I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

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    Are you interested in SL 150 FC????

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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by SirPatrick on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:02 pm

    I'm soul level 190 and getting a lot of pvp at the last stage where gwyn is.
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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by gmwdim on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:08 pm

    I thought the whole point of having "builds" was that all builds had strengths and weaknesses. If you wanted a ton of vitality to absorb shots, you'd be forced to give up a few points of something else. SL 120 seemed like a good compromise where characters could be sufficiently strong and well-rounded but still retain a distinct fighting identity.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:15 pm

    By the way here's a MLGS build I made in DeS.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t11921-mlgs-build

    It doesn't even need SL 120. At SL 100 it's pretty much complete. This an example of how the SL cap in the old days wasn't about sacrifices at all. You could even have a BBS build at 18/18/18/18 with max AR, Vit, End and even a buff lol. At SL 150 you could have a decent GSoA build, a quality build with buff, or even a Int/Pyro/Faith build. Versatility still exists. The SL cap transition from DeS to DkS didn't took into consideration the different sweet spots for diminishing returns.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Rifter7 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:24 pm

    equip burden was 50% in des. from decided to change that with dks, how can you compare the two?


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:31 pm

    Rifter7 wrote:equip burden was 50% in des. from decided to change that with dks, how can you compare the two?

    Ughh... that just made things worse, it's pretty much the same reason the DWGR got nerfed(aside from the whole invinciblty frame thing). Most people didn't even bother with heavy armor because it was pretty much useless. Hell, I only used arm and leg armor so I could still fast roll with my meat cleaver.

    We really had no reason to continue using the old sl 120 system.



    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:32 pm

    Exactly, pretty much DWGR made the different diminishing returns breakpoints insignificant, since it was basically the same as DeS with a bit of sacrifice. But the whole thing changed too late. I'm sure the cap would be higher if fast roll was 25% from the very beginning.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Rifter7 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:49 pm

    http://mmdks.com/zno

    thats enough to tank almost everything below a greatsword, and the defenses aren't exactly bad, all things considered.

    you could go dragon body and wolf ring too.
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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:59 pm

    Rifter7 wrote:http://mmdks.com/zno

    thats enough to tank almost everything below a greatsword, and the defenses aren't exactly bad, all things considered.

    you could go dragon body and wolf ring too.

    Yeah but I can't have +1800 HP like the kat build. I'm better off with 0 poise.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:02 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:Exactly, pretty much DWGR made the different diminishing returns breakpoints insignificant, since it was basically the same as DeS with a bit of sacrifice. But the whole thing changed too late. I'm sure the cap would be higher if fast roll was 25% from the very beginning.

    Actually... there wasn't really much sacrifice, at least not by Demon's standards. Most bp's back then had to wear the cling ring anyway because of their lower health. All they did was replace the Cling ring with Dwgr.

    The old max weight for fastroll? 96
    The current? 52.125
    Before Dwgr nerf? 104.25

    Poise sort of makes up for it, but that has it's own problems.

    It seems like the only reason we still use sl 120 is because of tradition. All it really does is force people to min/max.

    Edit: Though I suppose that it does create more "diverse" builds.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:13 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:
    WyrmHero wrote:Exactly, pretty much DWGR made the different diminishing returns breakpoints insignificant, since it was basically the same as DeS with a bit of sacrifice. But the whole thing changed too late. I'm sure the cap would be higher if fast roll was 25% from the very beginning.

    Actually... there wasn't really much sacrifice, at least not by Demon's standards. Most bp's back then had to wear the cling ring anyway because of their lower health. All they did was replace the Cling ring with Dwgr.

    The old max weight for fastroll? 96
    The current? 52.125
    Before Dwgr nerf? 104.25

    Poise sort of makes up for it, but that has it's own problems.

    It seems like the only reason we still use sl 120 is because of tradition. All it really does is force people to min/max.

    Edit: Though I suppose that it does create more "diverse" builds.

    I am of this opinion. Some people have made cases for raising the meta to 150. Most of their attempts have been met with, "The game is balanced at 120".

    Are there balanced builds at 120?...yes. Are there more at 150?...idk, and niether does anyone else. I dont know anywhere or any forum that has a complete list of the comparison. (ie) 50 vialble builds at 120 compared to 45 viable builds at 150 for example.

    I think its ashame because the game goes to 712.

    When Dark Souls came out and people started posting builds at 120, I thought to myself, "Oh god...not again. Way to think outside the box people".

    I'm really starting to disagree with the sl100 trend too. People forget it only started because of the arena, not for the sake of optimization. Most people neglect that fact when making that arguement.

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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by wolfboy on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:21 am

    Animaaal wrote:I think its a shame because the game goes to 712.

    When Dark Souls came out and people started posting builds at 120, I thought to myself, "Oh god...not again. Way to think outside the box people".

    I'm really starting to disagree with the sl100 trend too. People forget it only started because of the arena, not for the sake of optimization. Most people neglect that fact when making that arguement.

    I agree with this... I actually wish everybody played at 712- then the game would be completely balanced... it would be totally up to the skill and creativity of individual players to decide what weapons they are most effective with... although I suppose it would take a pretty long time to take a build to 712...
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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:38 am

    I made an SL 150 version of my mage king. I think he's perfect at SL 120, even though he mid rolls, but I don't have a problem because he's a tank with high poise.

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=491006062593578466

    At SL 150 he looks like this:

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=174111224366170360

    I could either go the HP route, or increase equipload for fast roll, at lower poise (67 with Giant hands). I don't like him fast rolling at lower poise because I love how he can tank spears and tracers at +91 poise. He doesn't get a significant HP boost either (although 2100 HP is nice). It's similar to what happens with the MLGS build of DeS that I created.



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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:54 am

    If we pvped at SL 712 everyone would be ninja flipping in high poise armour again. You'd see a whole new breed of cookie cutter builds. 80 is the best SL imo


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by SirPatrick on Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:11 am

    Here is my build at SL190

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=220107929846788948

    I think it's pretty good for all round. I'm not good at lagstabs, so this seems to be one to kill all the lagstabbers.

    You can put on fully upgraded silver knight armour for body and leg and some light gloves to get below 25% weight and have a good defense and poise.

    I killed some higher level invaders (65,000-95,000 soul take) using Gwyns armour set + sword with this build.


    Last edited by SirPatrick on Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : forgot to include another benefit)
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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:14 am

    Nobody cares about Smough's Hammer. Every single soul level range will see its own collection of optimized, cookie-cutter builds.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by RANT on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:52 am

    Animaaal wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:
    WyrmHero wrote:Exactly, pretty much DWGR made the different diminishing returns breakpoints insignificant, since it was basically the same as DeS with a bit of sacrifice. But the whole thing changed too late. I'm sure the cap would be higher if fast roll was 25% from the very beginning.

    Actually... there wasn't really much sacrifice, at least not by Demon's standards. Most bp's back then had to wear the cling ring anyway because of their lower health. All they did was replace the Cling ring with Dwgr.

    The old max weight for fastroll? 96
    The current? 52.125
    Before Dwgr nerf? 104.25

    Poise sort of makes up for it, but that has it's own problems.

    It seems like the only reason we still use sl 120 is because of tradition. All it really does is force people to min/max.

    Edit: Though I suppose that it does create more "diverse" builds.

    I am of this opinion. Some people have made cases for raising the meta to 150. Most of their attempts have been met with, "The game is balanced at 120".

    Are there balanced builds at 120?...yes. Are there more at 150?...idk, and niether does anyone else. I dont know anywhere or any forum that has a complete list of the comparison. (ie) 50 vialble builds at 120 compared to 45 viable builds at 150 for example.

    I think its ashame because the game goes to 712.

    When Dark Souls came out and people started posting builds at 120, I thought to myself, "Oh god...not again. Way to think outside the box people".

    I'm really starting to disagree with the sl100 trend too. People forget it only started because of the arena, not for the sake of optimization. Most people neglect that fact when making that arguement.

    uhhh no. japanese people have had sl 99 cap since dks came out. there's vids of youtube of them pvp'ing with them. this is my favorite dark souls pvp vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IToNBz_GaMs i have a build like that back then. i even tried to change the sl cap to sl 99 and as you see it didnt work.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by XuitusTheGreat on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:32 pm

    im keeping my 100 builds at 100 you're only gonna lose out on fights by going higher, everyone 100-120 will be out of ur range and thus you'll only hit high level try hards


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:45 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    I'm really starting to disagree with the sl100 trend too. People forget it only started because of the arena, not for the sake of optimization. Most people neglect that fact when making that arguement.
    RantFromRant wrote:
    uhhh no. japanese people have had sl 99 cap since dks came out. there's vids of youtube of them pvp'ing with them. this is my favorite dark souls pvp vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IToNBz_GaMs i have a build like that back then. i even tried to change the sl cap to sl 99 and as you see it didnt work.

    That’s fair to say. But its also kinda fair to say you can find a youtube video of DkS pvp at any soul level, anytime, anywhere, in just about any language. I’m not saying the Japanese didn’t have players capping at 99/100, or that you didn’t have that conversation.

    I remember before the Burg was a hotspot, when people still hated the forest, and the Kiln was still the “it spot”, people were considering an adjustment to the soul level 120 tradition. I also remember plenty of people saying 130 or 140 seemed optimized and that they had seen action at those soul levels.

    Maybe when I said, “it only started because of” I misspoke. I guess I shoulda said its not entirely a coincidence. Nor is it a coincidence people are currently seeing action at 200.

    I don’t think soul level 300 or 400 would be a good range for unique and balanced pvp builds. I am curious however, why soul level 200 hasn’t been tested more. With the introduction and initial hype of the arena, and the quanity of people sportin sl120 builds, I’m surprised more threads weren’t authored proving and disproving the comparisons between the two soul levels.

    Whether it be 50,55 ( lol ), 80, 100, 120, 150, or 200 I believe this to be , for the most part true, and low level builds are not my preference.

    Saturday-Saint wrote:.........Every single soul level range will see its own collection of optimized, cookie-cutter builds..........

    With the adjustments to the DWGR and stunlocks, I think the door is more wide open so to speak concerning this particular discussion.
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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:04 pm

    Stunlocks and DWGR have nothing to do with it. For any given SL range, there will be optimal builds, and if enough people spend time playing in that level range, they will figure out what those builds are.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:25 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Stunlocks and DWGR have nothing to do with it. For any given SL range, there will be optimal builds, and if enough people spend time playing in that level range, they will figure out what those builds are.

    I wouldn't say the DWGR adjustment has nothing to do with it at all. People are definitely seeking a way to compensate for the lack of high poise/fast rolling options available now as oppose to before. Going to a higher soul level or just outright sacrifice would seem to be the mostly likely course of action/s. I'm just saying people have chosen to level up, which could be reflected by people seeing action at sl 200.

    As far as stunlocking, I would also assume people would level up to see more poise in order to compensate for their opponent "hitting back". And/or leveling up to carry a heavier weapon that retained its stunlocking ability, if indeed large weapons were of this persons preference.

    Maybe it hasn't had as much of an influence as I might think, but I believe those 2 game adjustments have had more than a zero affect on this conversation.
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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:40 pm

    I cannot divine an argument from your post, so I'm just going to remind you that any soul level range has optimal builds and that no amount of nerfs or buffs to anything will ever prevent that from being true.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by EeAyEss on Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:14 pm

    Hey reim, I see your point about having everything, but Dex builds at lvl 100:

    http://mmdks.com/100q

    Nearly everything. 53 poise breakpoint. A super-retarded weapon. 1800 hp. fast roll.

    That's at lvl 100. At lvl 120? *sigh*

    Poor str builds. If only your damage was higher.


    SCREW DEX. STR WEAPONS FTW.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by ChizFreak on Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:42 pm

    EeAyEss wrote:Hey reim, I see your point about having everything, but Dex builds at lvl 100:

    http://mmdks.com/100q

    Nearly everything. 53 poise breakpoint. A super-retarded weapon. 1800 hp. fast roll.

    That's at lvl 100. At lvl 120? *sigh*

    Poor str builds. If only your damage was higher.


    SCREW DEX. STR WEAPONS FTW.

    STR builds can be strong, but people want carry big high damaging weapons AND and able to fast roll at the same time. And that's too much for level 100. Go for a medium roll build and you can do it.

    This is a random example:
    http://mmdks.com/1016

    1800 health, 50 STR, 56 Poise, Havel's Great Shield, Large Club 629 Phys damage


    Alternative build:
    http://mmdks.com/1018

    Same weapons, same stats, but different armor, 34 poise, but 396 phys defense, with 1800 health and that defense you're good to go.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by EeAyEss on Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:01 pm

    I understand that. I use med roll all the time. I love it. I'm just responding to reim's point about "having everything."


    But nice builds.


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    Re: I now declare SL 150 the new SL cap

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:52 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:I cannot divine an argument from your post, so I'm just going to remind you that any soul level range has optimal builds and that no amount of nerfs or buffs to anything will ever prevent that from being true.

    Thanks, though I only agree with that to point. Its kinda like saying all things are relative. Its true, but in a very broadstroke kinda way. However you arrrrre right lol.

    I'm merely saying (in a braodstroke) that making adjustments to significant game features, tools, or mechanics should make one consider previous conclusions derived from those mechanics, tools, and features, or at the very least, revisit the conclusions directly affected by said features, tools, and/or mechanics.

    DWGR/stunlocks patch adjustments = a needed reconclusion of most optimal soul level.

    In other words, poise is a huge factor in pvp for some playstyles. The only way to reach certain poise breaks now is to level up, or sacrifice carelessly. So the optimal level is now reduced even further? How did this happen?

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