Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

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    Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:50 pm

    The reason I'm creating this thread is to discuss the grass consumption that's got the Dark Souls PvP world by storm, because it seems to me that everyone is doing it because everyone is doing it, and not thinking about what they're actually doing. ... No I didn't eat a grass before writing that sentence.

    Stamina, as you may or may not have realized, is a--I can't stress this word enough--crucial gameplay mechanic of the Souls series. It's a pillar of the formula for a Souls game. The series has a reputation for being hard, and whether or not you think it is, I wonder if you've asked yourself where the difficulty comes from? What I hear most is "enemies deal similar damage to you as you deal to them" or "you get punished for your mistakes", but that's both vague and not entirely true, or partially the answer. What I always saw as the real source of the difficulty in Demon's Souls (and was transferred to Dark Souls), and that is different from other games, boils down to two things: the Stamina Bar, and the auto-saving. Auto-saving simply because: you make a mistake, you can't undo it! Which leaves the Stamina Bar.

    Look at any number of games of remote or close resemblance to the Souls games, and the Stamina Bar is probably what sets them apart. I don't think I need to elaborate on the kinds of situations it can get you in, but basically stamina-management is an intrinsic part of a Souls game. Which is why I am so extremely bewildered as to why From gave you so many stacking ways to increase your stamina regeneration rate in Dark Souls. They basically took one of their core-most game mechanics, and allowed you to nerf it to hell yourself, at will, without glitching. Mask of the Child, Cloranthy Ring, Grass Crest Shield, Green Blossoms... instant full stamina bar. Now if you want to use it in PvE, it's at your disposition, and there's places where even I would recommend it. But when it comes to PvP, I'm surprised people accept it so naturally when they complain about so many other things (most of which I consider completely fair--*cough*dark magic*cough*!). I can only ask myself whether people have actually stopped to think about the fact.

    The first time I realized how meta-game-breaking this was to PvP was when I'd first started getting into dueling in the Burg (as opposed to perennially getting ganked in the Kiln silly). I'd gauge my opponent's stamina to judge when a good window for punishment would come, but it didn't take more than one fight for me to realize that the window I was looking for could so easily be obliterated by my opponent, because he was using stamina regeneration-enhancing consumables and gear. So one of the aspects that would have made PvP that much more interesting, stamina-management, is largely ignored by a large portion of the PvP-playerbase. Not too long ago I watched a video of a youtuber, known for being better than most at PvP, who consumes grasses so often he'll stop mid-fight to eat another, where he'd run out of his item of addiction. A few times during the short video--during a single fight, actually--he complained that he was having a really hard time managing his stamina today; didn't know why. It seemed that he was completely ignorant of the fact that it was because he wasn't using green blossoms, for once. So how many people consume green blossoms and have no idea what it's like to duel without it?

    This is the reason I never started grassing. I've tried it a few times, but every time I felt silly and stopped quickly--all-in-all I've probably consumed 5 in as many hundred hours of PvP.

    So, what are your thoughts on grassing? Yes, the item is part of the game, but please also consider the effect it has on the game itself. And please keep the discussion civil! I absolutely did not create this thread to point the finger at anyone or make anyone feel bad or judged--I do not judge you for using green blossoms. I just want to know your thoughts on the matter of stamina-management, regeneration, and stacked regeneration-enhancement.


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by RANT on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:15 pm

    i never grass when i pve, nothing really, no grass shield or mask. i do grass for pvp since str weapons take drain my stamina so much, it's weird i used to never grass when the game first came out but lately i have been grassing more since like you said it just makes managing your stamina so damn easy. i really dont remember when i first sstarted using it, i dont even use the grass shield since its too heavy and the mask is also too heavy too(i use the sack cause it's so ight and looks awesome) but grass is just so easy to get and use that it's kinda no brainer but i do find that it doesnt help THAT much tbh


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:21 pm

    I use it all the time. It's most useful on low End builds, and it lets me use better shields other than the GCS. It also saves me a ring slot and an horrible mask.


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by Seignar on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:22 pm

    I never eat my grass. For the simple reason that I consider it just as bad as healing, because it is the same concept. On another topic, I never use any items at all because that devalues other builds. For such example, why use Gravelord sword when you can just Dung Pie? Why not just use Murakumo?

    I think I know the youtuber you speak of, and admittedly, said youtuber does have a tendency of eating way too much grass before and during battles. I'm surprised that some hate healing as part of honor, but have no complaints of grass, especially when grass makes a difference in between light and heavy builds.

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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by GrinTwist on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:24 pm

    I've never done it. I don't like the idea of having to buy 99 of an item and use it every match and then restock, that's just annoying.

    I've used the grass crest shield every once and a while when it comes to invading or the Four Kings but other than that I've never felt the need to boost my stamina regeneration.


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:30 pm

    BTW most people don't know this. Stamina regen difference is higher in heavy armor builds than light armor builds. These means heavy armor builds get a higher boost from stamina regen, while light armor builds gets a small boost. So for light armor, high End builds stamina regen isn't needed.


    Edit: I got that info from a video by ENB.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipr7sKmVG4s&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by The Letter X on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:02 pm

    I grass when I'm facing someone who I know is a good player and they grass first. I grass when ganked. I grass when facing a hacker. I used to do it all the time, but I don't even notice a difference between doing it and not doing it. I just lay off on the attacking when my stamina is low.

    I do see your point and completely agree with it. It feels much more realistic and true to the game when PvPing with no grass.


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:16 pm

    My main character has used the cloranthy ring on occasion. Tried using grass but by the time I tried I was so used to watching my bar I didn't see a major advantage (for me and my fighting style).

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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:21 pm

    @Rant and Wyrm

    There's no denying the usefulness of grassing, but do you have any thoughts on the implications of using it, or stamina regen enhancements?

    @Seignar

    I was trying to keep my OP subjective, but I share your opinion. (Well, I think I tried...) To me, people shouldn't grass in proper duels.

    @Grin

    Do you feel at an unfair disadvantage if you're not increasing your stamina regen but your opponent is?

    Myself, I made a conscious decision not to use them, so it would be unreasonable to expect or demand the same of others. Still, I have to admit, sometimes when I can't roll to dodge a hit because I'm out of stamina, and my opponent is stacking stam regen, it does sting* me a bit!

    @X

    It's very true that not all PvP is the same--dueling isn't the same as random invasions, which aren't the same as getting ganked! But personally, if I used a grass when getting ganked and I got killed, I'd feel a little embarrassed (not saying you should! just saying I, in my warped mind, would). I'd see it as "ok, grassing now, time to try hard!" and if I got killed after that, it'd be embarrassing.

    @Skare (damnit I have to stop editing this post and post it already, it's getting ridiculous!)

    Cloranthy ring though, I have to concede, does cost a ring slot. It's the most potent form of stamina regen enhancer (I think--right?), but then there's a lot of things you can do with a ring slot. If you decide to use it for stamina, I think that's completely fair.


    *damnit, "pee ve" is a word of my lexicon--it gets censored because of some youtuber?! Disclaimer: in this context I am not going around the forum's censor, which is against the rules, but am trying to use the actual word--not breaking the rule!


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by The Letter X on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:30 pm

    BLA1NE wrote:

    @X

    It's very true that not all PvP is the same--dueling isn't the same as random invasions, which aren't the same as getting ganked! But personally, if I used a grass when getting ganked and I got killed, I'd feel a little embarrassed (not saying you should! just saying I, in my warped mind, would). I'd see it as "ok, grassing now, time to try hard!" and if I got killed after that, it'd be embarrassing.

    That's how I feel with backstabbing.
    I don't backstab in duels or invasions, only when ganked, fighting a hacker, or someone else who backstabs. When I backstab someone and still don't win, even in a gank, I feel embarrassed as well. We all have warped minds one way or another. lol!


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:33 pm

    Good point. The ring mainly comes out for bosses. About the only time I get aggressive. Any stamina regen definitely takes a lot of risk away from aggressive fighting styles. I'm so defensive minded though I won't drain my stamina bar unless I'm either pretty sure it ends the fight or I know my opponent has insufficient stamina to punish me for it. I also tend to use normal walking to evade more often than most pvp'ers (not me bragging, just one of my things, I'm not an elite duelist).

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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:46 pm

    IMO the ring and mask are useless because grass gets enough stamina regen (at least for me). However they're useful if you're trying to make a maximum stamina regen build, which of course would be very fun. The implications of eating grass??? Not being able to cast a self buff (GMB, Chameleon, etc.). Best way to get used to the slow stamina regen is by using these kinds of buffs.


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:58 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:IMO the ring and mask are useless because grass gets enough stamina regen (at least for me). However they're useful if you're trying to make a maximum stamina regen build, which of course would be very fun. The implications of eating grass??? Not being able to cast a self buff (GMB, Chameleon, etc.). Best way to get used to the slow stamina regen is by using these kinds of buffs.

    I like that point. It does have some drawbacks. I always grass. But then again, I rarely use PW, GMB, etc. I like it because i can use it with Strong Magic Shield.
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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:16 pm

    Wyrm, that's not what I meant. I made a whole point of how important stamina-management is to Souls games! And stacking stamina regeneration completely eliminates the need to watch your stamina, to the point where it's not really even the same game anymore. Souls without stamina management is pretty much just another adventure RPG game. As for PvP, it's a whole layer of depth that gets removed from the combat. Those are the implications I'm trying to talk about.


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by retro on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:44 pm

    I never grass, even if it puts me at a disadvantage. I have nothing against it, it's just a buff I don't want to feel like I need to use. Don't want to think about it, or grow attached to it. happy


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:47 pm

    Afraid you might like it? silly


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by wolfboy on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:51 pm

    I use grass all the time on some builds and never on others- all of my builds use the grass crest shield though.... I also use a very aggressive play style so stamina is extremely important to me... I've always seen it as completely reasonable because it is a consumable item- anyone can and should get it! Why not use grass? Yes- I understand that stamina management is an important skill that players are supposed to develop- but I fail to see how grass really makes that much of a difference.... there are so many other just as important skills one needs to be a successful player... I choose to buff my stamina re-gen because that is the buff that is most useful to my build...
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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by SpecialNewb on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:02 am

    I use the ring with Kalameet and Manus or if I can't think of a better ring to put in the slot in a given situation (ex: Quelaag). I always grass at the start of PvP but I don't notice much if the effect wears off or bother to replace it unless there's a lull in the fight.
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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:05 am

    I'm just really terrified that if I become a grass eater, Roland will think less of me...

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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:14 am

    I knew something was wrong lol. Pretty much what you say is true. When I began olaying PvP at DeS I felt so crippled by the slow stamina regen. In the end the battle gets longer and you get punished more often than DkS if you don't manage your stamina bar.


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:35 am

    Skare, I see what you did there. winking

    Wolf, I doubt you're more aggressive than I am. I don't remember if we fought last weekend, but it'd be hard to be a more aggressive PvPer than me. Only time I'm not on the offensive, is when my stamina is regenerating! (Even then, if my opponent is close enough, I cast Black Flame with an offhanded pyro flame while my stamina is regenerating so I can constantly be on the offensive, even when I have no stamina--offhanded flame so not even weapon swapping will interrupt my onslaught!)

    @Wyrm

    Yes, that's what I was getting at! I just feel like something is missing from PvP, and from Souls games, when you don't feel slightly oppressed by your stamina bar. silly


    Last edited by BLA1NE on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:47 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added parenthetical anecdote)


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by The Letter X on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:42 am

    BLA1NE wrote:Wolf, I doubt you're more aggressive than I am. I don't remember if we fought last weekend, but it'd be hard to be a more aggressive PvPer than me. Only time I'm not on the offensive, is when my stamina is regenerating!

    You don't want to see me with the Chaos Blade + grass. It makes me feel ashamed.


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:48 am

    There's no shame in being aggressive, unless you get parried. silly


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by The Letter X on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:52 am

    I feel like I shame my opponent's family at times when I go full on balls to the walls. Especially if they did not see the backstep redirection, kicks, and whatnot coming. sad

    Then again I sometìmes feel as if I'm lucky I came out alive. Shrug


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    Re: Let's Talk Grass--and Stam Regen

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:00 am

    I rarely eat grass. The main problem is remembering. I have enough on my plate as it is. The only time I remember to grass is if my opponent does.


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