Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:16 pm

    meh, ravioli step already has an indepth tutorial vid. and i haven't seen any tactics that are truly new
    besides it for 2 months, im not sure how many viable tricks there are left to discover.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Sloth9230 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:21 pm

    There's always my ""bunny flees from vicious jackals", when all else fails.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by reim0027 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:26 pm

    Knowledge may be power, but sharing that knowledge is wisdom. It builds communities, which in turn, keeps the game alive for longer.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by ChizFreak on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:27 pm

    The Letter X wrote:I agree with keeping certain things to yourself. Some things I do are so simple that I just don't want everyone else effectively using them on me. Most of my "strategies" are actually mindsets and playstyles - I only keep them in mind while fighting and wing it from there.

    I've shared some things that I consider the most important to my success on this forum, but it seems as if they go unnoticed anyway.

    The best way to beat the meta is to stay one (or more) step ahead of the meta. How else would someone stay ahead if your tactics became part of the meta?

    Yours is the best explanation of what I'm trying to say so far happy. I'm a little tricky with words it seems...


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by ChizFreak on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:30 pm

    reim0027 wrote:Knowledge may be power, but sharing that knowledge is wisdom. It builds communities, which in turn, keeps the game alive for longer.

    No, Wisdom is the capability of using your knowledge the best you can in order to achieve your goals.

    I know what you mean reim, but I'm talking about meta game here, as I said, I'm NOT saying we shouldn't share information, I'm saying that we should try to keep some tactics or strategies to ourselves or else the metagame is gonna be everyone always doing the same. See my previous post.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Cabjoy on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:34 pm

    The more we share, the quicker everyone learns and are forced to find new ****. Meaning we start scratching our heads, and probably end up finding some cool stuff and shifting the meta game. I'm all for sharing everything. It's the only way you can really improve.
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:38 pm

    I dissagree. I want to win, but stomping all over newbies would do that to. I want a challenge, sharing my knowledge breeds such challenges.

    The meta will never be so evolved that there is only 1 best tactic. Simple reason being, tactics will be devised specifically to stop that tactic, and that tactic and that tactic and so on.

    A good example is caw blade (mtg.) It was so good that its only threat was itself, so it was tweaked to fightothers of its kind, and thus it lost the tour to a blue white artifact deck designed to exploit the tweaks.

    Caw blade was the best, but it had to adapt to beat itsself and so lost to some thing else. Thats an eternal thing in any meta if any semblance of an attempt at balance has been made.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by reim0027 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:38 pm

    I'm gonna disagree with you on that one. We should all be on an equal playing field (in terms of knowledge). If everyone is the same, then there is more impetus to change and innovate to overcome it.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by RANT on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:26 am

    well i still havent told anyone that there's a way to not stagger if you miss with a regular hammer weapon and im pretty sure noone knows.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Cabjoy on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:15 am

    Oh Rant, you classy bean.
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:26 am

    reim0027 wrote:I'm gonna disagree with you on that one. We should all be on an equal playing field (in terms of knowledge). If everyone is the same, then there is more impetus to change and innovate to overcome it.
    Agreed and so here it is.

    I'm not sure if it already is somewhere on the forums, so if it is, don't be mad at me please.

    Also, I know nothing about these "tricks". I wasn't aware of this Ravioli Step thing until you mentioned it here. It's something I've occasionally encountered and done a few times myself, I just wasn't aware it has a name.

    I think it's fair to share knowledge on anything in the game, except for glitches (TWoD, spellswap, etc). That way no one can have an upper hand over his opponent by pulling something like this out.

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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:59 am

    ChizFreak wrote:Don't reveal all PvP techniques/tricks
    This is a poisonous mindset and I'm going to post tech just to spite you.

    -Ravioli stepping can be done with almost any move. It can be done out of hitstun, or in a neutral position. I call it instant-pivot or instant-tracking, because ravioli is a dumb name. To do this while in a neutral stance, press the action you want to do, then immediately point your analog stick in the direction you wish to face. This works with attacks, items, and some spells. Doesn't work with jump attacks or kicking. You can also do this from hitstun by holding your analog in the direction you want to perform your action, then pressing the button immediately after hitstun ends. Though I find waiting for the hitstun to end then doing it the regular way to be easier.

    -When you try to backstab somebody out of hitstun/guardbreak, or as they're getting up from a knockdown, an effective way for them to counter that is to instant-pivot parry you. If you hold back on your analog stick after going for the backstab, you will avoid their parry attempt. If you backstab them, holding back on your analog stick will do nothing. If they do parry you, you'll swing harmlessly away from them. If your weapon can cross-up, you'll hit them out of their parry attempt anyways.

    -If you dedicate yourself to a move and realize that you are going to get hit out of it, swap your weapon before you get hit. This will act like the swap escape, but it happens immediately after you get hit, almost entirely cancelling out your hitstun. For example, let's say I'm using my Zweihander and I'm fighting against a Claymore user. He has 76+ poise while I have 31. The Claymore user comes at me with a 2H running attack, and I do an R1 attack. As I am swinging my Zweihander, I will tap left on my D-pad. When we trade attacks, I'll cancel the stun immediately and have time to roll away. Normally when you swap escape, you do so after the first hit, and thus will get hit by at least two attacks if you're caught in a stunlock (Claymore Running R1 > R1 being the stunlock in this case). By doing this you can avoid it. It's also useful even if you're not in danger of getting stunlocked simply because it gives you frame advantage over your opponent.

    -After you come out of a roll, if you do absolutely nothing, you can delay a rolling attack by up to 7 frames, which is slightly more than one fifth of a second. This is very useful for punishing rolls if your rolling attack has a large enough hitbox.

    -Kicks stun people no matter how high their poise is, and they stun people long enough that you can unlock, walk behind the person, and BS them as their hitstun ends. While this has as many uses as you can imagine, I find it most useful as a way to get good damage off of a quick poke when using heavy weapons, or as a way to work around people who have massive poise advantages over you. Also as a way to chain people who try to use BS immunity as they're getting up from a knockdown, but I think that's already a pretty common use for it.

    -When you roll backwards or to the side while locked on, the rolling input is pressing the roll button (Circle or B, or whatever the *** it is on a keyboard). When rolling forward, however, the input is releasing the button. Because of this, rolling forward takes slightly more time than rolling back or to the side. So if you need to react to something very quickly, roll backwards or to the side. On the other hand, you can somewhat alleviate this if you really want to roll forward. A moment before you expect you'll need to roll forward, you can hold down circle (or B) while moving forward, then release it when you need to roll. If you end up not needing to roll, just wait a moment longer than normal, until your character starts sprinting, then release it. Obviously you need to be careful that if you DO end up wanting to dodge, it's not after you've started sprinting, because then you'll just stand there and get hit.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Emergence on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:33 am

    The most compelling competitive matches to watch and participate in are when both sides are equally prepared, fundamentally sound and the outcome is determined by execution and ingenuity. When the preparation or technical knowledge differ, you get lopsided results and that are barometers of knowledge but not necessarily application.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:38 am

    Emergence wrote:The most compelling competitive matches to watch and participate in are when both sides are equally prepared, fundamentally sound and the outcome is determined by execution and ingenuity. When the preparation or technical knowledge differ, you get lopsided results and that are barometers of knowledge but not necessarily application.
    As always, I have no idea what he's saying, but I know deep down inside that he's right. A man with that avatar cannot be wrong.

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    Just pulling your finger. big grin
    I completely agree with you on this E.
    If both participants are equally matched, then the fight is really more enjoyable and the deciding factor is in the hands their own abilities, where it should be.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:14 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:This is a poisonous mindset and I'm going to post tech just to spite you.

    -Ravioli stepping can be done with almost any move. It can be done out of hitstun, or in a neutral position. I call it instant-pivot or instant-tracking, because ravioli is a dumb name. To do this while in a neutral stance, press the action you want to do, then immediately point your analog stick in the direction you wish to face. This works with attacks, items, and some spells. Doesn't work with jump attacks or kicking. You can also do this from hitstun by holding your analog in the direction you want to perform your action, then pressing the button immediately after hitstun ends. Though I find waiting for the hitstun to end then doing it the regular way to be easier.

    -When you try to backstab somebody out of hitstun/guardbreak, or as they're getting up from a knockdown, an effective way for them to counter that is to instant-pivot parry you. If you hold back on your analog stick after going for the backstab, you will avoid their parry attempt. If you backstab them, holding back on your analog stick will do nothing. If they do parry you, you'll swing harmlessly away from them. If your weapon can cross-up, you'll hit them out of their parry attempt anyways.

    -If you dedicate yourself to a move and realize that you are going to get hit out of it, swap your weapon before you get hit. This will act like the swap escape, but it happens immediately after you get hit, almost entirely cancelling out your hitstun. For example, let's say I'm using my Zweihander and I'm fighting against a Claymore user. He has 76+ poise while I have 31. The Claymore user comes at me with a 2H running attack, and I do an R1 attack. As I am swinging my Zweihander, I will tap left on my D-pad. When we trade attacks, I'll cancel the stun immediately and have time to roll away. Normally when you swap escape, you do so after the first hit, and thus will get hit by at least two attacks if you're caught in a stunlock (Claymore Running R1 > R1 being the stunlock in this case). By doing this you can avoid it. It's also useful even if you're not in danger of getting stunlocked simply because it gives you frame advantage over your opponent.

    -After you come out of a roll, if you do absolutely nothing, you can delay a rolling attack by up to 7 frames, which is slightly more than one fifth of a second. This is very useful for punishing rolls if your rolling attack has a large enough hitbox.

    -Kicks stun people no matter how high their poise is, and they stun people long enough that you can unlock, walk behind the person, and BS them as their hitstun ends. While this has as many uses as you can imagine, I find it most useful as a way to get good damage off of a quick poke when using heavy weapons, or as a way to work around people who have massive poise advantages over you. Also as a way to chain people who try to use BS immunity as they're getting up from a knockdown, but I think that's already a pretty common use for it.

    -When you roll backwards or to the side while locked on, the rolling input is pressing the roll button (Circle or B, or whatever the *** it is on a keyboard). When rolling forward, however, the input is releasing the button. Because of this, rolling forward takes slightly more time than rolling back or to the side. So if you need to react to something very quickly, roll backwards or to the side. On the other hand, you can somewhat alleviate this if you really want to roll forward. A moment before you expect you'll need to roll forward, you can hold down circle (or B) while moving forward, then release it when you need to roll. If you end up not needing to roll, just wait a moment longer than normal, until your character starts sprinting, then release it. Obviously you need to be careful that if you DO end up wanting to dodge, it's not after you've started sprinting, because then you'll just stand there and get hit.

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand /thread.....thank you saint.

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    Waaaaait a minute....I see what you did there..... -_-
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:33 pm

    I wonder if people ever realized you can toggle out of a fall, meaning you can do a plunging attack, then toggle out of it into a kick and then another attack.
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by The Letter X on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:25 pm

    Would you guys consider sharing your tactics with rival sports teams or enemies at war?

    I think the problem is that we see our opponents differently. I basically see everyone outside of my closest group of online friends as potential enemies. I want my friends/comrades to know every secret I have so we can prosper, but I'd rather not share it with anyone else.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by AzureTear on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:51 pm

    The Letter X wrote:Would you guys consider sharing your tactics with rival sports teams or enemies at war?

    I think the problem is that we see our opponents differently. I basically see everyone outside of my closest group of online friends as potential enemies. I want my friends/comrades to know every secret I have so we can prosper, but I'd rather not share it with anyone else.

    You know some people fight pvp for fun. We don't all necessarily see everyone as a opponent we HAVE to win against at all cost like enemies in a war and fan fueled competitions like professional sports. Following that logic I would not share info AND spam cheap tactics to win. Since I mean they are enemies of war we can't let them have any advantage over us can we?

    Purposefully encouraging withholding information all for the sake of winning and villin zing your opponent in pvp as a enemy of war is ridiculous. Of course unless they are the type that are ganking and spamming cheap tactics and harming the community, and I think withholding information just for "winning" is as harmful and petty as ganking.
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by The Letter X on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:58 pm

    AzureTear wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:Would you guys consider sharing your tactics with rival sports teams or enemies at war?

    I think the problem is that we see our opponents differently. I basically see everyone outside of my closest group of online friends as potential enemies. I want my friends/comrades to know every secret I have so we can prosper, but I'd rather not share it with anyone else.

    You know some people fight pvp for fun. We don't all necessarily see everyone as a opponent we HAVE to win against at all cost like enemies in a war and fan fueled competitions like professional sports. Following that logic I would not share info AND spam cheap tactics to win. Since I mean they are enemies of war we can't let them have any advantage over us can we?

    Purposefully encouraging withholding information all for the sake of winning and villin zing your opponent in pvp as a enemy of war is ridiculous. Of course unless they are the type that are ganking and spamming cheap tactics and harming the community, and I think withholding information just for "winning" is as harmful and petty as ganking.

    I PvP for fun as well. There is the argument that I withhold information because I feel the "need" to win, but I prevent myself from using common tools in Dark Souls combat. If I felt the need to win, I'd play as dirty as possible, use every tool available, and withhold every single bit of information I find even from my friends.

    Seeing people differently is just the way things are, and there is nothing wrong with that.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:01 pm

    The sharing of knowledge is one way to promote progression. Sharing one exploit can lead to other exploits that may not have been discovered had said exploit not been exploited.

    I don't see how withholding advanced tactics is beneficial to the community in any way. Besides, the little "secrets" will come out sooner or later. Someone somewhere is discovering some broken mechanic in some game right now as we speak.

    I'm against this idea in its entirety...just no.
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:04 pm

    Plus if you post it first, then you get to go "I thought of it first!"

    If anyone claims they were using it before but kept it a secret, you get to stick your tongue out and go "Na na na na, I was the first person to post it. So there is no evidence you ever thought of it. Personally, I think you're just copying my idea."

    It's like some of you don't even know how to stroke your ego.
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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by The Letter X on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:18 pm

    Tolvo wrote:It's like some of you don't even know how to stroke your ego.

    That's something I am very scared of, whether I do it or someone else does. Pride comes before the fall. I know you're saying that jokingly, though. silly

    And I admit that it really sucks being raised with the mindset that everyone else is competition. Not being able to communicate normally with your friends - best friends - because they were seen as competìtìon ìn sports or school is horrible.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Emergence on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:25 pm

    The Letter X wrote:Would you guys consider sharing your tactics with rival sports teams or enemies at war?

    I think the problem is that we see our opponents differently. I basically see everyone outside of my closest group of online friends as potential enemies. I want my friends/comrades to know every secret I have so we can prosper, but I'd rather not share it with anyone else.

    Athletes swap tips all the time. Not during the heat of competition but certainly before and after. They just don't tell people when and where they use those tactics. In any sport whenever a loophole or exploit is discovered it spreads like fire. To use the NFL as an example, every single offensive lineman worth his salt knows exactly how to use pad level to conceal holding at the point of attack, and this info hasn't been disseminated simply via film study. In any fraternal organization of competition people swap tips, because often times people who compete are placed in positions of teamwork as well.

    War is different. In war lives are at stake. Nothing but war can ever be compared to war.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by The Letter X on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:32 pm

    Emergence wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:Would you guys consider sharing your tactics with rival sports teams or enemies at war?

    I think the problem is that we see our opponents differently. I basically see everyone outside of my closest group of online friends as potential enemies. I want my friends/comrades to know every secret I have so we can prosper, but I'd rather not share it with anyone else.

    Athletes swap tips all the time. Not during the heat of competition but certainly before and after. They just don't tell people when and where they use those tactics. In any sport whenever a loophole or exploit is discovered it spreads like fire. To use the NFL as an example, every single offensive lineman worth his salt knows exactly how to use pad level to conceal holding at the point of attack, and this info hasn't been disseminated simply via film study. In any fraternal organization of competition people swap tips, because often times people who compete are placed in positions of teamwork as well.

    War is different. In war lives are at stake. Nothing but war can ever be compared to war.

    I am of the bias of playing certain positions in sports like a quarterback or pitcher. It is of course in your interest to share things with fellow QB's or pitchers on your team, and even those who have potential to be on your team at a later point in time. I personally hate the mindset of withholding info from everyone else, but still follow it - hence my previous post.


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    Re: Knowledge is Power, Guard it well.

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:45 pm

    The Letter X wrote:...Would you guys consider sharing your tactics with rival sports teams or enemies at war?...


    Emergence wrote:...War is different. In war lives are at stake. Nothing but war can ever be compared to war...

    The day warfare becomes akin to sports relative to competition, is the day we all stick our heads in the sand and kiss our ***es good-bye.

    On a brighter note, I do appreciate the need to have an edge. I think in this case however, it should be skill and skill alone that gives you an edge.

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