Primordial Serpent theory

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    Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:21 pm

    ***Please tell me if this has come up before***


    I was watching the dark lord ending the other day and noticed something funny in the text. When you go out the Primordial Serpents say the following:


    My Lord, bless thy safe return.
    Let Kaathe, and Frampt, serve your highness.
    We are here to serve your highness.


    Now, I find this interesting for a couple of reasons. First, I think that there are only TWO primordial serpents, I base this on line two of the speech "Let Kaathe, and Frampt..." it only references the two. Otherwise they would have used a more encompassing plural such as "We are all" or "Let us." Now, I theorize that they are hydras, well, the primordial forerunners to hydras. Secondly, in the DLC only one serpent is ever referenced which I think could mean that rather than two they might even possibly be one entity with separate agendas.

    This is, of course, impossible to prove without direct access to Miyazaki's brain-meats. But they only ever refer to themselves or the other, there is no real evidence that there is more than two serpents. Also, more evidence that they could be just one serpent, Chester says:


    Believe it not, Oolacile
    has brought the abyss upon itself.
    Fooled by that toothy serpent.
    They upturned the grave of primeval man,
    and incited his ornery wrath.
    What COULD they have been thinking?
    An, to you and I, it's ancient history,
    you have to ask yourself "Does it REALLY matter?"


    He refers to only one serpent, now most believe that he is purposefully grave and mysterious, not wanting to name one or the other, but what if it's only ONE serpent? Chester says it's ancient history, what if a thousand years ago Kaathe and Frampt were mentally ONE creature, but as time went by a mental schism occurred creating a multiple personality, perhaps due to internal conflict? I know I sure argue with myself sometimes when making decisions, but I'm not a hydra so I don't know how their mental dynamics work. Maybe there was a small bit of pity for Gwynn and that caused the Frampt personality whereas the Kaathe personality is stalwart in its search for the Dark Lord.

    Here is what Gough mentions on the matter:


    [center]But the Dark of the Abyss, which swallowed poor Artorias,
    threatens to devour our entire land of Oolacile.
    It seems that this dire fate is unavoidable.
    But, seduced by a Dark serpent or no,
    they awoke that thing themselves, and drove it mad.
    ...One's demise is always one's own making.
    Once again it is only referred to as a single serpent. It's also interesting to note that the dark is spoke of in pronoun form "the Dark" as if it is an entity in and of itself, and Gough calls it a Dark serpent, as if the serpent itself is not separate of itself but a part of it, which would again point to them being a single entity joined in the Dark.

    Well, that's pretty much all I got right now. Feedback welcome (constructive feedback that is)
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by densetsushun on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:50 pm

    It's an interesting speculation, but I believe From(or Miyazaki) intended it to be mysterious, I think they wanted us to doubt, and definitely get a sense from the DLC that they intended for us to doubt even further whether or not there IS a right path, whether or not you're just a pawn in their twisted Primordial Serpent games.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by lalliman on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:02 pm

    This theory about the serpents being a hydra has been mentioned before, and i completely support it.
    Lemme point out though that Chester's comment about it being ancient history is because Chester is a person from the present trapped in the past, and knows you are too.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Shkar on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:48 pm

    I've brought this theory up several times before, so I whole-heartedly support your thoughts on the matter!

    As an aside, here's a simple question to help reinforce that they are leading you astray: Why would the Kaathe personality WANT to find the Dark Lord?


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by X-government-agent on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:00 pm

    I totally agree with the one serpant and this also explains why u never see there body cas if u did then there would be no mystery cas you would see they are the one thing happy props on the thread very well writtenj


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:05 pm

    I think that the "let Kaathe and Frampt serve your highness" suggests that they are the highest in the hierarchy of the Primordial Serpents.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by IWeltrip on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:09 pm

    I support the Hydra Theory. I had always wondered how Frampt could physically bend his neck in two completely different directions.

    If you jump into the pit he is peeking out of you enter the "door" to the next area about three feet, and you fall about twenty feet down before landing. The elevators in the game appear to ascend or descend about One-hundred feet*.

    Frampt couldn't simply hold you in his mouth, and bend forward unless there were enough space to do so, and for at least one-hundred feet down there is the side of a cliff in front of him (the elevator to New Londo Ruins).

    Perhaps Frampt doesn't carry you in his mouth, but instead "swallows" you into another of his heads... Since he is a Primordial being, his physiology probably isn't "normal", just as the Pygmy was entirely too small to convene with the giants.

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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:56 pm

    This theory about the serpents being a hydra has been mentioned before, and i completely support it.
    Lemme
    point out though that Chester's comment about it being ancient history
    is because Chester is a person from the present trapped in the past, and
    knows you are too.

    Hm, well, I was unaware that others had felt this way, but I'm rather happy that I got there on my own and also glad that others think the same as I happy. Now as for Chester pointing out the ancient history, yes he knows he's in the past but is completely unaware that the history he knows is because of you so he doesn't believe you are relevant to it.

    As an aside, here's a simple question to help reinforce that they are
    leading you astray: Why would the Kaathe personality WANT to find the
    Dark Lord?

    Well, I believe that the Kaathe entity is the embodiment of the original intent. Meaning he was involved somehow with the Furtive Pygmy, who was clearly biding his time to rise to power. He would want to find the Dark Lord to reign Dark over everything and bring the original intent to fruition. I think we are mislead to the Pygmy's intentions three words in the opening dialogue: "...so easily forgotten..."
    Most people, I think, take this to mean that he was small, weak, not important. I, on the other hand, believe that because the Dark Soul wasn't overt it wasn't assumed to be on the same level as, say, Gwyn's Lord Soul. Thus, the Pygmy, being so easily forgotten was allowed to further his plans in secrecy, splitting the Dark Soul among the undead (which, in my opinion is the natural condition of humans since there were no humans until the other Lord Souls were found). Therefore the Pygmy is quite a bit more cunning than we are led to believe.

    If you jump into the pit he is peeking out of you enter the "door" to
    the next area about three feet, and you fall about twenty feet down
    before landing. The elevators in the game appear to ascend or descend
    about One-hundred feet*

    This is rather misleading, it may seem like a small jump but I believe there is more to it than that. It's more like an instant travel. Being so close at that point to the Dark Soul you can almost travel as the serpents do through the Dark (only not quite as well as you don't have a command over the Dark Soul yet). The Kiln of the First Flame isn't quite right under Firelink, in my opinion. It's like a removed dimension, where the First Flame is the roots and Lordran is the tree but unable to coexist on the same planes....if that makes sense (does to me, but I could just be weird?).
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Shkar on Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:22 pm

    Simply having a connection to the Pygmy doesn't really explain why Kaathe would support him. We are talking about the oldest, likely most powerful being on earth, willingly choosing to bow to some random shmuck who manages to kill a guy.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:41 pm

    Hm, I'm not sure I follow what you mean. Let's do a thought exercise. If I were the Pygmy and I find a Lord Soul, but it's different from the others, it's not as flashy but I know that one day, it shall be at the forefront of the world, I would take steps, one day I have an idea "One day, the Gods will fear this power, they will seek to snuff it when their time comes to an end. I will hide my soul." What's the best way? Break it into many pieces and hide it in the subjects of the gods, but will it work? Let's try, so I split the soul and create Manus...I see that it's possible to break the soul but I gave too much to Manus, it broke him so I have to break it into smaller pieces. I'll make it a legacy among the people, but as people are fallible they are prone to forgetting history, I'll find those who can keep the truths hidden in legends, those who would actively seek to bring the Dark Soul to power. I find the Kaathe entity...it can exist in the Dark, it's what I need, it's from the beginning and will be til the end.

    So, back to your post. We don't know how powerful Kaathe/Frampt are. All we know is that they use devious persuasion to meet their goal. By slaying Gwyn you are proving that you have mastered the Dark Soul, or at least have an EXTREMELY HIGH POTENTIAL to master it. We know that Gwyn's Lord Soul made him able to slay dragons...what we don't know is the power potential of the Dark Soul
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Shkar on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:11 pm

    alchemydesign wrote:Hm, I'm not sure I follow what you mean. Let's do a thought exercise. If I were the Pygmy and I find a Lord Soul, but it's different from the others, it's not as flashy but I know that one day, it shall be at the forefront of the world, I would take steps, one day I have an idea "One day, the Gods will fear this power, they will seek to snuff it when their time comes to an end. I will hide my soul." What's the best way? Break it into many pieces and hide it in the subjects of the gods, but will it work? Let's try, so I split the soul and create Manus...I see that it's possible to break the soul but I gave too much to Manus, it broke him so I have to break it into smaller pieces. I'll make it a legacy among the people, but as people are fallible they are prone to forgetting history, I'll find those who can keep the truths hidden in legends, those who would actively seek to bring the Dark Soul to power. I find the Kaathe entity...it can exist in the Dark, it's what I need, it's from the beginning and will be til the end.

    So, back to your post. We don't know how powerful Kaathe/Frampt are. All we know is that they use devious persuasion to meet their goal. By slaying Gwyn you are proving that you have mastered the Dark Soul, or at least have an EXTREMELY HIGH POTENTIAL to master it. We know that Gwyn's Lord Soul made him able to slay dragons...what we don't know is the power potential of the Dark Soul
    happy

    I don't think the Pygmy WAS trying to subvert the gods; he helped them fight the dragons. He was given an honorable burial (assuming he was Manus). The Gods would have stopped at nothing to stop him if they thought he was going to try to challenge the peace they just established after who knows how many years of dragons.

    Instead, we KNOW that the serpents are liars. We KNOW that Kaathe doesn't truly want what's best for humanity (since he has you go around and suck out their souls). Honestly, it's not much of a stretch to assume that Kaathe was lying about the Dark Lord. Again, why would the most ancient being in the world voluntarily seek to enslave itself?


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:05 pm

    We don't know that Kaathe is the 'most powerful being in the world'. We also don't know what the Furtive Pygmy was planning to do with the Dark Soul, and whether he aided or plotted to overthrow the gods; I think the creators quite intentionally never said.
    On 'after who knows how many years of dragons'-the dragons actually existed for an untold amount of time (I'm guessing a VERY long time) before humans and gods found the first souls, and quite possibly before there even were gods, giants and humans to even find souls. We are also never told that the dragons attacked them-in fact, the exact thing that is stated is that 'With the strength of Lords, they challenged the dragons." The Lords and gods were the attackers, for no in-game stated reason, much as the Dark now seeks to usurp the gods. (whereas they actually do give a reason)
    The Darkwraith's Lifedrain ability also doesn't steal souls; it steals Humanity. Whether that's good or not is questionable with the paradoxial nature of Humanity in this world; it's the very material that keeps players from becoming undead and going Hollow, fuels the Bonfires, all while connected to the Dark. We don't KNOW that Kaathe plans to manipulate the world into his slaves; that's your opinion. The Chosen Undead also isn't necessarily some 'random shmuck'; we don't know who started the prophecy of the Chosen Undead or of the Dark Lord. The player also doesn't kill 'some guy'; s/he kills Gwyn the god of the sun. That's quite an achievement, wince even once Hollowed and deprived of so much power, he's still stronger (drops more souls) than any of the other Lords.
    Finally, I don't think is offering himself up as a slave, only a servant. I can think of another character in a famous fantasy story who trained, taught and led a young man (or possibly a woman in Dark Soul's case) and then stood back as a servant, all the while maintaining a position as an advisor; Merlin from Arthurian legend. Merlin wasn't a slave; neither is Kaathe, I think.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Shkar on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:54 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:We don't know that Kaathe is the 'most powerful being in the world'. We also don't know what the Furtive Pygmy was planning to do with the Dark Soul, and whether he aided or plotted to overthrow the gods; I think the creators quite intentionally never said.
    On 'after who knows how many years of dragons'-the dragons actually existed for an untold amount of time (I'm guessing a VERY long time) before humans and gods found the first souls, and quite possibly before there even were gods, giants and humans to even find souls. We are also never told that the dragons attacked them-in fact, the exact thing that is stated is that 'With the strength of Lords, they challenged the dragons." The Lords and gods were the attackers, for no in-game stated reason, much as the Dark now seeks to usurp the gods. (whereas they actually do give a reason)
    The Darkwraith's Lifedrain ability also doesn't steal souls; it steals Humanity. Whether that's good or not is questionable with the paradoxial nature of Humanity in this world; it's the very material that keeps players from becoming undead and going Hollow, fuels the Bonfires, all while connected to the Dark. We don't KNOW that Kaathe plans to manipulate the world into his slaves; that's your opinion. The Chosen Undead also isn't necessarily some 'random shmuck'; we don't know who started the prophecy of the Chosen Undead or of the Dark Lord. The player also doesn't kill 'some guy'; s/he kills Gwyn the god of the sun. That's quite an achievement, wince even once Hollowed and deprived of so much power, he's still stronger (drops more souls) than any of the other Lords.
    Finally, I don't think is offering himself up as a slave, only a servant. I can think of another character in a famous fantasy story who trained, taught and led a young man (or possibly a woman in Dark Soul's case) and then stood back as a servant, all the while maintaining a position as an advisor; Merlin from Arthurian legend. Merlin wasn't a slave; neither is Kaathe, I think.


    First off, I can't tell if you are pissed off or if it just seemed that way to me. If you are, understand that I wasn't trying to be confrontational.

    For the part about "many years of dragons," I had actually been referring to the war against the dragons. The opening cinematic makes it look short, but we also see enough dragons to fill the sky. That doesn't make for a short war, if they have to cleanse the entire world (or thereabouts) of apex predators. Understand, dragons typically are seen as forces of destruction; not even beasts, just walking disasters. Of the dragons, and their close relatives, we see in game, only the one in Ash Lake doesn't immediately try to eat us (Although Seath at least is acting in self-defense).

    There is little to no evidence of any cruelty or wrongdoing on the parts of the gods, but the darkwraiths gleefully slaughter people in order to offer up their essences to Kaathe, who later mocks them for being weak. And that is why it is likely that Kaathe's intentions are NOT to serve: He is evil. Worse, he isn't just evil, he is the mastermind behind the greatest threat in Lordran. And if there is one thing that evil masterminds are NOT, it is humble. Merlin served Arthur, a (mostly good) man who was given divine right to rule. But evil does not work that way; evil thrives on domination and cruelty. Unless you can overpower and force evil to serve you, it will not do so willingly unless they get something good out of the deal.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:47 am

    I can respect that line of thought, it IS possible that perhaps the Kaathe entity learned of what the Pygmy was, and/or doing and is seeking to usurp or pervert the intentions.

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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:32 pm

    I think the "Let Frampt and Kaathe serve you" line shows that the names are clan names and not individual names. Even if they are a hydra they are split on their agendas, even if mysteriously both agendas seem to end up in similar results. If you have the time to read here is what I think about the serpents though.. http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t15104-analysis-series-dark-souls-intro-truths-reveled


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Gambs_the_Grey on Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:33 am

    I assume Seath laid siege to oolacile. He had kidnapped their princess and in his obsession for knowledge wanted to master their powers of magic.

    Seath had helped Gwyn in the battle against dragons, and was given regal status. So while gwyn might have disaproved of Seaths plan he was powerless to stop it.
    Kaathe/frampt persueded Oolacile to disturb the tomb of Manus. To help them conquer Seath.

    Messing with Manus started the rise of darkness.
    Gwyn feared the dark, and sent his best knight Arty to try and stop the rise.. He makes a deal with k/f so he can traverse the abyss, but alas was not strong enough to over power it, and falls to darkness.

    Darkness spreads to new londo, Gwyns 4 kings do a deal with k/f and become darkwraiths.

    Gwyn panics and with the sealers, flood new londo to contain the darkness.
    Realising his powers are fading Gwyn leaves for the kiln and uses his own life force to keep the first flame burning. Knowing if that flame went out only darkness remains.

    What would have happened to Oolacile if the chosen undead had not gone back in time ?
    Did the god of war have a hand in freeing Manus ? was that the mistake that his father punished him for ?

    Was Gwyn not a benevolent god ? I dont see how the dark lord ending can be considered the better of the 2 endings for mankind. When it was darkness that destroyed oolacile and new Londo.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by IWeltrip on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:46 am

    alchemydesign wrote:
    If you jump into the pit...[clip]

    This is rather misleading, it may seem like a small jump but I believe there is more to it than that. It's more like an instant travel. Being so close at that point to the Dark Soul you can almost travel as the serpents do through the Dark (only not quite as well as you don't have a command over the Dark Soul yet). The Kiln of the First Flame isn't quite right under Firelink, in my opinion. It's like a removed dimension, where the First Flame is the roots and Lordran is the tree but unable to coexist on the same planes....if that makes sense (does to me, but I could just be weird?).

    That makes a great amount of sense to me, although I enjoy researching Metaphysics so I might just be weird as well.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:37 am

    Ah, a man cut of the same cloth as me. I think that we take the world of Lordran too literally as there are a lot of things that don't seem to make sense, such as Ash Lake where the Archtrees seems to go onward and upward forever, but that can't be as it's pretty much right beside the TotG underground.

    If time in Lordran flows differently, why not the space as well? Entering different zones might equate to stepping through the planes. Being the home of the God's I would imagine that this is the only way it could work to make ANY sense at all.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by NPCWhiteMage on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:27 pm

    Gambs_the_Grey wrote:I assume Seath laid siege to oolacile. He had kidnapped their princess and in his obsession for knowledge wanted to master their powers of magic.

    Seath had helped Gwyn in the battle against dragons, and was given regal status. So while gwyn might have disaproved of Seaths plan he was powerless to stop it.
    Kaathe/frampt persueded Oolacile to disturb the tomb of Manus. To help them conquer Seath.

    Messing with Manus started the rise of darkness.
    Gwyn feared the dark, and sent his best knight Arty to try and stop the rise.. He makes a deal with k/f so he can traverse the abyss, but alas was not strong enough to over power it, and falls to darkness.

    Darkness spreads to new londo, Gwyns 4 kings do a deal with k/f and become darkwraiths.

    Gwyn panics and with the sealers, flood new londo to contain the darkness.
    Realising his powers are fading Gwyn leaves for the kiln and uses his own life force to keep the first flame burning. Knowing if that flame went out only darkness remains.

    What would have happened to Oolacile if the chosen undead had not gone back in time ?
    Did the god of war have a hand in freeing Manus ? was that the mistake that his father punished him for ?

    Was Gwyn not a benevolent god ? I dont see how the dark lord ending can be considered the better of the 2 endings for mankind. When it was darkness that destroyed oolacile and new Londo.
    So what you are saying is....Gwyn is scared of the dark.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Orango19 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:23 am

    alchemydesign wrote:Ah, a man cut of the same cloth as me. I think that we take the world of Lordran too literally as there are a lot of things that don't seem to make sense, such as Ash Lake where the Archtrees seems to go onward and upward forever, but that can't be as it's pretty much right beside the TotG underground.

    If time in Lordran flows differently, why not the space as well? Entering different zones might equate to stepping through the planes. Being the home of the God's I would imagine that this is the only way it could work to make ANY sense at all.

    TotG, Lordran and pretty much all of the game, is over one of the grey crags. Like a mountain in the middle of an archtree "swamp".


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:11 am

    The only thing that really annoys me is when people assume that Darkroot Garden/Basin is Oolacile...it is NOT. It has many similarities but I believe that is more from either Oolacile's architecture is based on that from Lordran's own Gardens rather than Lordran copying Oolacile. There are, in fact, NO exact areas. Sure, the bridge to Sif looks like the bridge from the Sanc. Gaurdians arena, but it's not. The Sanc. Gaurdians arena is tiny...TINY...like half the size of the Sif Arena, plus there is no door from the Sanc. Arena, you exit through a small tunnel and there is a hill/wall when you come to the bridge. After crossing the bridge, you get the sense that because the overlooking ledge is similar that it must be the same area, but upon closer inspection the landscape from bridge to shortcut building is much different.

    There are other differences, but I'm playing my Mage right now and just wanna get that out there as it's been eating at me for a while now.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Shkar on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:37 am

    The events of Oolacile took place before Gwyn linked the flame, so at LEAST 1000 years ago.

    A lot of erosion can happen over a thousand years. Any similarity is enough.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by alchemydesign on Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:29 am

    I know the history, but no, it's not enough, where the first shortcut building is...the dimensions do not match the darkroot garden building at all...the tree people aren't even the same...the dlc enemies are scarecrows...animated wooden constructs...the darkroot enemies are actual trees. The hillsides are different, and whole areas are just gone, like the huge land mass that holds the Oolacile colesseum is gone in darkroot.

    They are NOT the same place...at all. Plus, if they were it would make no sense, it would make the world of Dark Souls about the size of Britain with the different kingdoms mashed up against each other and I can't prescribe to that belief at all.
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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Shkar on Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:40 am

    alchemydesign wrote:I know the history, but no, it's not enough, where the first shortcut building is...the dimensions do not match the darkroot garden building at all...the tree people aren't even the same...the dlc enemies are scarecrows...animated wooden constructs...the darkroot enemies are actual trees. The hillsides are different, and whole areas are just gone, like the huge land mass that holds the Oolacile colesseum is gone in darkroot.

    They are NOT the same place...at all. Plus, if they were it would make no sense, it would make the world of Dark Souls about the size of Britain with the different kingdoms mashed up against each other and I can't prescribe to that belief at all.

    The dimensions of the building seemed fine to me, and if they had to alter it slightly to account for changes in the DLC, fine. We have no clue how the Oolacian constructs work. They clearly run on souls; it's possible they are alive and adapted. Hillsides can be considered the result of the standard 1000 years of erosion, and there is obviously some kind of tectonic/extreme erosion activity due to the massive ravines, either one of which could easily cause portions of the land to fall off.

    In addition, the area where you fight Kalameet is a dead ringer for the hydra lake, including the ladder. The game also abuses in-game distance. You can see the Duke's Archives on the mountain from Anor Londo, and it is nowhere near close enough to get to in a minute of running.


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    Re: Primordial Serpent theory

    Post by Dilaudid281 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:12 am

    I actually don't believe they're 2 separate serpents, nor do I believe that they're the same serpent with a split personality. I'm more leaning towards, same serpent, but with two heads. Like the Hydra, but this is more like a worm, where it's extremely unbelievable in length, and with a head at each end.

    twisted===========================================================:evil:

    They seem to represent morality...but are acting as the grey area. The choice comes down to you, but they're the ones who lay out the options to choose from. On one hand, you support the Gods and kindle the flame...on the other, you support Man and extinguish the flame. Whatever they are, they seem to represent the Three Serpents that have been in other works, one belongs to Chaos, one belongs to Order, and they are linked around another for Balance.

    Kaathe being Chaos and Frampt being Order

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