Primordial Serpent theory

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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Dilaudid281 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:18 am

    Shkar wrote:
    alchemydesign wrote:I know the history, but no, it's not enough, where the first shortcut building is...the dimensions do not match the darkroot garden building at all...the tree people aren't even the same...the dlc enemies are scarecrows...animated wooden constructs...the darkroot enemies are actual trees. The hillsides are different, and whole areas are just gone, like the huge land mass that holds the Oolacile colesseum is gone in darkroot.

    They are NOT the same place...at all. Plus, if they were it would make no sense, it would make the world of Dark Souls about the size of Britain with the different kingdoms mashed up against each other and I can't prescribe to that belief at all.

    The dimensions of the building seemed fine to me, and if they had to alter it slightly to account for changes in the DLC, fine. We have no clue how the Oolacian constructs work. They clearly run on souls; it's possible they are alive and adapted. Hillsides can be considered the result of the standard 1000 years of erosion, and there is obviously some kind of tectonic/extreme erosion activity due to the massive ravines, either one of which could easily cause portions of the land to fall off.

    In addition, the area where you fight Kalameet is a dead ringer for the hydra lake, including the ladder. The game also abuses in-game distance. You can see the Duke's Archives on the mountain from Anor Londo, and it is nowhere near close enough to get to in a minute of running.

    Plus, can't you actually see the ledge where you find Alvina sitting in Darkroot? I do agree...those are the same two places. If not...then From just used Darkroot as a template. But, there's no doubt in my mind that Darkroot and Royal Gardens are the same place.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:45 pm

    There's a problem presented by that theory on the serpents-the 'worm' one. There are at least eight Primordial Serpents, as eight appear in the Dark Lord ending. Based on his or her dialogue, both Frampt and Kaathe may or may not be present during that ending, meaning there may actually be ten.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:24 pm

    The places are NOT the same, otherwise you would be finding the shortcut holes in the building with the bridge to alvina, the dimensions are totally wrong, not to mention the different names, you think if it was Oolacile people wouldn't remember that? Especially since they obviously know about Artorias...if you know what he did you think they'd forget where? Plus the "grave" in Sif's arena isn't a grave, it's a memorial. Alvina tells you this "Thou fared well to find me, but cometh thee not for the grave of sir artorias? My advice true, forget this! The legend of Artorias art none but a fabrication. Traversing the dark? Hmph, tis none but a fairy tale. Have thine own respect, 'Go not yonder knocking for nothing.' I say."

    She was there when you traverse the abyss, she knows you saved Sif and that Artorias did not stop the spread. She tells you to forget the grave of Artorias, not because she doesn't want you to find it but because she knows it's not there...and to go back to Oolacile would be dangerous in case more Darkness existed. Plus Sif is her friend, she doesn't want harm to come to her.

    As far as the serpents go, I stick to my theory. The only other theory I subscribe to is Shkar's theory about Gwyn being able to cause the fire to burn possibly forever, if even in a lessened state. However, not possessing a Lord Soul, you would not be able to. So in this case they are both working to the same end only when you link the fire, you won't last to become the dark lord so the serpents would have free reign over the darkness. They lead you in two different direction but to the same end.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Shkar on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:48 pm

    alchemydesign wrote:The places are NOT the same, otherwise you would be finding the shortcut holes in the building with the bridge to alvina, the dimensions are totally wrong, not to mention the different names, you think if it was Oolacile people wouldn't remember that? Especially since they obviously know about Artorias...if you know what he did you think they'd forget where? Plus the "grave" in Sif's arena isn't a grave, it's a memorial. Alvina tells you this "Thou fared well to find me, but cometh thee not for the grave of sir artorias? My advice true, forget this! The legend of Artorias art none but a fabrication. Traversing the dark? Hmph, tis none but a fairy tale. Have thine own respect, 'Go not yonder knocking for nothing.' I say."

    She was there when you traverse the abyss, she knows you saved Sif and that Artorias did not stop the spread. She tells you to forget the grave of Artorias, not because she doesn't want you to find it but because she knows it's not there...and to go back to Oolacile would be dangerous in case more Darkness existed. Plus Sif is her friend, she doesn't want harm to come to her.

    As far as the serpents go, I stick to my theory. The only other theory I subscribe to is Shkar's theory about Gwyn being able to cause the fire to burn possibly forever, if even in a lessened state. However, not possessing a Lord Soul, you would not be able to. So in this case they are both working to the same end only when you link the fire, you won't last to become the dark lord so the serpents would have free reign over the darkness. They lead you in two different direction but to the same end.

    The only difference that actually acts as evidence against it is the bridge. The dimensions aren't that off, names can change (Oolacile was renowned for it's light magics; when it was swallowed by the abyss, it became dark, and then was overgrown. Darkrot.), and only a handful of people actually knew about Artorias.

    Remember, the only sane people there at the time are Sif, Alvina, Gough, Ciaran, Chester, Dusk, and yourself. Sif and Alvina care more about their duty to Artorias than anything, Ciaran and Gough probably retired/died shortly after, Chester was MIA, and Dusk went missing immediately. For all we know, Ciaran and Gough told Gwyn and the rest of the world that it really was Artorias who died saving Oolacile; Dusk certainly thinks that.

    And, in actuality, I've also theorized that both endings may, in fact, cause the Flame to stop dying. It's entirely possible that the flame is dying because the lord souls were removed from it; and we do, in fact, bring the lord souls back (although the serpents may try to steal them).


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:15 pm

    Looks like I'm going to have to bust out MSPAINT again lol.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by EarthScraper on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:18 pm

    Don't Kaathe and Frampt have the same voice actors? They have EXACTLY the same face as well, they could be split personalities then.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:51 pm

    I note that Gwynevere actually directly tells the player that Kingseeker Frampt will aid the Chosen Undead. This means that at least one god (Gwyndolin) is either also being deceived by Frampt, or is genuinely working with him towards the same goal.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by twilightwarwolf on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:52 pm

    if i might have my own bit here i believe that the mutiple head hydra thing is possible now i also believe the split personality theory thing is plausible as well. now in my OWN opinion i believe that kaathe is not in the right completely but lets not assume that frampt is any better. why? for one they both want gwyn dead, they are both serpents so it is possible that frampt did get oolacile to and "tell" them about manus and finally have you listened to frampt? i personally get the feeling he's smooth talking where kaathe says the blunt truth (at least for the history part he tells) and speaks his mind i just dont get the same thing from frampt and he's too abiding so to speak (at least for my tastes). id also like to say oolacile is dark root as for one thing erosin over 1000 years is completely possible not to mention when you go after manus you can see he demolished the land so it isnt too hard to think maybe the land after years of erosion finally gave in AND allowed the water from the river or rivers flow into the other chunks of space left over and after more time eventually hid it deep in its depths. so yes i fully believe that darkroot garden is the last of oolacile with alvina protecting it so as to nt have that occur again. Now kaathe as for serving the dark lord im not sure he really is as i feel that when you come back from the kiln he isnt there and thus saying he went to start or finish what he is trying to accomplish and thus dark souls 2 imo but i feel that the loss of the flame is good and revitolizing it a bad thing but thats another matter.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:20 pm

    Okay, let me just say this...if Darkroot is Oolacile, and it happened so long before Gwyn linked the flame, why would Gwyn let Artorias suffer, why would he let them keep Gough locked up. Both were decorated Knights, both went solo, if it were the same area they would have had soldier detachments. The only way Darkroot could be Oolacile is if Lordran consists of stitched together spacial dimensions, which given the power of Lordran could be plausible, but I doubt it. I find it more likely that Oolacile based its architecture off of Darkroot which I'm sure used to be beautiful before the flame began to die.

    Lordran came before all other kingdoms, this is verifiable through the intro. And if history tells us anything, societies strive to emulate the Gods. One area in particular interests me and I wish I could get to it, and that is the township you can see right below the entrance to the catacombs (and NO it's not Lower Burg).
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Shkar on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:28 pm

    We have no idea how long it took for the Abyss to swallow Oolacile and get beat back. If anything, I would say it was less than a few days; Dusk was, after all, human, and didn't die of hunger/thirst in that time. Not great proof, but it's something. I also think the goo is acidic, and there isn't much sign of that.

    With the powers and technology we see in game, it is entirely possible that they simply didn't have enough time yet to go and put Artorias out of his misery. And, given the building that Gough is in, I think it was built around him (he is there willingly).


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by twilightwarwolf on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:36 pm

    ok for one thing they dont have cell phones and as far as i know any power to talk to each other between long distances so his suffering couldnt be told not to mention he sent them to fix this as he had the utmost faith that they could. i mean he did send three of his top knights there only makes sense he'd think well they can handle this. so he sent them and didnt go and when they returned and told him of the tragities there wasnt anything he could do by then. and as for the arcitecture you said it was better when the flame was thriving well thats why dark root looks like that because back when the flames were thriving it was oolacile now clearly its not all of oolacile just a peice and to my idea/theory the rest of oolacile is under the water at various points so that would explain the missing pieces.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:45 pm

    Well, actually, Ciaran followed Artorias, she wasn't sent. Has anyone actually went and LOOKED at the walls? In the Oolacile version, the first building you come to with the first shortcut, the distance from Door Jamb/Wall to Stairs is at least one good solid roll, okay, now, say you;re coming from Sif's Arena back to Alvina which would be the same building, you can see that the wall turns in MUCH sooner, within a few steps of Wall to Stairs, tell me that's the same building, not to mention the HUGE mass of land behind the Oolacile version that's completely gone in the Darkroot version, its a pretty big stretch to say time and "acidic abyss" took that much land and building away. Plus everyone keeps saying it was 1,000 years back...now, it might just be me, but where has it ever said that explicitly?

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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:51 pm

    Will be taking photos of discrepancies and posting them either tonight or tomorrow.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:57 pm

    Then I offer this; there is only one known major river in Lordran. Look at where Oolacile is in relation to both it and Anor Londo. The major landmarks appear in the same place as in the Darkroot Garden and Basin. I really doubt THOSE were in a different place.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by twilightwarwolf on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:57 pm

    look im not saying its a perfect double erosion and acid would tear down that kinda thing not to mention dlc was made AFTER the game so it will have differences along with its similairites and also here's a point to think on. Let's say your right and it isnt oolacile then why is there an enchanted ember FROM oolacile in darkroot? and about time maybe its not a 1000 years but damn it all if someone tries to tell me that wasnt at least a long while which could still have enough time to make it as it is seen in the game.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Dilaudid281 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:01 am

    Acarnatia wrote:There's a problem presented by that theory on the serpents-the 'worm' one. There are at least eight Primordial Serpents, as eight appear in the Dark Lord ending. Based on his or her dialogue, both Frampt and Kaathe may or may not be present during that ending, meaning there may actually be ten.

    Ah, ok. I need to watch that ending again lol

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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:32 am

    Well, you may be right, maybe it IS Oolacile, I do not think it is, there are too many things out of place...and as for the ember...why is there an ember from New Londo in the Demon Ruins (I've already speculated on that, don't remember what post it was though).
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by twilightwarwolf on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:54 am

    ember from new londo in demon ruins? i believe your mistaken (though i could be as well) as the two embers are from izalith


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:03 am

    Vamos wonders aloud if the Chaos Ember is 'an ember from New Londo?" which suggests it may be from New Londo.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:28 am

    It's very suggestive that it was indeed, only twisted when the witch failed to reproduce the flame.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Shkar on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:01 am

    Quelana specifically says, "Isn't a thousand years of atonement enough?" I also believe that Frampt says something along the lines of, "At long last, after a thousand years, you've arrived!"

    Also as more evidence for Oolacile = Darkroot: The ents and scarecrows are very similar, as are the stone giants, the glowing flowers, and the hydra lake/Kalameet arena. The ladder to these two places also fit, with the difference being explained by the river that appeared.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:12 am

    Well, I've given up trying to convince anyone otherwise, but as a final hurrah, the Oolacile Gardeners are scarecrows, wooden artifacts imbued with magic...darkroots ents are ents...demon trees...the buildings have different dimensions...the so called kalameet/hydra ladders are in totally different orientations, if you stand with the ladder to the left of you and face away from kalameet you see a huge cliff face...if you do the same in darkroot...stand with the ladder to your left and face to the back of the hydra you see a huge cove...sooooo, take what you will from that....plus the oolacile sanctuary area is too small to be Sif's arena, as well as it is surrounded by high cliff walls....MUCH higher than Sif;s arena.

    You're right about the thousand years...but there are variances...if the BoC was created a thousand years ago then Gwyn was still alive...we don't know how much time had passed from the time Gwyn linked the flame til when Frampt says the thousand years...but EVEN STILL Alvina is still alive, as well as others from that time who would remember it being Oolacile...plus if Gwyn was still alive at that point I can't imagine he would send only Gough, which I believe we can be sure that he was the first to arrive, followed by Artorias after Gough failed to return, followed by Ciaran after Artorias' downfall...

    Anyhow, like I said, I'm done trying to convince anyone otherwise...there are too many things that go one way or another...I believe 100% in my correctness however, so with a handshake and a bow I shall not discuss this any further.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by YouLikeCherries? on Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:48 pm

    alchemydesign wrote:Well, I've given up trying to convince anyone otherwise, but as a final hurrah, the Oolacile Gardeners are scarecrows, wooden artifacts imbued with magic...darkroots ents are ents...demon trees...the buildings have different dimensions...the so called kalameet/hydra ladders are in totally different orientations, if you stand with the ladder to the left of you and face away from kalameet you see a huge cliff face...if you do the same in darkroot...stand with the ladder to your left and face to the back of the hydra you see a huge cove...sooooo, take what you will from that....plus the oolacile sanctuary area is too small to be Sif's arena, as well as it is surrounded by high cliff walls....MUCH higher than Sif;s arena.

    You're right about the thousand years...but there are variances...if the BoC was created a thousand years ago then Gwyn was still alive...we don't know how much time had passed from the time Gwyn linked the flame til when Frampt says the thousand years...but EVEN STILL Alvina is still alive, as well as others from that time who would remember it being Oolacile...plus if Gwyn was still alive at that point I can't imagine he would send only Gough, which I believe we can be sure that he was the first to arrive, followed by Artorias after Gough failed to return, followed by Ciaran after Artorias' downfall...

    Anyhow, like I said, I'm done trying to convince anyone otherwise...there are too many things that go one way or another...I believe 100% in my correctness however, so with a handshake and a bow I shall not discuss this any further.
    I know you said you were done but I think there is to much evidence supporting Darkroot as Oolacile. First let's take a look at the enemies. The stone guardians have very large similarities. Dusks body is also found in Darkroot. Coincidence? I think not. There's also the mushrooms in Darkroot, they are probably descendants of Elizabeth. Dimensions don't mean anything after a good thousand years.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by GhosTAnoynmouS on Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:08 pm

    i think the hydra theory is very interesting, however i don't think we can be 100% positive that there are only two serpents but we must work with what we have so lets say (for now) there are only two it would be interesting of they were opposite ends to the same physical body and would be really good for explaining why we never see the rest of their bodies which i think is a very intentionally made aspect of them, there is no other being in the game that they hide completely or partially no matter how big even ceaseless discharge can fully be seen. but both seem to be manipulating us with either choice, but in contrast what would a third option be ? does one even exist? things in dark souls never seem to be so black and white so why is the ending this way?



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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:49 am

    The ending is purposeful, no matter which you choose, it is YOUR choice, you made it and you seen it through, "good" or "bad".

    I know you said you were done but I think there is to much evidence
    supporting Darkroot as Oolacile. First let's take a look at the enemies.
    The stone guardians have very large similarities. Dusks body is also
    found in Darkroot. Coincidence? I think not. There's also the mushrooms
    in Darkroot, they are probably descendants of Elizabeth. Dimensions
    don't mean anything after a good thousand years.

    So who do you think made them first, the Gods? Or Oolacilians? I think it was a quick remodel so they wouldn't have to make a whole new area for the DLC...and yes dimensions DO matter. It's hard to explain, I'd have to show you in person.

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