Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by The Letter X on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:51 pm

    I really hate seeing people post that they'd rather rely on skill to win when in WyrmHero's "Intelligence vs. Skill" and the "Does Dark Souls Really take that much Skill" threads the overwhelming majority of people posted that Dark Souls requires little to no skill in the first place because of how broken PvP is. That is another reason why I like withholding my knowledge specifically in Dark Souls.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:53 pm

    Animaaal wrote:

    The day warfare becomes akin to sports relative to competition, is the day we all stick our heads in the sand and kiss our ***es good-bye.



    Couldn't resist.

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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:59 pm

    The Letter X wrote:I really hate seeing people post that they'd rather rely on skill to win when in WyrmHero's "Intelligence vs. Skill" and the "Does Dark Souls Really take that much Skill" threads the overwhelming majority of people posted that Dark Souls requires little to no skill in the first place because of how broken PvP is. That is another reason why I like withholding my knowledge specifically in Dark Souls.

    1) Sorry I guess

    2) No skill? Souls series equals most rage quits....ever.

    3) Saying a thread in this forum represents the majority is folly.

    4) Thats your prerogative. I just hope you appreciate everything you've learned from this forum. Which I'm sure you do, just saying.

    ***EDIT***
    deleted childish non-witty comeback....wikidot has done things to me.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:05 pm

    I'll happily tell a wrestler or sparring partner I just beat how I did it.

    Skill is not knowledge, skill is the aplication of knowledge.

    If the knowledge is uneven, skill is no longer the determining factor. The importance of skill is lessened further as the uneven knowledge distribution becomes more pronounced.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by The Letter X on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:06 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:I really hate seeing people post that they'd rather rely on skill to win when in WyrmHero's "Intelligence vs. Skill" and the "Does Dark Souls Really take that much Skill" threads the overwhelming majority of people posted that Dark Souls requires little to no skill in the first place because of how broken PvP is. That is another reason why I like withholding my knowledge specifically in Dark Souls.

    1) Sorry I guess

    2) No skill? Souls series equals most rage quits....ever.

    3) Saying a thread in this forum represents the majority is folly.

    4) Thats your prerogative. I just hope you appreciate everything you've learned from this forum. Which I'm sure you do, just saying.

    I really hate it when people say DeS and DkS pvp requires no skill.

    You didn't join the forum until much after those threads were created. I meant to direct it at others, but my point stands that I saw nearly every post say that Dark Souls PvP (I should have included that it was directed at PvP) requires little to no skill. I believe it takes a lot of skill. I do enjoy what I've learned from the forum and look forward to learning more; I just can't stand certain conflicting posts of the same person. Prostration

    I'm not trying to attack you or anyone else, only stating my observations.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:09 pm

    Skill, tactics, and the mind are the means to justify the ends in our abilities in PvP, which affects the battle. What we share here is taken and modifed to fit our combat stlyes, which is a good thing to improve and enhance our power against the oppenent. But we don't tell what our weaknesses are nor tell how to exploit our tactics' weak points. In this PvP we look for something as indivduals, some to learn and share new things, others find an edge etc. There's a balance somewhere here but do we see it?


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:21 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I'll happily tell a wrestler or sparring partner I just beat how I did it.

    Skill is not knowledge, skill is the aplication of knowledge.

    If the knowledge is uneven, skill is no longer the determining factor. The importance of skill is lessened further as the uneven knowledge distribution becomes more pronounced.

    Agreed. Much like my awesome "resistance" build is impractical in competitive pvp.

    The Letter X wrote:...You didn't join the forum until much after....

    That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Not sure why that comment was made at all. My "resume" relative to this game is outstanding.

    Back on topic...

    ...The only reason the metagame has progressed to the level it has is because of sharing knowledge which in turn, has also developed a thriving community atmosphere we all come to appreciate.

    (Which i have personally been appreciating for a VERY long time....elsewhere)
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by The Letter X on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:25 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:...You didn't join the forum until much after....

    That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Not sure why that comment was made at all. My "resume" relative to this game is outstanding.

    I made that comment to show that my previous comment was not directed at you.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:26 pm

    @Soris Ice Goldwing Speak for yourself, I both explain fualts in tactics I present and occasionally encourage others to find more, if they can, so that I can cover them and so people thinking of adopting it know what they're dealing with.

    Why half help by skipping over weaknesses? There's a very real possibly thats more a hinderance than help, getting them murdered by people used to dealing with that tactic.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:29 pm

    Dark Souls can involve a lot of skill, but builds are also very important. If your build can't normally defeat a turtler, if the turtler is relatively less skilled, they can still win.

    There are many variables to consider, the area you are fighting in, the types of fighting styles, as well as what counters what. Mobility, damage taking, and damage dealing.

    Dark Souls is not all that well balanced in general, it is a bit better now that the DWGR has been nerfed but it still isn't near perfect.

    It's similar to SSBB, a game I love. I played it competitively in a tourney style, but it totally wasn't meant to be. TO do so, you need to limit the areas played in, number of players, remove lag so local, remove items, and possibly ban characters depending on where you are.

    Dark Souls is a game that can require a lot of skill to play, if you are facing someone with a similar build luck of the draw, or competence of the player will take control over the victory. There are also people who rock zero poise with no armor, and defeat those that can one shot them, while using a broken sword. On average, build takes priority. Then comes connection, then comes skill. Skill can however overcome the others if the person is good enough.
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:34 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:@Soris Ice Goldwing Speak for yourself, I both explain fualts in tactics I present and occasionally encourage others to find more, if they can, so that I can cover them and so people thinking of adopting it know what they're dealing with.

    Why half help by skipping over weaknesses? There's a very real possibly thats more a hinderance than help, getting them murdered by people used to dealing with that tactic.

    If I get the chance I'll help people with a lot of things but I'm not telling my faults. "we don't tell what our weaknesses are nor tell how to exploit our tactics' weak points" When people learn what's wrong with them then they can get better and not by getting some cheap idea that throws skill and improvement out the window.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:38 pm

    The Letter X wrote:...I made that comment to show that my previous comment was not directed at you...

    Well then maybe I misread your intentions. I apologize, I was offended. Thank you for the explanation. A certain Dark Souls wiki forum has breed defensiveness....I gotta stop with that mentality.

    But I don't think one necessarily needs to read a thread like you mentioned in order to understand it. People have been saying for a long time that Dark Souls pvp takes no skill. Those threads are everywhere. Mostly started by vanity seekers. Not saying thats why those threads were started here.

    The reason it takes skill is because of the knowledge shared through the community. ie. What if backstab immunity and dead angle videos were never shared amongst the "tribe"? Imo that would give way to the arguement that knowledge equals wins. However, the community has shared that information ergo developed the necessity to understand the information and translate it to skills required to overcome said information.
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:53 pm

    Again, speak for yourself. I will explain them, if I'm aware of them and am teaching or having a theoretical discussion on tactics. How can I improve it or devise counters if nobody knows how to deal with it? Its less fun to win becase my opponent is uninformed, so I inform them if they ask.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by The Letter X on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:59 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Again, speak for yourself. I will explain them, if I'm aware of them and am teaching or having a theoretical discussion on tactics. How can I improve it or devise counters if nobody knows how to deal with it? Its less fun to win becase my opponent is uninformed, so I inform them if they ask.

    If someone asks me a question, I will answer no matter the situation. That is where I draw the line on my position for this discussion. I have a different opinion on sharing every little thing I find with everyone I meet, though. I still can't see the reason for doing so.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:04 pm

    Well no, I'm not going to shout it into the winds. I'm only going to help people who I believe will appreciate/use it and those people are the most likely to ask.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Emergence on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:13 pm

    Dark Souls is a game, one that I love and one that I want other people to love. It's the reason for the wiki, and the reason for the forums and chat, and it's the reason Mugenmonkey has to be one of the most linked sites in gaming.

    If I see an opportunity to help someone better enjoy that experience then I will do so, even if it means telling them how to better defend themselves from me.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:14 pm

    I love bunnies...do with it what you will...-_-...



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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:17 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Dark Souls can involve a lot of skill, but builds are also very important. If your build can't normally defeat a turtler, if the turtler is relatively less skilled, they can still win.

    There are many variables to consider, the area you are fighting in, the types of fighting styles, as well as what counters what. Mobility, damage taking, and damage dealing.

    Dark Souls is not all that well balanced in general, it is a bit better now that the DWGR has been nerfed but it still isn't near perfect.

    It's similar to SSBB, a game I love. I played it competitively in a tourney style, but it totally wasn't meant to be. TO do so, you need to limit the areas played in, number of players, remove lag so local, remove items, and possibly ban characters depending on where you are.

    Dark Souls is a game that can require a lot of skill to play, if you are facing someone with a similar build luck of the draw, or competence of the player will take control over the victory. There are also people who rock zero poise with no armor, and defeat those that can one shot them, while using a broken sword. On average, build takes priority. Then comes connection, then comes skill. Skill can however overcome the others if the person is good enough.

    It looks like I got bottom paged.
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:29 pm

    I will help someone whenever I can. In PvP I tell you the mechanics, show you the weapons pros and cons, offer tips, even help you gank someone who keeps killing you if to show how brutal the game gets. But I draw the line on PvP glitchs, lag backstabbs, and exposing my weaknesses. I will show you how I play but not how to kill me. That I leave to the person to figure out.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:10 am

    Tolvo wrote:Plus if you post it first, then you get to go "I thought of it first!"
    Nobody cares if you were the first person to come up with something.

    I share information for purely selfish reasons. I want other players to be good because that gives me more of a challenge. If I share information with people then, with any luck, they'll pick it up and improve their game.

    Though it does take time for people to catch on sometimes, it does happen eventually. Cross-up, counter backstabbing, and toggle escape all used to be obscure techniques. Other than toggle escape, which people instantly loved, they all went through periods of being commonly known, but generally thought of as too esoteric for common play, similar to how instant-blocking is treated now.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:45 am

    The Letter X wrote:Would you guys consider sharing your tactics with rival sports teams or enemies at war?

    I think the problem is that we see our opponents differently. I basically see everyone outside of my closest group of online friends as potential enemies. I want my friends/comrades to know every secret I have so we can prosper, but I'd rather not share it with anyone else.
    Rival sports team? Yeah. We, Dark Souls PvP players, are very close to that. We play to enjoy the game, but also to be good at it.
    War is war, it can't be compared to anything else but another war.

    Not all people are nice, but if I do meet someone nice I always start chatting with the person at one point, or another. If he wishes to, I will tell him my weaknesses, or what he did wrong, thus why he lost to me, or the other way around.

    It actually helps me to get better, because the next time I face him, he will know how to effectively fight me and exploit my weaknesses. Thanks to that, I can better myself, by covering my weaknesses and getting rid of them completely.

    For example, I've said here numerous times, that I get destroyed by spears. While it is surely a coincidence, or perhaps some sort of new fashion in DkS PvP, I started to meet a lot more spear users than before. I got killed by them so many times that I was frustrated to the point of rage quitting, but I didn't, I adapted, learned how to fight them and now spears are no problem for me.

    tl:dr
    I'm trying to say, that telling others our weaknesses can help us become better.

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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by ChizFreak on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:18 pm

    Emergence wrote:Dark Souls is a game, one that I love and one that I want other people to love. It's the reason for the wiki, and the reason for the forums and chat, and it's the reason Mugenmonkey has to be one of the most linked sites in gaming.

    If I see an opportunity to help someone better enjoy that experience then I will do so, even if it means telling them how to better defend themselves from me.

    I love it too man, and you know I put info on the wiki too.

    But I don't agree entirely when it comes to PvP, as it is in PvE, the main point of fun in Dark Souls is to discover how to overcome a challenge, and feel that feeling of overcoming something finally, that feeling of success, what's the point if I tell you how to beat everything? Or I just beat you and I tell you what are my weaknesses? It's like telling everyone how's the entire PvE before they do their first playthrough, they are losing doing it for themselves, and achieving that feeling of overcoming that challenge because THEY and only they actually realized the weakness of their opponent.

    To give an example: I'm invading the same group of gankers several times, they beat me all times, I search for their weakness and try to exploit it, I don't need anyone to tell me (though when it comes to random people with random builds no one can tell you unless they themselves see the guys), that's when you learn to actually search for your opponent's weakness, instead of having everyone saying to you "against this build, do this".

    Skill comes with practice and experience, anyone can acquire skill given they put enough time into the game. Knowledge on the other hand, is acquired by being smart, by paying attention to specific gameplay mechanics, find a weakness and a way to exploit it. That's the fun of Dark Souls, find a way to beat your enemy (both in PvE AND PvP). Skill is secondary, because as I said, and several others agree, Skill is the capability to apply knowledge (like Knowledge = know how dodge works, Skill = know how to dodge in real combat), and that can be acquired by anyone by just practicing.

    Though remember I'm saying we shouldn't share all information, just read my previous posts to know what I mean.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by ChizFreak on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:21 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    Tolvo wrote:Plus if you post it first, then you get to go "I thought of it first!"
    Nobody cares if you were the first person to come up with something.

    I share information for purely selfish reasons. I want other players to be good because that gives me more of a challenge. If I share information with people then, with any luck, they'll pick it up and improve their game.

    Though it does take time for people to catch on sometimes, it does happen eventually. Cross-up, counter backstabbing, and toggle escape all used to be obscure techniques. Other than toggle escape, which people instantly loved, they all went through periods of being commonly known, but generally thought of as too esoteric for common play, similar to how instant-blocking is treated now.

    That's exactly the reason I don't do it, I'm kind of selfish when it comes to that, but, given an scenario where I beat everyone, I prefer to wait for real people to actually realize how to beat me, instead of me telling them my weaknesses, that's when a "worthy" opponent will finally rise. The only thing you get by doing that is guys that know how to beat you, instead of smart guys that know how to discover their opponent's weaknesses and exploit it. The moment you come with a new super build, everything will be the same, so I say, there is no point.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:41 pm

    Also people do care about who "Came up with an idea."

    Mostly if the person is a streamer or a youtuber. Whenever I use RTSR with a DGA, people will message me about how I stole Some guy's idea. I have no idea if he does that in his videos or if he doesn't, I don't know if he's done it for a long time if so or it is recent. I just know people like to attribute things to people.

    So if you do want to stroke your ego, better post it first.
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:04 am

    ChizFreak wrote:That's exactly the reason I don't do it, I'm kind of selfish when it comes to that, but, given an scenario where I beat everyone, I prefer to wait for real people to actually realize how to beat me, instead of me telling them my weaknesses, that's when a "worthy" opponent will finally rise. The only thing you get by doing that is guys that know how to beat you, instead of smart guys that know how to discover their opponent's weaknesses and exploit it.
    This is not a valid justification for not sharing information. I could write a book on how somebody should play in order to beat me. If a bad player studied that book and fought me, he would lose.

    Also, it does not really relate to not sharing techniques. Techniques are often found by incident, not because somebody was especially good at the game. A lot of smart guys played Demon's Souls for a couple years before some random schmuck attacked a guy backwards and discovered dead angle.

    Understanding maneuvers such as that is a part of what makes somebody a good player. The more widespread this knowledge is, the stronger the average player becomes. This is inarguable. Whether or not they were 'smart' enough to discover the information on their own is irrelevant.


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