Definition of 'Griefer'

I don't understand the qualifications for griefing. As i see it, griefing is if a player is using endgame gear against opposition that doesn't have the equipment available to effectively fight back, so isn't possible past anor londo or the tog. However it seems that in some cases, highly effective strategies are dubbed griefing and i'm curious as to why. EX; using full giants, a lightning claymore, wog, and the dwgr against people in the burg is griefing, but how is the same setup in the archives griefing when all of these things are/were available to you as well? THIS ISN'T A DEBATE, its a question. I don't understand the issue so i'm asking for sensible and quantifiable explanations.

if the pvp is taking place in the archives i personally wouldn't consider it griefing. however, those more concerned with "fair play" don't like the idea of someone in full havel's able to move as quickly as a ppl in light armor. it really is a matter of perspective and you will find that those from the DS days (like myself) have different expectations from pvp. but then again, dks is what it is and maybe we should all move on

It's mostly because they are causing grief to new players who don't have enough grasp of the game yet to get access to those things. I know every move and nuance this game is going to throw at me, so I can probably get through at a low level. Someone going through the first couple of times doesn't. Technically, if they aren't using a glitch to do it, it isn't really cheating, but it certainly isn't very sporting.

To me, the definition of griefer is more about their psychological makeup. They know they aren't quite good enough to compete with people in the game if all the gear is balanced fairly, so rather than keep losing, they do what schoolyard bullies do - pick on people weaker than them. It's not their fault...they simply lack the necessary skills for the game, so they do this instead. I like to think of places like the Parish, where they hang out a lot, as one of those special, modified classes for slow kids. Perhaps instead of Griefers, we need to start calling them the Mods.

There is a diference between:

1- Griefer with Giants armor, mask of the mother, dwgr and lightning claymore VS host with full havels, Black knight greataxe and dwgr

2- Griefer with same setup above VS host in black hemmed set with blue tearstone ring, magic estoc+5 and knight shield.

so its also griefing if the host is using a gimp setup in late game areas? that's not the invaders fualt. why should they change from a highly effective setup because the host is under-geared? There is always the chance its the hosts first playthrough and doesn't know better but there's no way to avoid that.

IMO, griefing is mostly about low-level invasions using high-level gear. Other than that, I think everything is fair game.

I usually put it in with the mindset of the person, do they actually want a fun PvP match, do they want to challenge them self? Or do they just want to ruin another person's time? It's all about where they get the enjoyment out of it for PvP with me. Now when it comes to having high level gear in low areas, that I think is just textbook right there. My first mention though was more a personal definition of a griefer.

I would define it as "deliberatley seeking an unfair advantage"

Example-everyone knows the BB glitch, doing that staying below lvl 10 and invading people that are starting out a new toon.

normally i dont mind someone wearing harvels, but when i am at lvl 7 trying to honestly make a new build and get invaded in the Parish by someone with a lightning uchi, not really too much you can do.

the only reason I would not say "mod" is because not everyone that does the mod does it to cause grief, I read a different thread about the BB glitch, aparently alot of folks do it and dont invade people at a low level.

zzCLR2Rzz wrote:I would define it as "deliberatley seeking an unfair advantage"

Define unfair. i could have an unfair advantage naked with a base shortsword based on skill alone. Going solely on gear/spells though, its not unfair past londo or the tog because that gear/those spells are available to you as well. Unless someone rolls the game 4 times for 12 wog or 97 hcsm and uses it against ng+ players, but again thats using 'end game' (for simplicities sake) spells against players who cant be resonably expected to have that advantage, which is textbook griefing.

Carphil wrote:There is a diference between:

1- Griefer with Giants armor, mask of the mother, dwgr and lightning claymore VS host with full havels, Black knight greataxe and dwgr

2- Griefer with same setup above VS host in black hemmed set with blue tearstone ring, magic estoc+5 and knight shield.

I wouldn't consider that person a griefer, just an invader w/ little imagination.

aceluby wrote:

Carphil wrote:There is a diference between:

1- Griefer with Giants armor, mask of the mother, dwgr and lightning claymore VS host with full havels, Black knight greataxe and dwgr

2- Griefer with same setup above VS host in black hemmed set with blue tearstone ring, magic estoc+5 and knight shield.

I wouldn't consider that person a griefer, just an invader w/ little imagination.

I'm not saying thats griefing, I'm saying that: Number 1- the host is a farmer, and number 2- the guy is just trying to beat the level, probably in first playthrough, when he is invaded by someone who has far superior gear than him, considered griefing

Forum Pirate wrote:

zzCLR2Rzz wrote:I would define it as "deliberatley seeking an unfair advantage"

Define unfair. i could have an unfair advantage naked with a base shortsword based on skill alone. Going solely on gear/spells though, its not unfair past londo or the tog because that gear/those spells are available to you as well. Unless someone rolls the game 4 times for 12 wog or 97 hcsm and uses it against ng+ players, but again thats using 'end game' (for simplicities sake) spells against players who cant be resonably expected to have that advantage, which is textbook griefing.

I wouldn't consider this griefing either, stacking those spells while keeping your level below 120 is skill as is using those spells in an effective manner. Lots of spells doesn't mean an automatic win.

I don't think there is anything I'd consider 'griefing' after O&S besides invader farming in Kiln.

Carphil wrote:

aceluby wrote:

Carphil wrote:There is a diference between:

1- Griefer with Giants armor, mask of the mother, dwgr and lightning claymore VS host with full havels, Black knight greataxe and dwgr

2- Griefer with same setup above VS host in black hemmed set with blue tearstone ring, magic estoc+5 and knight shield.

I wouldn't consider that person a griefer, just an invader w/ little imagination.

I'm not saying thats griefing, I'm saying that: Number 1- the host is a farmer, and number 2- the guy is just trying to beat the level, probably in first playthrough, when he is invaded by someone who spam WoG

You called him a griefer... twice, never mentioned what the host was doing, or WoG...

aceluby wrote:

Carphil wrote:

aceluby wrote:

Carphil wrote:There is a diference between:

1- Griefer with Giants armor, mask of the mother, dwgr and lightning claymore VS host with full havels, Black knight greataxe and dwgr

2- Griefer with same setup above VS host in black hemmed set with blue tearstone ring, magic estoc+5 and knight shield.

I wouldn't consider that person a griefer, just an invader w/ little imagination.

I'm not saying thats griefing, I'm saying that: Number 1- the host is a farmer, and number 2- the guy is just trying to beat the level, probably in first playthrough, when he is invaded by someone who spam WoG

You called him a griefer... twice, never mentioned what the host was doing, or WoG...

When you invade someone what do you expect the host is doing? Waiting for you to spawn and kill you, or struggling at the level? With that kind of gear, no one hosting at burg, parish, depths and blightown can win, thats for me is griefing.

I was invaded once at catacombs, right after beating blighttown, the guy shows up naked and spammed 4 WoG. Just that. For me thats also griefing, because he gave me no chance to do anything.

Define unfair. i could have an unfair advantage naked with a base shortsword based on skill alone. Going solely on gear/spells though, its not unfair past londo or the tog because that gear/those spells are available to you as well. Unless someone rolls the game 4 times for 12 wog or 97 hcsm and uses it against ng+ players, but again thats using 'end game' (for simplicities sake) spells against players who cant be resonably expected to have that advantage, which is textbook griefing.

i thought i did with the BB glitch scenario in the parsh but probably was not clear enough, i agree, once you hit Anor Lando it is reasonable to say that you have access to all of the equipment, but hanging out at the undead parish under level 10 with endgame gear would, IMHO be deliberatley seeking an unfair advantage.

If you are doing that you would have to know the likley opponents would be a new charechter.

If you have that much skill naked with shortsword then you would not be griefing you would just be better.

Carphil wrote:
When you invade someone what do you expect the host is doing? Waiting for you to spawn and kill you, or struggling at the level? With that kind of gear, no one hosting at burg, parish, depths and blightown can win, thats for me is griefing.

I was invaded once at catacombs, right after beating blighttown, the guy shows up naked and spammed 4 WoG. Just that. For me thats also griefing, because he gave me no chance to do anything.

I expect them to be going through the level and I expect that I will win. I consider that the object of invading, not griefing.

Also, you keep adding info that you didn't put in your original post. You only put what gear each one had and based on that info alone I wouldn't consider it griefing, and I wouldn't even if it's the burg because both the host and invader were using gear not available at that point.

I also wouldn't consider you getting hit by WoG in catacombs 'griefing' any more so then someone hitting you w/ a big sword or CSS 'griefing'.

aceluby wrote:

Carphil wrote:
When you invade someone what do you expect the host is doing? Waiting for you to spawn and kill you, or struggling at the level? With that kind of gear, no one hosting at burg, parish, depths and blightown can win, thats for me is griefing.

I was invaded once at catacombs, right after beating blighttown, the guy shows up naked and spammed 4 WoG. Just that. For me thats also griefing, because he gave me no chance to do anything.

I expect them to be going through the level and I expect that I will win. I consider that the object of invading, not griefing.

Also, you keep adding info that you didn't put in your original post. You only put what gear each one had and based on that info alone I wouldn't consider it griefing, and I wouldn't even if it's the burg because both the host and invader were using gear not available at that point.

I also wouldn't consider you getting hit by WoG in catacombs 'griefing' any more so then someone hitting you w/ a big sword or CSS 'griefing'.

Why are you so obsessed to argue with me? I made my point in the first post, you asked information, I gave you examples, but is never enough?

Then I agree with you, griefers don't exist. People with End game gear invading people with starting gear just want fair duels

Please guys, i'd prefer to keep this civil so i can actually learn something.

How about I rephrase, i have a sl 120 wanderer with like 73 vit 60 end in full giants and MoM with the rofap and hornets ring, a +5 lightning estoc, crest shield, and power within. any parry or bs is instantly fatal with power within on. If i were to fight you in the kiln or forest with this character, would you call me a griefer and why?

No because kiln and forest are high PVP spots, you know you will be invaded there, diferent from other places

Forum Pirate wrote:

zzCLR2Rzz wrote:I would define it as "deliberatley seeking an unfair advantage"

Define unfair.

Using an exploit which is outside the technical design of the game to gain access to weapons and materials typically not available to players in a certain area.

Truth told, there are two kinds of griefers. The first one does things like the BB to achieve the above. This is cheating. However, there are still people who grief within the rules, as they used to do in Demon's Souls even before the duping glitch. If someone wants to go through Anor Londo at level 15 and gain a lightning weapon through hard work, then come back and beat up on people with inferior gear, it's not cheating. Not my idea of competitive fun, but to each his/her own I guess.

I personally think of griefing as two distinct but often overlapping concepts:

1) Picking on newbies in the burg/parish.

2) Using min/max gear and/or camping spawn sites so that your target has little to no chance to defend themselves.

befowler wrote:I personally think of griefing as two distinct but often overlapping concepts:

1) Picking on newbies in the burg/parish.

2) Using min/max gear and/or camping spawn sites so that your target has little to no chance to defend themselves.

Why is min/max gear griefing? it within the rules of the game and very potent.

@carphil, so invaders griefers anywhere outside the pvp spots? that would be a comprehensive and logical explanation if its what you ment.

I am simply assuming that +5 lightning claymores before londo (you get the idea) is griefing and so have no further input on that part of the thread.

I choose to define the following
1)Griefer - a person who utilizes equipment not normally granted for that area of play to access an unsporting advantage over lowbies.
2) Unsporting Advantage - a situation where one player must demonstrate above average skill/luck in order to achieve victory due to equipment/level status of their opponent.
3) Lowbies - players still largely restricted in access to both equipment and resources.
(Luck is an unintentional favorable action that does not originate from design)

So, Griefing, it appears, has much to do with the equipment you are using and where you are using it.

Carphil wrote:

aceluby wrote:

Carphil wrote:
When you invade someone what do you expect the host is doing? Waiting for you to spawn and kill you, or struggling at the level? With that kind of gear, no one hosting at burg, parish, depths and blightown can win, thats for me is griefing.

I was invaded once at catacombs, right after beating blighttown, the guy shows up naked and spammed 4 WoG. Just that. For me thats also griefing, because he gave me no chance to do anything.

I expect them to be going through the level and I expect that I will win. I consider that the object of invading, not griefing.

Also, you keep adding info that you didn't put in your original post. You only put what gear each one had and based on that info alone I wouldn't consider it griefing, and I wouldn't even if it's the burg because both the host and invader were using gear not available at that point.

I also wouldn't consider you getting hit by WoG in catacombs 'griefing' any more so then someone hitting you w/ a big sword or CSS 'griefing'.

Why are you so obsessed to argue with me? I made my point in the first post, you asked information, I gave you examples, but is never enough?

Then I agree with you, griefers don't exist. People with End game gear invading people with starting gear just want fair duels

I'm not obsessed w/ arguing with you, I simply responded to your posts on a public forum. I never asked for more info, I said that I disagree that what gear you wear solely determines whether you are griefing. I agree that invading in end game gear at low levels is griefing. I don't agree that invading in end game gear anywhere else is though, or using certain spells, or if you invade someone else in end game gear in the beginning, that's just karma.

theGentleman wrote:I choose to define the following
1)Griefer - a person who utilizes equipment not normally granted for that area of play to access an unsporting advantage over lowbies.
2) Unsporting Advantage - a situation where one player must demonstrate above average skill/luck in order to achieve victory due to equipment/level status of their opponent.
3) Lowbies - players still largely restricted in access to both equipment and resources.
(Luck is an unintentional favorable action that does not originate from design)

So, Griefing, it appears, has much to do with the equipment you are using and where you are using it.

Praise the sun! thats the kind of explanation i was hoping for. Thats the best answer so far in that its all inclusive, logical and consistent.
Thankyou good sir.