I'm a little worried

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    ak1287
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by ak1287 on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:22 am

    Animaaal wrote:
    ak1287 wrote:Sort of. I'm apathetic to the whole thing. I do think it's more reasonable to believe that they'd be a bit more descriptive in the introduction rather than make the first portion of the game easier. I could even see it being somethign other than the signs; a dedicated NPC who provides training.

    As am I. I dont even care if there's a difficulty setting. Any of the following are cool with me:

    a) Breeze mode for casuals who are getting absolutely r**** by the experience. Can you imagine?...Dark Souls 2, first time playing? lol.

    b) The ability to complete the game in half the time. All the while no sacrifices are made to gains such as: boss souls, weapons and basic treasures. Only certain "special" non-game breaking treasures would be allowed on higher difficulty settings. It makes up for the loss of the dupe glitch and the bottomless box glitch. So just as long as you do not gain as many souls as in other play modes, even new game pluses.

    c) Allowing a newer player to gain, almost, as much equippment as possible to be on a level playing field with myself and others.

    Just as long as this:

    It does not effect pvp environments. I want no enemy defenses, damages, and aggros affected in any way. I'm adding difficulty to their game. Thats enough for me. So long as the enemies around aren't getting killed with +0 hilts I don't care.

    I'd also love to see a sparring partner to test stuff on. I know its not necessary, but I'm lazy about some things.

    Nothing to add, really. Except that picture is goddamn brilliant.

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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by ak1287 on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:23 am

    DE5PA1R wrote:I don't think I could comprehend a Souls tutorial easier than those in DeS and DkS. I didn't even die in the DeS tutorial my first time playing the game (of course I did get killed by Vanguard, but that doesn't count). And I was seriously bad.

    Also, making the story more straightforward makes the game easier by definition. Its effect on gameplay is irrelevant.

    I really don't think we're using the same definition of straightforward.... Or really what would constitute making a game easier.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by DE5PA1R on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:12 pm

    ak1287 wrote:
    DE5PA1R wrote:I don't think I could comprehend a Souls tutorial easier than those in DeS and DkS. I didn't even die in the DeS tutorial my first time playing the game (of course I did get killed by Vanguard, but that doesn't count). And I was seriously bad.

    Also, making the story more straightforward makes the game easier by definition. Its effect on gameplay is irrelevant.

    I really don't think we're using the same definition of straightforward.... Or really what would constitute making a game easier.

    Part of the difficulty of the Souls games was puzzling through their convoluted storylines.

    All else being equal, a game with an easy-to-understand story is easier than one with a difficult-to-understand story.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:52 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:
    ak1287 wrote:
    DE5PA1R wrote:I don't think I could comprehend a Souls tutorial easier than those in DeS and DkS. I didn't even die in the DeS tutorial my first time playing the game (of course I did get killed by Vanguard, but that doesn't count). And I was seriously bad.

    Also, making the story more straightforward makes the game easier by definition. Its effect on gameplay is irrelevant.

    I really don't think we're using the same definition of straightforward.... Or really what would constitute making a game easier.

    Part of the difficulty of the Souls games was puzzling through their convoluted storylines.

    All else being equal, a game with an easy-to-understand story is easier than one with a difficult-to-understand story.

    I think you're making a point, but you're messing up 'instruction' and 'story'.

    The reason dark was hard to navigate is you get told where to go, but only general destinations, not how to find it. That's not story though, that's instruction.

    The story of dark souls, and demons actually are both very simple. In dark souls the story is your journeying as the chosen undead and everything progresses as you'd expect. It's hardly a convoluted tale, or even a very good one in my opinion. It's nothing like the confusing storylines in films like the departed, or fight club.

    What you're outlining is simpler, more straight forward instructions will make the game easier, a more straightforward, well told story won't do that.


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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by DE5PA1R on Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:39 pm

    I'm not messing up anything. I haven't said anything about instruction. I'm talking about the story. Because the story is convoluted.

    What happened to Oolacile? Why did Seath visit it and capture the Pendant? When did Seath go crazy? What happened to the Pygmy? Who or what broke the tree at Ashe Lake? How did that skull get there? Why is there still an everlasting dragon? Why isn't he hostile? Why can't he move, and why is he mutated? What caused the Undead outbreak? Which primordial serpent is telling the truth? Are they in on it together?

    These are all story-related questions. We can provide answers or theories with varying degrees of accuracy or confidence only after doing buttloads of difficult research. Hardly simple.

    Also, Fight Club was not confusing.


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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:23 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:I'm not messing up anything. I haven't said anything about instruction. I'm talking about the story. Because the story is convoluted.

    What happened to Oolacile? Why did Seath visit it and capture the Pendant? When did Seath go crazy? What happened to the Pygmy? Who or what broke the tree at Ashe Lake? How did that skull get there? Why is there still an everlasting dragon? Why isn't he hostile? Why can't he move, and why is he mutated? What caused the Undead outbreak? Which primordial serpent is telling the truth? Are they in on it together?

    These are all story-related questions. We can provide answers or theories with varying degrees of accuracy or confidence only after doing buttloads of difficult research. Hardly simple.

    Also, Fight Club was not confusing.

    Wow, some of those are really good questions. The only thing I'm having trouble with is why making the story more straightforward makes the game easier.

    It would seem thats why Serious would draw the conclusion of "instruction" vs "story". I certainly do. If you're saying instruction through the telling of storyline cuts down on trial and error questing, then I can get on board with that logic.

    However, I hope it doesnt happen. I've always loved how the story has been non-existent in the soul series as compared to other rpgs. It's only when you slowly peel back the layers that you'll start to find bits and pieces of storyline that is relevant. Talking to that NPC 5 times instead of 4, reading a weapon description, hearing the last line of the merchant you killed before they disappear, etc.

    I also love how some of the story is up for anyones' interpretation. Seems like some of the most interesting parts of the lore, are the parts we speculate on.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:21 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:I'm not messing up anything. I haven't said anything about instruction. I'm talking about the story. Because the story is convoluted.

    What happened to Oolacile? Why did Seath visit it and capture the Pendant? When did Seath go crazy? What happened to the Pygmy? Who or what broke the tree at Ashe Lake? How did that skull get there? Why is there still an everlasting dragon? Why isn't he hostile? Why can't he move, and why is he mutated? What caused the Undead outbreak? Which primordial serpent is telling the truth? Are they in on it together?

    These are all story-related questions. We can provide answers or theories with varying degrees of accuracy or confidence only after doing buttloads of difficult research. Hardly simple.

    Also, Fight Club was not confusing.

    Now you're just confusing even more things up. Most of what you asked, about oolacile, about the pygmy etc are LORE related, the wider flushing out of the world. The STORY is only the travels of your character, the chosen undead and your interactions with the NPCs and world. To that effect, I beg to differ, the story is so simple it's almost pathetic.

    Like I've said before, I like the wider lore how it is, but a more direct approach to the main story would be excellent, especially it meant more attention was given to making it better/more interesting.

    I'd argue you could make story delivery more straightforward.. more direct without making the game easier. If they keep the instruction and guidance you get to a minimum, but develop a wider variety of ways to deliver the story, it wouldn't make the game any easier.

    I honestly don't know how to explain this to you any further, as your views seem to root entirely in an idea that isn't really true; that a change to the story will change the difficulty, when they are two completely distinct things.


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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by DE5PA1R on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:11 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:I honestly don't know how to explain this to you any further, as your views seem to root entirely in an idea that isn't really true; that a change to the story will change the difficulty, when they are two completely distinct things.

    You're missing one of the primary elements that makes the Souls games so great: they're consistent. The gameplay is hard. The story is hard to understand. The mechanics, like poise or equipment burden, are hard to figure out. Everything is hard. This was only made possible by an approach completely opposite to your thinking; making a game is like creating and then assembling a puzzle. If one piece is lost or out of whack, it's just junk.

    More to the point, you're thinking that game and gameplay are the same. They're not.

    A game consists of everything on the disc and associated artwork, cover art, instruction manual, marketing materials, etc. It includes combat mechanics, control scheme, color palette, lighting, art direction, graphics, storyline, story (which is different from storyline), music, enemies, pacing, architecture, NPCs, etc.

    The gameplay is a narrow subset of things within the game. Combat mechanics, control scheme, enemies - those sorts of things.

    Making the story more straightforward or accessible would make the game easier but would not effect the gameplay.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by TheBigLebowski on Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:56 am

    Hmm, interesting OP. The same happened to Dead Space (on a different level).
    The devs of that game got a lot of mail regarding the game to be too scary and they changed DS into a general action shooter. They even admitted it after the release of DS2.

    DS could've been a great new survival horror game series, but no...because of many cry babies it turned into a generic 3rd person shooter.

    The thrill about Demon Souls was the fact that my hands became more sweaty after each moment I was closer to getting open that shortcut or defeating that hard boss. It is part of the game!

    I really do hope they keep it that way.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Frank_White on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:37 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:I honestly don't know how to explain this to you any further, as your views seem to root entirely in an idea that isn't really true; that a change to the story will change the difficulty, when they are two completely distinct things.

    You're missing one of the primary elements that makes the Souls games so great: they're consistent. The gameplay is hard. The story is hard to understand. The mechanics, like poise or equipment burden, are hard to figure out. Everything is hard. This was only made possible by an approach completely opposite to your thinking; making a game is like creating and then assembling a puzzle. If one piece is lost or out of whack, it's just junk.

    More to the point, you're thinking that game and gameplay are the same. They're not.

    A game consists of everything on the disc and associated artwork, cover art, instruction manual, marketing materials, etc. It includes combat mechanics, control scheme, color palette, lighting, art direction, graphics, storyline, story (which is different from storyline), music, enemies, pacing, architecture, NPCs, etc.

    The gameplay is a narrow subset of things within the game. Combat mechanics, control scheme, enemies - those sorts of things.

    Making the story more straightforward or accessible would make the game easier but would not effect the gameplay.

    The story is not hard to understand, Dark Souls basically has little to no story.
    The story is: You are undead. Go ring this bell, go ring that bell, get Lordvessel and kill Gwyn.
    All the rest is LORE. Lore and story are not the same thing.
    They have said the story will be deeper and more straightforward in its telling in DkS II, this is a good thing. They didn't say the lore would be like that, it's likely to stay very cryptic.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by DE5PA1R on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:42 pm



    The story is not hard to understand, Dark Souls basically has little to no story.
    The story is: You are undead. Go ring this bell, go ring that bell, get Lordvessel and kill Gwyn.
    All the rest is LORE. Lore and story are not the same thing.
    They have said the story will be deeper and more straightforward in its telling in DkS II, this is a good thing. They didn't say the lore would be like that, it's likely to stay very cryptic.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/story

    lore=story.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Frank_White on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:44 pm

    No, lore is not the same as story. Even the dictionary you just linked proves you wrong. Get a grip man.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by DE5PA1R on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:46 pm

    1. An account or recital of an event or a series of events, either true or fictitious, as:
    a. An account or report regarding the facts of an event or group of events: The witness changed her story under questioning.
    b. An anecdote: came back from the trip with some good stories.
    c. A lie: told us a story about the dog eating the cookies.
    2.
    a. A usually fictional prose or verse narrative intended to interest or amuse the hearer or reader; a tale.
    b. A short story.
    3. The plot of a narrative or dramatic work.
    4. A news article or broadcast.
    5. Something viewed as or providing material for a literary or journalistic treatment: "He was colorful, he was charismatic, he was controversial, he was a good story" (Terry Ann Knopf).
    6. The background information regarding something: What's the story on these unpaid bills?
    7. Romantic legend or tradition: a hero known to us in story.
    tr.v. sto·ried, sto·ry·ing, sto·ries
    1. To decorate with scenes representing historical or legendary events.
    2. Archaic To tell as a story.

    You're thinking storyLINE or plot.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Frank_White on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:06 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:1. An account or recital of an event or a series of events, either true or fictitious, as:
    a. An account or report regarding the facts of an event or group of events: The witness changed her story under questioning.
    b. An anecdote: came back from the trip with some good stories.
    c. A lie: told us a story about the dog eating the cookies.
    2.
    a. A usually fictional prose or verse narrative intended to interest or amuse the hearer or reader; a tale.
    b. A short story.
    3. The plot of a narrative or dramatic work.
    4. A news article or broadcast.
    5. Something viewed as or providing material for a literary or journalistic treatment: "He was colorful, he was charismatic, he was controversial, he was a good story" (Terry Ann Knopf).
    6. The background information regarding something: What's the story on these unpaid bills?
    7. Romantic legend or tradition: a hero known to us in story.
    tr.v. sto·ried, sto·ry·ing, sto·ries
    1. To decorate with scenes representing historical or legendary events.
    2. Archaic To tell as a story.

    You're thinking storyLINE or plot.

    Precisely that is what I AND Shibuya mean by story, the storyline/plot of the game.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by DE5PA1R on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:15 pm

    You're not making any sense. Making the story (any aspect of it; lore, plot, etc) will make the game easier by definition. Do you want to add something to the conversation?


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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:18 pm

    lore and story are synonomous
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Frank_White on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:39 pm

    Lore and plot are not synonymous. I can tell you the difference.

    Plot/storyline = Story that revolves around your character (what you yourself do in the world and why). This is the aspect that will be more straightforward in DkS II, which is great. Basically it means NPC's will just talk more about the plot, as in what kind of character the final boss is etc., and hopefully they will not give instructions as to where we are supposed to go. Instructions =/= More straightforward plot

    Lore = Things in the "background" related to the story. Stuff like NPCs telling you about other kingdoms or famous heroes for example. Not directly related to the main plot of the game and your character, but related to the universe of the game. They have not mentioned that lore would be in any way simplified, so there is no reason to believe so.

    Personally I hope the plot does become deeper (because it's pretty bad so far) but lore stays very cryptic, so that you have to search for it yourself.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by DE5PA1R on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:49 pm

    Frank_White wrote:Lore and plot are not synonymous. I can tell you the difference.

    WE KNOW THAT. NOBODY SAID OTHERWISE.

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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:50 pm

    Animaaal wrote:lore and story are synonomous

    Frank_White wrote:...Lore and plot are not synonymous. I can tell you the difference...


    Read and respond accordingly.

    Lore and story are synonomous. They are not exact, but they can be used interchangeably....much like troll and griefer.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Frank_White on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:54 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:
    Frank_White wrote:Lore and plot are not synonymous. I can tell you the difference.

    WE KNOW THAT. NOBODY SAID OTHERWISE.

    Uhm yes, Animaaal just said they are synonymous. Now he said it again. What's the matter with you, take a chill pill man. Your blood pressure OK?
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by DE5PA1R on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:56 pm

    Frank_White wrote:
    DE5PA1R wrote:
    Frank_White wrote:Lore and plot are not synonymous. I can tell you the difference.

    WE KNOW THAT. NOBODY SAID OTHERWISE.

    Uhm yes, Animaaal just said they are synonymous. Now he said it again. What's the matter with you, take a chill pill man. Your blood pressure OK?

    No, he said story and lore are synonymous. Read before posting.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Frank_White on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:01 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:
    Frank_White wrote:
    DE5PA1R wrote:
    Frank_White wrote:Lore and plot are not synonymous. I can tell you the difference.

    WE KNOW THAT. NOBODY SAID OTHERWISE.

    Uhm yes, Animaaal just said they are synonymous. Now he said it again. What's the matter with you, take a chill pill man. Your blood pressure OK?

    No, he said story and lore are synonymous. Read before posting.

    Oh so that's how it is. Who is it that's trolling after all... You and Animaaal obviously, because I've already many posts ago said I meant storyline with story. Why do you two go on acting as if I'm talking about story in general, when you know that's not what I was talking about?
    Bunch of trolls...
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Seignar on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:04 pm

    Lore:
    Accumulated facts, traditions, or beliefs about a particular subject. See Synonyms at knowledge.
    Story:
    An account or recital of an event or a series of events, either true or fictitious

    What Frank is trying to say:
    I want the story revolving around the Main Character to be more straightforward, as in my opinion it sucks and could be more detailed

    The problem: The game gives you many choices and paths and so it is difficult to make the story "better" without having to compromise certain sections of the game. If anything, the game could improve interaction with the NPC. Demon Souls had a better "story" because it let you create a story by working for Mephistopheles, whereas killing NPC kind of effectively ends that part of your story in DaS


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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:08 pm

    Frank_White wrote:
    DE5PA1R wrote:
    Frank_White wrote:
    DE5PA1R wrote:
    Frank_White wrote:Lore and plot are not synonymous. I can tell you the difference.

    WE KNOW THAT. NOBODY SAID OTHERWISE.

    Uhm yes, Animaaal just said they are synonymous. Now he said it again. What's the matter with you, take a chill pill man. Your blood pressure OK?

    No, he said story and lore are synonymous. Read before posting.

    Oh so that's how it is. Who is it that's trolling after all... You and Animaaal obviously, because I've already many posts ago said I meant storyline with story. Why do you two go on acting as if I'm talking about story in general, when you know that's not what I was talking about?
    Bunch of trolls...

    When you make a mistake or misquote someone, you need to apologize and then correct the mistake.

    I said lore and story are synonomous, and so did DE5A1R.

    Then you intentionally turn it around as if we didnt read what was posted, even though we did and responded accordingly.

    You have a serious problem with atttude. Niether one of us are calling you names, or making accusations. We are merely responding to EXACTLY what was said.

    Example: Myblood pressure lol. U MAD BRO?<---same thing.

    Do you understand what we are saying? If you want to be respected here, you need to leave those comments out.

    If you want to say something like, "I don't believe they are synonomous in this context...". Then that is fine. No one will blame you for having superior knowledge about something.

    But you troll...all the time....its getting old.
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    Re: I'm a little worried

    Post by Frank_White on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:12 pm

    Seignar you are just repeating what I've already told them in a very, very clear manner. I could not have been more detailed in how I am talking about the story of the main character, and not the entirety of the lore (or story if that's what you wish to call it, even though lore is the most common term in this context).

    Also I believe Shibuya has mentioned that interaction with NPCs will be deeper this time around, and you can affect the main plot by your actions with them (for example killing good NPCs will have an affect on the outcome of the plot). Not sure if 100% reliable though because it was not in quotation marks.

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