without using Oswald is a sin, I've done it a few times without repercussions, but I do know certain actions break the cov and is sinful, like killing the Fair Lady, killing Forest Cov, killing Gwynevere or Gwyndolin, etc. Sometimes I use Oswald anyway while I'm passing through the Parish.

    For an accurate test, try abandoning a covenant without going through Oswald, waiting an appropriate amount of time, then checking your sin with Oswald.


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    Re: I don't think breaking covenant counts as a sin. Is there any point to using Oswald to 'Abandon Covenant?'

    Post by retro on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:00 am

    densetsushun wrote:I don't know if leaving a cov without using Oswald is a sin, I've done it a few times without repercussions, but I do know certain actions break the cov and is sinful, like killing the Fair Lady, killing Forest Cov, killing Gwynevere or Gwyndolin, etc. Sometimes I use Oswald anyway while I'm passing through the Parish.
    I believe all of these already count as sin whether or not you belong to the relevant covenant, which is what makes me think the act of breaking the covenant itself isn't the cause of sin. It's more just like a coincidence that you're pissing off your covenant at the same time. Although I haven't tested attacking Forest Hunter NPCs yet...

    densetsushun wrote:For an accurate test, try abandoning a covenant without going through Oswald, waiting an appropriate amount of time, then checking your sin with Oswald.
    This is what I've been doing, but I'll try again with allowing more time. I know the book of the guilty (which shouldn't be relevant) can take a while to update, but had the impression that other sin was immediate. Still, I tried letting the game wait a while, as well as quitting/ reloading, and have not yet had the option to absolve sin after abandoning 6/9 covenants without Oswald so far.

    But I'll try again and wait longer just to be certain.
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    Re: I don't think breaking covenant counts as a sin. Is there any point to using Oswald to 'Abandon Covenant?'

    Post by Mr. Tart on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:46 am

    I did once accidently hurt a forest hunter while being part of the Forest Hunters. I didn't kill the forest hunter, however i still obtained the sin and had to absolve it. As far as i know, breaking the covenant without actually committing a sin itself, is still enough to be considered a sin, or atleast from my experience it is.


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    Re: I don't think breaking covenant counts as a sin. Is there any point to using Oswald to 'Abandon Covenant?'

    Post by Jodecho on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:02 am

    when you leaving a coven by sining (specific to that coven) or by simply switching to another coven without properly leaving you have to cleanse your sin before you can rejoin the original coven. the only thing you will nottice is the requirements for gaining coven levels are increased. if you leave a coven through oswald and you rejoin the same coven, you still start from scratch but the leveling requirements will be as they were the first time

    edit: for example, getting to lvl 2 in the chaos coven so you can use the shortcut cost 30 humanity. if you improperly leave the coven (any way besides oswald) and cleanse your sin and rejoin the coven it takes 45 humanities to reach lvl 2
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    Re: I don't think breaking covenant counts as a sin. Is there any point to using Oswald to 'Abandon Covenant?'

    Post by retro on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:05 am

    Jodecho wrote:when you leaving a coven ... by simply switching to another coven without properly leaving you have to cleanse your sin before you can rejoin the original coven...
    This is not true. You can always rejoin the original covenant, no exceptions. Cleansing sin is never required. It is only required if you angered a relevant NPC that allows you to join the covenant in the first place. But leaving one covenant for another never angers anyone, nor does it appear to cause sin.
    Mr. Tart wrote:I did once accidently hurt a forest hunter while being part of the Forest Hunters. I didn't kill the forest hunter, however i still obtained the sin and had to absolve it. As far as i know, breaking the covenant without actually committing a sin itself, is still enough to be considered a sin, or atleast from my experience it is.
    I think that only counted as a sin because it angered Alvina, and angering an NPC requires absolution to reset it. So we can still say that angering NPCs is the sin (usually through attacking or killing NPCs, but with the one exception of attacking Forest Hunters to anger Alvina). Abandoning the covenant itself isn't a sin, because you can leave The Forest Hunters for another covenant without sinning.

    You can also tell, concretely, if you've sinned or not by checking with Oswald to Request Absolution. If you can pay for it, you've sinned. Otherwise, it will tell you "You have not sinned".


    Last edited by retro on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added more)
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    Re: I don't think breaking covenant counts as a sin. Is there any point to using Oswald to 'Abandon Covenant?'

    Post by Mr. Tart on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:18 am

    retro wrote:
    Jodecho wrote:when you leaving a coven ... by simply switching to another coven without properly leaving you have to cleanse your sin before you can rejoin the original coven...
    This is not true. You can always rejoin the original covenant, no exceptions. Cleansing sin is never required. It is only required if you angered a relevant NPC that allows you to join the covenant in the first place. But leaving one covenant for another never angers anyone, nor does it appear to cause sin.

    I can even confirm this with the latest co-op playthrough i've been doing, i've been moving on from covenant to covenant without ever having gained any sin that would require absolution.


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    Re: I don't think breaking covenant counts as a sin. Is there any point to using Oswald to 'Abandon Covenant?'

    Post by Nybbles on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:35 am

    it's true, moving from one covenant to another without using Oswald is not counted as a sin, well it doesn't require absolution anyway.

    if you anger the head of the covenant, by sining or breaking the rules, you have to use Oswald to reset the NPCs attitude towards you so you can rejoin. but it is pretty hard to break the rules of a covenant without also earning a point of sin as a consequence, like attacking Shiva.

    whenever you leave a covenant, through Oswald or not, the number of gifts you have given to the covenant are cut in half. if you have given 30 humanity to the Chaos Cov. and then leave, the next time you join it will only count 15 humanity. if you give 80 scales to the Path of the Dragon and then leave, the next time you join it will only count 40 scales, and so on.

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