Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

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    Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:33 pm

    I think BS's suck because of lag.
    That said I think they should change the way the BS is done.
    I think it should be a 2 part attack.
    The first part is grabbing the opponents shoulder,
    and the second part would be the BS itself.
    The better your timing is the faster it happens and the harder it is for the one getting BS to shake you off while his hand is grabbing your shoulder. That would be another aspect of it, the one getting BS can shake off the opponent if there to slow between the grab and the BS.
    The grab would explain the "locking in place" and it having to parts to pull off allows for the ability to escape from it.
    I think this would help solve the problem of the BS.
    What do you all think of this idea?


    Last edited by Oh_the_Humanity on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Odinbear on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:11 am

    Easier to just not put yourself in the position to get BS'd. My 2 pennies


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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:44 pm

    I think it could be done in a way that works quite well.
    At least the way I'm seeing it in my mind looks good.


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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:43 pm

    Odinbear wrote:Easier to just not put yourself in the position to get BS'd. My 2 pennies

    I apologize, I mean you no offense, but I disagree with this post in every way imaginable.

    I like your idea humanity. After all backstabs are obviously broke, obviously take away from some game experiences, and collectively describing ideas regarding an alternative method and/or a fix to the current mechanic is progressive and necessary for the advancement of the souls series unique combat system.

    I do not think the fix for the backstab mechanic is to merely avoid them. I think having a way to escape the backstab animation is one way to deal with lag. Which is something we will have to deal with whether DkS2 comes out for the ps3 or ps4.

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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by psychichobo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:45 pm

    Odinbear wrote:Easier to just not put yourself in the position to get BS'd. My 2 pennies

    Lag doesn't care what position you're in. It's liberal like that.
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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:50 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    Odinbear wrote:Easier to just not put yourself in the position to get BS'd. My 2 pennies

    I apologize, I mean you no offense, but I disagree with this post in every way imaginable.

    I like your idea humanity. After all backstabs are obviously broke, obviously take away from some game experiences, and collectively describing ideas regarding an alternative method and/or a fix to the current mechanic is progressive and necessary for the advancement of the souls series unique combat system.

    I do not think the fix for the backstab mechanic is to merely avoid them. I think having a way to escape the backstab animation is one way to deal with lag. Which is something we will have to deal with whether DkS2 comes out for the ps3 or ps4.

    Yeah I though that was a well thought out post too. Not!
    That's right, I used it.
    I was trying to come up with a way that keeps BS, but changes the way there done to give the one who's getting BS'd a chance to escape.
    My idea is of course rough, thats why Im posting it here.


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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:41 pm

    Not only is this a good idea, but its probably the best idea considering the p2p system.

    We will not get dedicated servers, they cannot reduce the lag, and reducing the size of the hitbox will only make ALL backstabs more difficult. Imo, that is unnecessary. All backstabs, with the exception of the infamous "tele-stab" (the backstab where you sucked in so to speak), are fine. Roll stabs could use a fraction of a second delay imo though.

    The only way they could fix tele-stabs without this 2 part system would be to provide some sort of immunity before you rolled. The only thing I can think of is granting a 1/4-1/2 second delay when you push block.

    Cons:

    People would rapid fire block. I personally wouldn't find this as a problem because you can't do it forever, and eventually have to "take a shot".

    This biggest fear I have is if they were to screw up the code when they tried to implement it. Can you imagine random 1/4-1/2 second immunity to backstabs because the code was sub-par?!?!?! Or what if in order for it to work properly the desired time allowed for immunity was 1/16 of a second? I just don't know if this would even work. Its just an idea that sounds good on paper...like backstabs.

    However, the only con with the 2 part system in my opinion is.....a backstabber pro would have to practice something else???? I know lag would mess with the "breakout" move itself, but as long as it was DOABLE, I'd be okay with it.

    If I knew I was going to be able to escape 1 out of 3, or 1 out of 5 backstabs...my playstyle would change enough to not be dramatic, but enough for it to matter.

    Mid-rollers would get the boost they needed too imo.



    Last edited by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammer/structure)
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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by ChizFreak on Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:02 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    Odinbear wrote:Easier to just not put yourself in the position to get BS'd. My 2 pennies

    I apologize, I mean you no offense, but I disagree with this post in every way imaginable.

    I like your idea humanity. After all backstabs are obviously broke, obviously take away from some game experiences, and collectively describing ideas regarding an alternative method and/or a fix to the current mechanic is progressive and necessary for the advancement of the souls series unique combat system.

    I do not think the fix for the backstab mechanic is to merely avoid them. I think having a way to escape the backstab animation is one way to deal with lag. Which is something we will have to deal with whether DkS2 comes out for the ps3 or ps4.

    The first thing you have to consider before thinking about BS fixes is that lag is not a modifier. It's annoying, yes, but it's not the reason why BS is broken. Lag is situational. You must first ask yourself this question: "If lag didn't exist at all, what would be the problem with Backstabs?" That's when you're getting into real progress. Lag can never be considered when thinking about changes, because lag is a secondary problem, a nuisance, that shouldn't exist, and alters the game in ways the developers can't control or wish, that's because efforts should go to remove lag, not to modify game mechanics in order to lag not making BS bad.

    That said, I think the only problem with BS are damage modifiers, big weapons shouldn't do so big critical damage, gameplay wise, it makes some light weapons that only serve for criticals be kind of useless, and big weapons do big damage with standard attacks and the same/more damage than light critical weapons in backstabs.

    That way, everyone could still backstab, though big weapons wouldn't do much damage.

    There have been several threads about this, the most useful being the last one when we achieved conclusions on what were the best ways to "fix" backstabs. I don't feel like saying all the fixes we came up back then, so search for it.

    I'm tired of these threads, backstabs are easy to avoid, and with the common slight lag most of the time you get BSed when you shouldn't according to your TV (your POV), the backstab deals zero damage. Lag doesn't matter. The actual problem is that backstabing with big weapons deals too much damage making light high critical weapons useless, and thus unbalacing the game. It's not OP (as Backstabs are easy to avoid), but it's not right either.


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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:42 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    Odinbear wrote:Easier to just not put yourself in the position to get BS'd. My 2 pennies

    I apologize, I mean you no offense, but I disagree with this post in every way imaginable.

    I like your idea humanity. After all backstabs are obviously broke, obviously take away from some game experiences, and collectively describing ideas regarding an alternative method and/or a fix to the current mechanic is progressive and necessary for the advancement of the souls series unique combat system.

    I do not think the fix for the backstab mechanic is to merely avoid them. I think having a way to escape the backstab animation is one way to deal with lag. Which is something we will have to deal with whether DkS2 comes out for the ps3 or ps4.

    The first thing you have to consider before thinking about BS fixes is that lag is not a modifier. It's annoying, yes, but it's not the reason why BS is broken. Lag is situational. You must first ask yourself this question: "If lag didn't exist at all, what would be the problem with Backstabs?" That's when you're getting into real progress. Lag can never be considered when thinking about changes, because lag is a secondary problem, a nuisance, that shouldn't exist, and alters the game in ways the developers can't control or wish, that's because efforts should go to remove lag, not to modify game mechanics in order to lag not making BS bad.

    That said, I think the only problem with BS are damage modifiers, big weapons shouldn't do so big critical damage, gameplay wise, it makes some light weapons that only serve for criticals be kind of useless, and big weapons do big damage with standard attacks and the same/more damage than light critical weapons in backstabs.

    That way, everyone could still backstab, though big weapons wouldn't do much damage.

    There have been several threads about this, the most useful being the last one when we achieved conclusions on what were the best ways to "fix" backstabs. I don't feel like saying all the fixes we came up back then, so search for it.

    I'm tired of these threads, backstabs are easy to avoid, and with the common slight lag most of the time you get BSed when you shouldn't according to your TV (your POV), the backstab deals zero damage. Lag doesn't matter. The actual problem is that backstabing with big weapons deals too much damage making light high critical weapons useless, and thus unbalacing the game. It's not OP (as Backstabs are easy to avoid), but it's not right either.

    I understand lag is not a modifier, and can't quite figure out why you would assume I thought it was. Any yes, lag is the only reason backstabs are broken. But I would agree with your point about the modifiers on strength weapons.

    Lag may be situational, but it can be averaged and compensated for as well as patched in some cases. Extreme lag usually won't be fixed in some online games because either the games base gave up, or it was so broke that patching would be immpossible.

    I've already asked myself that question, my conclusion:
    They are fine without tele-stabs.

    I dont want to search for anything atm. The thread is here and I have every right to respond to it. If you are tired of talking about this issue I would suggest you might read other threads. I'm sorry if you feel this has been beating a horse to death, but I dont. I have always found this conversation interesting, even before October 2011.

    So in conclusion, if FROM was to implement a fix for backstabs...I would choose this. I like the idea of escaping them without damage cancels.

    I've been apart of this conversation in other forums since the "p2p vs dedicated servers" debacle died down and have always enjoyed it.

    Tolvo said it best, "through debate/arguements/differences comes progression"....or something like that.

    And for the record: I've never said backstabs were "op", only that they can be improved upon.




    Last edited by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:07 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : grammer/structure)
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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by ChizFreak on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:07 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    Odinbear wrote:Easier to just not put yourself in the position to get BS'd. My 2 pennies

    I apologize, I mean you no offense, but I disagree with this post in every way imaginable.

    I like your idea humanity. After all backstabs are obviously broke, obviously take away from some game experiences, and collectively describing ideas regarding an alternative method and/or a fix to the current mechanic is progressive and necessary for the advancement of the souls series unique combat system.

    I do not think the fix for the backstab mechanic is to merely avoid them. I think having a way to escape the backstab animation is one way to deal with lag. Which is something we will have to deal with whether DkS2 comes out for the ps3 or ps4.

    The first thing you have to consider before thinking about BS fixes is that lag is not a modifier. It's annoying, yes, but it's not the reason why BS is broken. Lag is situational. You must first ask yourself this question: "If lag didn't exist at all, what would be the problem with Backstabs?" That's when you're getting into real progress. Lag can never be considered when thinking about changes, because lag is a secondary problem, a nuisance, that shouldn't exist, and alters the game in ways the developers can't control or wish, that's because efforts should go to remove lag, not to modify game mechanics in order to lag not making BS bad.

    That said, I think the only problem with BS are damage modifiers, big weapons shouldn't do so big critical damage, gameplay wise, it makes some light weapons that only serve for criticals be kind of useless, and big weapons do big damage with standard attacks and the same/more damage than light critical weapons in backstabs.

    That way, everyone could still backstab, though big weapons wouldn't do much damage.

    There have been several threads about this, the most useful being the last one when we achieved conclusions on what were the best ways to "fix" backstabs. I don't feel like saying all the fixes we came up back then, so search for it.

    I'm tired of these threads, backstabs are easy to avoid, and with the common slight lag most of the time you get BSed when you shouldn't according to your TV (your POV), the backstab deals zero damage. Lag doesn't matter. The actual problem is that backstabing with big weapons deals too much damage making light high critical weapons useless, and thus unbalacing the game. It's not OP (as Backstabs are easy to avoid), but it's not right either.

    I understand lag is not a modifier, and can't quite figure out why you would assume I thought it was. Any yes, lag is the only reason backstabs are broken. But I would agree with your point about the modifiers on strength weapons.

    Lag may be situational, but it can be averaged and compensated for as well as patched in some cases. Extreme lag usually won't be fixed in some online games because either the games base gave up, or it was so broke that patching would be immpossible.

    I've already asked myself that question, my conclusion:
    They are fine without tele-stabs.

    I dont want to search for anything. The thread is here and I have every right to respond to it. If you are tired of talking about this issue I would suggest you might read other threads. I'm sorry if you feel this has been beating a horse to death, but I dont. I have always found this conversation interesting, even before October 2011.

    So in conclusion, if FROM was to implement a fix for backstabs...I would choose this. I like the idea of escaping them without damage cancels.

    I've been apart of this conversation in other forums since the "p2p vs dedicated servers" debacle died down and always enjoyed it.

    Tolvo said it best, "through debate/arguements/differences comes progression"....or something like that.

    And for the record: I've never said backstabs were "op", only that they can be improved on.



    If you think the only thing wrong with backstabs is how lag affects them (lag generates tele-stabs) then we have nothing more to talk about this subject.

    PS: You contradicted yourself, you said you agree lag is not a modifier, yet you say that without lag backstabs are fine, thus, there is nothing wrong with backstabs in your opinion besides lag. Besides that, you said backstabs are clearly broken, that leads to believe you think lag is a modifier.


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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:14 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    Odinbear wrote:Easier to just not put yourself in the position to get BS'd. My 2 pennies

    I apologize, I mean you no offense, but I disagree with this post in every way imaginable.

    I like your idea humanity. After all backstabs are obviously broke, obviously take away from some game experiences, and collectively describing ideas regarding an alternative method and/or a fix to the current mechanic is progressive and necessary for the advancement of the souls series unique combat system.

    I do not think the fix for the backstab mechanic is to merely avoid them. I think having a way to escape the backstab animation is one way to deal with lag. Which is something we will have to deal with whether DkS2 comes out for the ps3 or ps4.

    The first thing you have to consider before thinking about BS fixes is that lag is not a modifier. It's annoying, yes, but it's not the reason why BS is broken. Lag is situational. You must first ask yourself this question: "If lag didn't exist at all, what would be the problem with Backstabs?" That's when you're getting into real progress. Lag can never be considered when thinking about changes, because lag is a secondary problem, a nuisance, that shouldn't exist, and alters the game in ways the developers can't control or wish, that's because efforts should go to remove lag, not to modify game mechanics in order to lag not making BS bad.

    That said, I think the only problem with BS are damage modifiers, big weapons shouldn't do so big critical damage, gameplay wise, it makes some light weapons that only serve for criticals be kind of useless, and big weapons do big damage with standard attacks and the same/more damage than light critical weapons in backstabs.

    That way, everyone could still backstab, though big weapons wouldn't do much damage.

    There have been several threads about this, the most useful being the last one when we achieved conclusions on what were the best ways to "fix" backstabs. I don't feel like saying all the fixes we came up back then, so search for it.

    I'm tired of these threads, backstabs are easy to avoid, and with the common slight lag most of the time you get BSed when you shouldn't according to your TV (your POV), the backstab deals zero damage. Lag doesn't matter. The actual problem is that backstabing with big weapons deals too much damage making light high critical weapons useless, and thus unbalacing the game. It's not OP (as Backstabs are easy to avoid), but it's not right either.

    I understand lag is not a modifier, and can't quite figure out why you would assume I thought it was. Any yes, lag is the only reason backstabs are broken. But I would agree with your point about the modifiers on strength weapons.

    Lag may be situational, but it can be averaged and compensated for as well as patched in some cases. Extreme lag usually won't be fixed in some online games because either the games base gave up, or it was so broke that patching would be immpossible.

    I've already asked myself that question, my conclusion:
    They are fine without tele-stabs.

    I dont want to search for anything. The thread is here and I have every right to respond to it. If you are tired of talking about this issue I would suggest you might read other threads. I'm sorry if you feel this has been beating a horse to death, but I dont. I have always found this conversation interesting, even before October 2011.

    So in conclusion, if FROM was to implement a fix for backstabs...I would choose this. I like the idea of escaping them without damage cancels.

    I've been apart of this conversation in other forums since the "p2p vs dedicated servers" debacle died down and always enjoyed it.

    Tolvo said it best, "through debate/arguements/differences comes progression"....or something like that.

    And for the record: I've never said backstabs were "op", only that they can be improved on.



    If you think the only thing wrong with backstabs is how lag affects them (lag generates tele-stabs) then we have nothing more to talk about this subject.

    PS: You contradicted yourself, you said you agree lag is not a modifier, yet you say that without lag backstabs are fine, thus, there is nothing wrong with backstabs in your opinion besides lag. Besides that, you said backstabs are clearly broken, that leads to believe you think lag is a modifier.

    You're right, I clearly didn't understand how you were using the word modifier. I don't know why, it just didn't register. I apologize for that. Lag is a modifier.

    But yes, I still believe the only problem worth investing time in (if FROM were to actually do so) would be the problem with tele-stabs. Are there other things that could be improved upon? Sure, but not as important (imo) as the tele-stab epidemic.
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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by ChizFreak on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:32 pm

    Spoiler:
    Animaaal wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    Odinbear wrote:Easier to just not put yourself in the position to get BS'd. My 2 pennies

    I apologize, I mean you no offense, but I disagree with this post in every way imaginable.

    I like your idea humanity. After all backstabs are obviously broke, obviously take away from some game experiences, and collectively describing ideas regarding an alternative method and/or a fix to the current mechanic is progressive and necessary for the advancement of the souls series unique combat system.

    I do not think the fix for the backstab mechanic is to merely avoid them. I think having a way to escape the backstab animation is one way to deal with lag. Which is something we will have to deal with whether DkS2 comes out for the ps3 or ps4.

    The first thing you have to consider before thinking about BS fixes is that lag is not a modifier. It's annoying, yes, but it's not the reason why BS is broken. Lag is situational. You must first ask yourself this question: "If lag didn't exist at all, what would be the problem with Backstabs?" That's when you're getting into real progress. Lag can never be considered when thinking about changes, because lag is a secondary problem, a nuisance, that shouldn't exist, and alters the game in ways the developers can't control or wish, that's because efforts should go to remove lag, not to modify game mechanics in order to lag not making BS bad.

    That said, I think the only problem with BS are damage modifiers, big weapons shouldn't do so big critical damage, gameplay wise, it makes some light weapons that only serve for criticals be kind of useless, and big weapons do big damage with standard attacks and the same/more damage than light critical weapons in backstabs.

    That way, everyone could still backstab, though big weapons wouldn't do much damage.

    There have been several threads about this, the most useful being the last one when we achieved conclusions on what were the best ways to "fix" backstabs. I don't feel like saying all the fixes we came up back then, so search for it.

    I'm tired of these threads, backstabs are easy to avoid, and with the common slight lag most of the time you get BSed when you shouldn't according to your TV (your POV), the backstab deals zero damage. Lag doesn't matter. The actual problem is that backstabing with big weapons deals too much damage making light high critical weapons useless, and thus unbalacing the game. It's not OP (as Backstabs are easy to avoid), but it's not right either.

    I understand lag is not a modifier, and can't quite figure out why you would assume I thought it was. Any yes, lag is the only reason backstabs are broken. But I would agree with your point about the modifiers on strength weapons.

    Lag may be situational, but it can be averaged and compensated for as well as patched in some cases. Extreme lag usually won't be fixed in some online games because either the games base gave up, or it was so broke that patching would be immpossible.

    I've already asked myself that question, my conclusion:
    They are fine without tele-stabs.

    I dont want to search for anything. The thread is here and I have every right to respond to it. If you are tired of talking about this issue I would suggest you might read other threads. I'm sorry if you feel this has been beating a horse to death, but I dont. I have always found this conversation interesting, even before October 2011.

    So in conclusion, if FROM was to implement a fix for backstabs...I would choose this. I like the idea of escaping them without damage cancels.

    I've been apart of this conversation in other forums since the "p2p vs dedicated servers" debacle died down and always enjoyed it.

    Tolvo said it best, "through debate/arguements/differences comes progression"....or something like that.

    And for the record: I've never said backstabs were "op", only that they can be improved on.



    If you think the only thing wrong with backstabs is how lag affects them (lag generates tele-stabs) then we have nothing more to talk about this subject.

    PS: You contradicted yourself, you said you agree lag is not a modifier, yet you say that without lag backstabs are fine, thus, there is nothing wrong with backstabs in your opinion besides lag. Besides that, you said backstabs are clearly broken, that leads to believe you think lag is a modifier.

    You're right, I clearly didn't understand how you were using the word modifier. I don't know why, it just didn't register. I apologize for that. Lag is a modifier.

    But yes, I still believe the only problem worth investing time in (if FROM were to actually do so) would be the problem with tele-stabs. Are there other things that could be improved upon? Sure, but not as important (imo) as the tele-stab epidemic.

    I don't know about you, but tele-stabs are very strange for me. Lagstabs are a whole other thing, you know, just after a second you dodge the guy he suddenly backstabs you for zero damage; but tele-stabs, the backstab when you're far and the guy suddenly teleports behind you from meters away and does an actually damaging backstab, that's something that happened very few times for me. And I'm from Argentina lol, so anyone in the "popular" countries (like USA, or UK) should get a far better connection.

    Anyway remember that DkS II will have region servers, we don't know if they will be locked (meaning we can't choose in which one we play) though. So that will surely help a bit with lag as we can choose with people from where we play.


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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:45 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:...I don't know about you, but tele-stabs are very strange for me. Lagstabs are a whole other thing, you know, just after a second you dodge the guy he suddenly backstabs you for zero damage; but tele-stabs, the backstab when you're far and the guy suddenly teleports behind you from meters away and does an actually damaging backstab, that's something that happened very few times for me. And I'm from Argentina lol, so anyone in the "popular" countries (like USA, or UK) should get a far better connection.

    Anyway remember that DkS II will have region servers, we don't know if they will be locked (meaning we can't choose in which one we play) though. So that will surely help a bit with lag as we can choose with people from where we play....

    Ya know what Chiz?...it doesn't really matter because I contradicted myself in my previous post again any ^%$#ing ways.

    I've been up for 36 hours, my kids got the flu, and my posts are starting to become incoherent.

    So before I become a problem and force you regulars to monitor the entire forum making sure Animaaal doesn't spread misinformation, I'll just say this:

    Given all the possible ideas to make backstabs better than they are, the "breakout" idea is by far my favorite, has been for a very long time. And I completely agree that the current backstab system in no way breaks the game.

    @forum...Iz gonna logz out now... Sleep
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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:42 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:
    The first thing you have to consider before thinking about BS fixes is that lag is not a modifier. It's annoying, yes, but it's not the reason why BS is broken.

    ^IMO, Yes it is the one and only reason it needs to be addressed.
    No lag = no tele-stabs, no phantom stabs, no getting sucked across the screen.


    Lag is situational. You must first ask yourself this question: "If lag didn't exist at all, what would be the problem with Backstabs?"

    ^Nothing

    That's when you're getting into real progress. Lag can never be considered when thinking about changes, because lag is a secondary problem, a nuisance, that shouldn't exist, and alters the game in ways the developers can't control or wish, that's because efforts should go to remove lag, not to modify game mechanics in order to lag not making BS bad.

    ^I agree that lag cant be considered when creating a fix for BS because you cant remove lag. So thats why where brainstorming ideas to see what people come up with.

    That said, I think the only problem with BS are damage modifiers, big weapons shouldn't do so big critical damage, gameplay wise, it makes some light weapons that only serve for criticals be kind of useless, and big weapons do big damage with standard attacks and the same/more damage than light critical weapons in backstabs.

    ^Im not sure I completely get what your saying here. It only makes sense for bigger weapons to do bigger damage, and smaller ones to do less. But thats not true in every case. The bandit knife chaos +5 with 10 humanity does somewhere around 900 damage or something like that, cant quite remember at the moment. If the great club +15 didnt absolutely crush someone in a backstab then that wouldn't make any sense.


    That way, everyone could still backstab, though big weapons wouldn't do much damage.

    ^That would be stupid. IMO

    There have been several threads about this, the most useful being the last one when we achieved conclusions on what were the best ways to "fix" backstabs. I don't feel like saying all the fixes we came up back then, so search for it.

    I'm tired of these threads, backstabs are easy to avoid, and with the common slight lag most of the time you get BSed when you shouldn't according to your TV (your POV), the backstab deals zero damage.

    ^I've never encountered a BS that dealt zero damage

    Lag doesn't matter. The actual problem is that backstabing with big weapons deals too much damage making light high critical weapons useless, and thus unbalacing the game. It's not OP (as Backstabs are easy to avoid), but it's not right either.

    ^??? Lag does matter obviously. Backstabs are not easy to avoid because of lag. If there were no lag, then yes, they would be easy to avoid.
    But because you can get tele-stabbed they can be impossible to escape sometimes.



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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by ChizFreak on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:50 pm

    Spoiler:
    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    The first thing you have to consider before thinking about BS fixes is that lag is not a modifier. It's annoying, yes, but it's not the reason why BS is broken.

    ^IMO, Yes it is the one and only reason it needs to be addressed.
    No lag = no tele-stabs, no phantom stabs, no getting sucked across the screen.


    Lag is situational. You must first ask yourself this question: "If lag didn't exist at all, what would be the problem with Backstabs?"

    ^Nothing

    That's when you're getting into real progress. Lag can never be considered when thinking about changes, because lag is a secondary problem, a nuisance, that shouldn't exist, and alters the game in ways the developers can't control or wish, that's because efforts should go to remove lag, not to modify game mechanics in order to lag not making BS bad.

    ^I agree that lag cant be considered when creating a fix for BS because you cant remove lag. So thats why where brainstorming ideas to see what people come up with.

    That said, I think the only problem with BS are damage modifiers, big weapons shouldn't do so big critical damage, gameplay wise, it makes some light weapons that only serve for criticals be kind of useless, and big weapons do big damage with standard attacks and the same/more damage than light critical weapons in backstabs.

    ^Im not sure I completely get what your saying here. It only makes sense for bigger weapons to do bigger damage, and smaller ones to do less. But thats not true in every case. The bandit knife chaos +5 with 10 humanity does somewhere around 900 damage or something like that, cant quite remember at the moment. If the great club +15 didnt absolutely crush someone in a backstab then that wouldn't make any sense.


    That way, everyone could still backstab, though big weapons wouldn't do much damage.

    ^That would be stupid. IMO

    There have been several threads about this, the most useful being the last one when we achieved conclusions on what were the best ways to "fix" backstabs. I don't feel like saying all the fixes we came up back then, so search for it.

    I'm tired of these threads, backstabs are easy to avoid, and with the common slight lag most of the time you get BSed when you shouldn't according to your TV (your POV), the backstab deals zero damage.

    ^I've never encountered a BS that dealt zero damage

    Lag doesn't matter. The actual problem is that backstabing with big weapons deals too much damage making light high critical weapons useless, and thus unbalacing the game. It's not OP (as Backstabs are easy to avoid), but it's not right either.

    ^??? Lag does matter obviously. Backstabs are not easy to avoid because of lag. If there were no lag, then yes, they would be easy to avoid.
    But because you can get tele-stabbed they can be impossible to escape sometimes.


    It's bad to modify the game only because of lag. Lag shouldn't exist, and developers make the game supposing lag doesn't exist, and it's fine that way. It's an outside problem, not from the game itself.

    And if you didn't ever encountered backstabs doing zero damage to you or yourself doing it, then you haven't played enough Dark Souls PvP.


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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:52 pm

    I guess I never encountered a 0 damage BS because I honestly never use BS's unless there just wide open, and I've become quite good at dodging them. If it's that common I'm sure it's happened to me and I just didn't see it somehow because on my PC version alone I've got close to 200 hours logged and I had way more than that on my PS3 and probably a little more than a 3rd of that was PVP.
    As for lag. If they want to fix the "problem" then they will have to change the game to account for lag which I don't know if it's possible to just magically fix it. Either we deal with what we've got now, or come up with a new way of doing the BS that can work with laggy conditions.


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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:19 am

    Animaaal wrote:...You're right, I clearly didn't understand how you were using the word modifier. I don't know why, it just didn't register. I apologize for that. Lag is a modifier...

    I said this in post #11. The underlined is a typo. Lag is not a modifier. This is what it is, just like ChizFreak said earlier (most common definition):

    “A person or thing that makes partial or minor changes to something.”

    If anyone was confused about that I apologize. I thought I should clear it up. I wuz seepy. zzz.zz.z….

    Backstabs do not under any circumstances change the coding of the backstab mechanic in even a minor way.

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:...… So thats why where brainstorming ideas to see what people come up with....

    ^^shortened
    I know it bro. But this idea has been around for awhile, and its by far best case scenario if you ask me. If you came up with it on your own accord without hearing it or reading it somewhere, then congradulations!!!...We haaaaaaaaaave a winnnnnnerr!!!...imo. Seriously, its thinking outside the box or "hitbox" rather. Good job.

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:...^That would be stupid. IMO...

    ^^Is in regards to large weapons backstab damage.
    I think its not stupid. My only argument is they already swing slow…and if backstabs are improved upon (“improved upon how Animaaal???”)…they might not need it. If you could escape a backstab 15-30% of the time, I’d say it all evens out , and all kinds a sh!t starts breakin loose. Duel

    I said along the lines earlier that lag can be compensated for, and I didn’t mean “your fighting style in Dark Souls”. Heck if anyone wants to see lag go play DCUO man. :affraid: That game had craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy lag. Granted it was an MMO (a rather small one), but it really shows you what the ps3 is capable of.

    They were patching and repatching that game nonstop. Sometimes lag would be so bad you’d say,
    “Screw it I’ve got DC’d for the fifth time in an hour, and the only time I didn’t I was teleporting through frekin buildings…*turns off system and checks forum for update*

    Point I’m trying to make is this. You would see updates in the forum "with regards to lag problems...stay tuned" and notice them an hour later when you could play the game. And no, I'm not comparing games...I'm eluding to this:

    *with regards to Dark Souls 2*

    Do we really think Namco is gonna have as good of servers and customer service (which includes server maintenance) as Atlus? I doubt it. I’m not trying to bash Namco or whatever subsidiary they might use for the server system in DkS2, but I think we might have to learn how to continue the legacy of the soul series with regular, average, mundane servers. We will have lag, oh make nooooooooooo mistake, it is lag we shall have! Muwhahahahahaaaaaa… Evil Fex but it’ll be better. Joy

    Sooooooooooo begs the question/s..."Would a breakout move be effective in Dark Souls? If Dark Souls 2 is indeed going to have a "fix", then wouldn't be wise to use Dark Souls as a catalyst? If we all (by all I mean overwhelmingly) think that backstabs can be improved upon, then what would one of those methods be?...

    ...well...I say this is one.("this" being humanity's 2 part backstab)
    I have an idea that could work...but I think its a train wreck, a wolf in sheeps clothing lol. This one "idea" would have to be patched 2 or 3 timed I'd imagine. But it would be easy, from FROM's standpoint.

    I think we should think about the possibility of more dlc and a couple patches. I also think we should start talking about them now. Get the old ideas back out from collecting dust and start making some adjustments based on the most recent patch abolishing those horrible little, evil to the core, mockery of a dark soul, ninja flippin poise stabbers.

    In end, I feel the best fix is not to shrink the hitbox. Hell if this idea worked right I'd say, "Open her up bro...make it bigger...i dare ya."

    Its like:
    -lock-on pivot stabs:FINE
    -lock-off stabs: FINE
    -lock-on/off roll stabs: FINE
    -"tele-stabs": SORTA JUST FROKEN BROKE :?: :!: :?: :!:

    At least this idea reduces overall backstabs at the cost of the backstabee being able to execute the "breakout" move in a skillful way...of course. Its a start at the VERY least. Maybe there's a better way, but I like this idea for sure. I dont see what it hurts.
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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:06 am

    Excep, because of lag, they could have grabbed you and started the bs before you even see the grab. If there's a mandatory X frames time between the grab and the bs, one of 2 things will happen. Its so difficult to escape that the "fix" was pointless or its easy enough to do (even if its still fairly difficult) that virtually every good player will constantly shake them off and render them ineffective as a punish.

    Probably a coding nightmare, but the only way I would accept this is if there was a 100 or 120 degree cone where the bs works the same as it does now, and the remaining 30-40 degrees on either side gets the 2 step, to signify the struggle to align oneself properly for a critical strike.


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    Re: Idea to fix the Backstab. Make it a 2 part move.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:43 pm

    Oh idk. I think there could also be a happy medium. I have faith in FROM's programmers. They do get things right sometimes, take the elemental and scaling weapon adjustments for instance.

    Is there a possibility it could hurt backstabs more than it helps?...sure. But I'd prefer not to look at this particular idea as being defeated before its even developed.

    I dont think this idea would do one of only 2 things. It would be an undertaking for sure and if not done properly, then ya, it would wreck the backstab.

    As far as adding a cone for a "sweet spot", while it sounds good and I like it, I think it would add to the "coding nightmare" as you rightly implied. I'm not sure if FROM would be this ambitious...

    But if they were...

    I'd sure like them to use Dark Souls as a beta. Maybe make a special arena for beta testers?...

    When considering both DeS and DkS and the future soul series in general, I believe a backstab breakout would be a great addition.

    Consider the alternatives:
    -a ring: takes up 50% of ring slot space.
    -lock-on: I cant backstab you if I'm unlocked? No. I cant backstab you if im locked? No.
    -smaller hitbox: Everything but vacuumstabs are fine as is now.
    -shield: Restricts build development.
    -no backstabs: no comment :silent:
    -only daggers/etc: No way man. Every single weapon needs to have access.
    -damage tiering: Not sure. But if a breakout was implemented, it would seem unecessary.

    I mean thats kinda really it in a nutshell right? Lets think of this as actually working, otherwise nothing will work because its all broke. So what would be the funnest, right?

    So whats your favorite??? I'd like to turnaround and stab em in the face like the trailer, like a fatality move? A third animation for fatality riptoses!!! YAAAAAAAAAAA fatality riptoses!!! FTW!!!!!!!!


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