Reason behind Logan's insanity

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    danfts

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    Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by danfts on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:46 pm

    Hey guys, I'm here to discuss the motives behind Logan's insanity.
    After watching ENB's theory behind it, given the fact that both he and Seath went a little nuts, one of the similarities between them is their continuous exposure to crystals.
    Seeing as crystals seem to be somewhat a catalyst in channeling souls (as seen in the Homing Crystal Soulmass or CMW, I believe), this could have created a side effect of some sort. Do you think this can be a good point as to why they went insane?
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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:16 pm

    I've always seen them as two different archetypes of different insanity.

    Seath: The Mad Scientist
    Seath seems a little nuts from the get go. He's the outcast dragon, betrayer of his own kind. However, his insanity is more of the "holds different views than most people" variety. I'll contrast that in a bit with Logan. Seath, to me, is seemingly always cold and calculating. Never out of control. He's the little kid filled with rage his whole life who turns evil. His insanity isn't really what we'd call "nuts" actually, more like inherent evil. He's akin to how Moriarty is insane. He's perfectly rational, coherent and super intelligent.

    Logan: The Hermit
    Logan is in many ways a comparison and a contrast to Seath in the game. Logan is NOT an outcast. Despite clashes with the establishment, Logan is suggested to be popular, almost a folkhero. However, while Seath seems to seek his place in the world, Logan doesn't give a ****. Logan has a similar singularity of purpose as Seath. Both seem to have reached their limits. They've innovated but seem out of new material when we meet them. Seath pushes on with his research with, dare I say, blind devotion. Logan on the other hand has recognized that he may finally have to seek the knowledge of others. So for most of the game there's no insanity (he's just not very social). Logan goes insane from spending too much time reading in the Duke's Archives. It's not clear but the two best theories I can come up with for why he goes insane are:
    1. He found what he was looking for. Having completed his purpose he loses his sense of self and hollows. This is consistent with the theme of hollowing
    2. He finds more than he bargained for. So more similar to characters who have read from the Necronomicon or read the play The King in Yellow, he stumbled across something that warped him. This is consistent with the "introvert" archetype of insanity in which they become lost within themselves.



    I'm not discounting the crystal theory but I don't see evidence of Seath and Logan having the same end result. I know that there's evidence they're both "crazy" but very different types of crazy if you ask me.

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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by densetsushun on Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:20 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:
    1. He found what he was looking for. Having completed his purpose he loses his sense of self and hollows. This is consistent with the theme of hollowing
    2. He finds more than he bargained for. So more similar to characters who have read from the Necronomicon or read the play The King in Yellow, he stumbled across something that warped him. This is consistent with the "introvert" archetype of insanity in which they become lost within themselves.
    I'd have to say 1 doesn't make sense to me because, like Solaire, Logan technically doesn't hollow, he merely goes insane and takes his clothes off.

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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by danfts on Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:28 pm

    Yellow King Jeremiah? I'm sorry, I guess I don't know the story behind this play.
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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:43 pm

    I definitely agree with that part about Seath wanting fame/validation whilst Logan, the introvert, simply seeking knowledge cares not for recognition. So they both become insane but take decidedly different pats.

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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:44 pm

    Densetsushun, forgot about that so good call. Yeah, he just goes nuts. So it would only be similar to hollowing but definitely not consistent with other characters who go hollow.

    Danfts,
    In one of our earlier Jeremiah discussions someone (I forget who but props to you) pointed out the book The King in Yellow by Robert Chambers. The short version is that, in three of the stories, the characters have read a play called "The King in Yellow." The first act seems ordinary but the second act (not many details) messes you up when you read it. There's not much official on the King himself except that his appearance is, problematic, to behold and he's not a very nice guy.

    The King was carried over by other people, including H.P. Lovecraft. I read the Chambers book after this was brought to my attention and even did some digging into how his story has been used by others and it does seem like we might have a match with the Xanthous King.


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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by Chimcha on Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:16 pm

    I love the fact that FROM went through so much trouble to find lore and research from literature of other cultures, ancient to contemporary. Having read some more Lovecraft recently, I love that some of the enemies in the game are "lovecraftian" in design, especially the concept art of the Bed of Chaos.

    But to get back to Logan, he fits a similar theme, like Skarekrow said, to many protagonists from Lovecraft's novellas and short stories, where perhaps they stumbled into knowledge that was too grand for them to process or conceptualize, or revealed a secret too horrible to stay sane.


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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by tinypantha on Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:26 pm

    Thought logan was trying to become a dragon-noid and thus took off his hat... The dev team said that sooo.

    Also the hat is because no knew it was him without it on him hollow.


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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by Geebus the great on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:31 am

    Hello everyone! I'm new to the site and have become very obsessed with dark souls as of late. If I may, can I give a beginner's take on Logan's insanity? I think along skareckrow13's reasoning except for a few things. Upon playing through a sorcery build (I have ever beaten the game properly, I started a new game with sorcery so I can destroy noob invaders XD), I was very curious about Logan. I believe in the whole "bit off more than he can chew" argument.... It was very strange for him to go from being completely coherent to a stuttering mess as soon as I bought everything from him. It seems as though he was only TOO human... Seath's discoveries in crystal sorcery were ultimately too much for him to handle, and he just lost it/ became a nudist lol. Seath is the only eternal dragon in the game to double cross the other dragons and bequeath his magic to humans... But the consequences of such powerful magic are dire indeed. Humans cannot fully comprehend crystal magic, and are seemingly driven to insanity while trying. Even Big Hat Logan, as powerful as he was, could not combat the negative effects of this knowledge. Therefore he was driven insane in short order, and you have to fight him at his weakest moment... in his underpants.
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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by Sir Mandred on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:14 am

    It's very likely to assume that Logan's Insanity has much more to do with the Scales Of Immortality, then it has to do with crystals, spontaneous lunacy or hollowing. Seath was obsessed with finding a way to overcome his mortality and although he found a solution with his crystal research, it's very likely to assume the madness has more to do with the obsession of averting mortality (atleast for Seath), for anything else we can simply assume that Logan goes through a similar progress of obsession. It's likely that the scales of immortality, estus/fire and souls are all somehow linked though. Fire is a remnant of the everlasting dragons powers and considering how the bonfires work they seem to grant some form of preservation for life, no matter how twisted. Thus it isn't impossible to assume that the crystals simply bypass the powers of the flame and create an artificial replica of the fires soul preserving properties.
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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by NPCWhiteMage on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:47 pm

    Its no secret that Seath's goal in life is to replicate the scales of immortality that he had been robbed of in birth. It was one of the reasons that Seath turned on the Dragons: jealousy.

    So, Gwyn grants Seath Dukehood and gives him a great library so that the dragon may continue to find a way to duplicate the scales of immortality.

    I believe all the crystals are Seath's expiriments for those scales, but aren't quiet right, which is why they are associated with the curse.

    Now about Logan going mad.

    His whole goal in Lordran is to seek greater knowledge and wisdom.

    When he first came to Lordran he was with Griggs, who abandoned Logan the first chance he had "For his safety..."

    You first encouter Grande Sombrero Logan in Sen's fortress, where you free him. As a reward, he teaches you spells. After you make it through to Anor Londo, it can be assumed that Logan also made it to Anor Londo and indeed to the Duke's Archives, only to find the way blocked by the Gold Fog, dishearted, Logan returns to Fire Link where he continues to teach you; however, once the Lord Vessel has been placed, Logan sets off again to the archives in seard of knowledge and wisdom.

    You run into Logan once again, and he teaches you crystal spells. Now, these spells weren't available before he made it to the archives, so it can be inferred that he learned about them while in the archive. Now, it can be inferred that Logan encounted Seath while in the Archives, and became cursed, which affected his mind (I feel this is referenced by this Tin Crysstalization Catalyst and use of Crystal spells). The curse affected his mind horrible, and Logan began to identify with Seath, both of them great intellects and masters of scorcery. In order to closer emulate Seath, the dragon that gave Logan the "gift" of the power of crystal spells, Logan takes off his clothes so that he too is scaleless. Having obtained his goal of greater knowledge (while not so much wisdom) Logan hollowfies, and loses his mind, a process that has been slowly happened throughout his time in Lordran.

    This is just my take on the subject.



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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by DE5PA1R on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:24 pm

    Does Logan actually go *crazy* crazy? Maybe, upon gathering such an awesome amount of knowledge, he believes himself to have transcended (or actually transcends).

    Logan wanted to be like Seath. Seath wanted to be a real Dragon. If Logan was successful in becoming like Seath - say, when he gained the knowledge of Crystal spells - then his next step would be to transcend even Seath and become a real Dragon.

    Maybe he was successful here as well.

    Dragons kill humans & Undead. He sees you, he tries to kill you. Simple as that.


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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by KingSeekerCow on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:36 pm



    Add "Dragons" There.
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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:10 am

    Logan actually read a bad yaoi fanfic about Lautrec and Solaire and went hollow at the part where Solaire showed Lautrec "his" sun.
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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:11 am

    But I really think Logan had an intellectual love for Seath, but I'm not quite sure they actually met. He probably just went hollow because he bit more than he could chew.

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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by User1 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:11 am

    Nah, Res, I expected you to know better. Logan visited the Insane OP, and became one of us.
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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:13 am

    No he didn't. If he did he would've put his chest head on tongue

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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by User1 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:15 am

    But, he did go naked. Halfway there, I guess.
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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:17 am

    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/610099

    It isn't youtube but it still deserves a view.

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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by User1 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:18 am

    Doesn't last very long, but yes, it does deserve a view.
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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by Paragon on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:10 am

    HA! Fantastic! ^


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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by Scurrilous Straggler on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:06 pm

    NPCWhiteMage wrote:You run into Logan once again, and he teaches you crystal spells. Now, these spells weren't available before he made it to the archives, so it can be inferred that he learned about them while in the archive. Now, it can be inferred that Logan encounted Seath while in the Archives, and became cursed, which affected his mind (I feel this is referenced by this Tin Crysstalization Catalyst and use of Crystal spells). The curse affected his mind horrible, and Logan began to identify with Seath, both of them great intellects and masters of scorcery. In order to closer emulate Seath, the dragon that gave Logan the "gift" of the power of crystal spells, Logan takes off his clothes so that he too is scaleless. Having obtained his goal of greater knowledge (while not so much wisdom) Logan hollowfies, and loses his mind, a process that has been slowly happened throughout his time in Lordran.

    This is just my take on the subject.


    I wonder if you use only crystal spells, the crystal armours, and the tin crystal catalyst if your character would go insane from crystal exposure as well? It might take multiple playthroughs even. Has anyone tested this? I don't really play a mage so I don't use the spells.... but it seems like everyone else who does goes snooker loopy so... just wondering.


    Last edited by Scurrilous Straggler on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling... of course.)
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    Re: Reason behind Logan's insanity

    Post by Latitoast on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:55 pm

    The Devs said he took his clothes off to be more like a Dragon.

    I assume he learned too much for him to handle in the Duke's.

    Maybe he got fixated on the Scales of Immortality like Seath did and went mad because of it.


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