Change Rapiers

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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Acarnatia on Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:17 am

    Yeah, a solid wall of red text is a strain for even me to look at.
    I actually already suggested making a list of attuneable stances. I think it will be really cool to have stances that are learned just like spells and equipped like them. Perhaps the number you and I can attune to can scale with Intelligence? That will give melee characters a reason to not be an idiot (I like having an Intelligence score higher than 7 for roleplaying >.>) other than being a caster/warrior hybrid. I also think some of these can reflect regional differences. For example, Astora (which I think mirrors England and/or France) used more defensive techniques, while Germany (perhaps Thorlund?) was famous for it's VERY offensive style. A lot of fencing came from Italy and Spain. (perhaps Carim?) I think that has a lot of lore potential, too.
    TinyPantha's partially right. Rapiers weren't handled in the same manner as smallswords; neither were they handled as arming swords, though. Techniques, stances and weapon designs for civilian dueling weapons (fencing with epees and smallswords) were quite different from actual military and mercenary thrusting swords. The actual manner of employment wasn't the slash-and-thrust methods used by arming swords, though; that's counterproductive to the very point of using a thrusting sword and will actually quickly destroy a thrusting sword.
    The Souls series has thus far been 1300-1500's in terms of both technology and culture, not 1600-1800's. That being said, I think a fantasy game set in the 1600's sounds awesome.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:36 am

    Acarnatia wrote: The actual manner of employment wasn't the slash-and-thrust methods used by arming swords, though; that's counterproductive to the very point of using a thrusting sword and will actually quickly destroy a thrusting sword.

    Modern day fencers would disagree.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Acarnatia on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:09 pm

    ]Modern fencing is almost entirely unrelated to actual Renaissance combat. Modern fencers are also notorious among actual historians for using VERY inaccurate information when speaking about earlier forms of combat.
    Please read the first two paragraphs under history- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dueling_sword#Fencing a lot of fencing (in America especially) also came from Great Britain. In Great Britain, while dueling was legal, killing a man in a duel was not. Therefore, the techniques used were specifically designed to not kill. Obviously, this is different from actual military combat. Note the History section on this page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier Fencing came from civilians pretending to be soldiers. It developed from techniques, stances and weapons that were unfit for actual warfare. Many modern fencers also say unfounded things about pre-fencing combat that more often than not actually shows how poorly researched they are. If we are going to talk about historical combat, please use actual history to make your point; if we're just going by the Rule of Cool, then that's another thing and your basis is actually quite valid. As I think I've shown, I have a strong preference for historical accuracy.
    On the other hand, there is a problem in stating what actually was used because we just don't know. One of the reasons that Eastern combat is so popular and so often portrayed as superior the Western combat is that unlike the Eastern martial arts, not a single pre-firearm martial art survives today. All historians have are books, which which are not enough to really be certain of the accuracy of modern interpretation.
    If anyone is interested in a lot of really accurate and honest information regarding 1300-1550 or so combat, I strongly suggest you look some pages on this website. http://www.thearma.org/ Aside from this website, the best other source I've found is Wikipedia.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by tinypantha on Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:35 pm

    Thank You Acarnatia for actually reading my post.

    Most people today also believe swords were used as a primay weapon. tsk tsk....

    So confused we are as a society for the cool Factor...

    on topic:

    Like i said before using a rapier isnt un-seen for fighting but using it with a self handicap such as 1 hand behind your back? No.

    Turning sideways to minimize the amount of space you must parry? Yes


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Acarnatia on Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:29 pm

    tinypantha wrote:Thank You Acarnatia for actually reading my post.

    Like i said before using a rapier isnt un-seen for fighting but using it with a self handicap such as 1 hand behind your back? No.

    Turning sideways to minimize the amount of space you must parry? Yes



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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by tinypantha on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:13 pm

    sadly i cannot see the picture you linked. I will try to view it tommorow.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:33 pm

    Clearly you guys need to brush up on your history.

    This is the proper way to use a rapier:



    silly


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:00 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:]Modern fencing is almost entirely unrelated to actual Renaissance combat. Modern fencers are also notorious among actual historians for using VERY inaccurate information when speaking about earlier forms of combat.
    Please read the first two paragraphs under history- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dueling_sword#Fencing a lot of fencing (in America especially) also came from Great Britain. In Great Britain, while dueling was legal, killing a man in a duel was not. Therefore, the techniques used were specifically designed to not kill. Obviously, this is different from actual military combat. Note the History section on this page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier Fencing came from civilians pretending to be soldiers. It developed from techniques, stances and weapons that were unfit for actual warfare. Many modern fencers also say unfounded things about pre-fencing combat that more often than not actually shows how poorly researched they are. If we are going to talk about historical combat, please use actual history to make your point; if we're just going by the Rule of Cool, then that's another thing and your basis is actually quite valid. As I think I've shown, I have a strong preference for historical accuracy.
    On the other hand, there is a problem in stating what actually was used because we just don't know. One of the reasons that Eastern combat is so popular and so often portrayed as superior the Western combat is that unlike the Eastern martial arts, not a single pre-firearm martial art survives today. All historians have are books, which which are not enough to really be certain of the accuracy of modern interpretation.
    If anyone is interested in a lot of really accurate and honest information regarding 1300-1550 or so combat, I strongly suggest you look some pages on this website. http://www.thearma.org/ Aside from this website, the best other source I've found is Wikipedia.

    I never said modern fencing was like enlightenment fencing. . .

    I'm saying that I've watched more than my fair share of mixed martial arts videos, and good fencers can reliably go toe to toe against people using slashing weapons, such as katanas or straight swords.

    Not going off anything historical, just what I've read and seen amongst fencing clubs.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Johnthethird on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:59 am

    tinypantha wrote:But we arent Fencing!

    and buggy i am typing using a GUI its very bulky.

    Rapiers weren't used like that (or for long) in battle! They really were like swords, only used as a last resort.

    I do not know the proper way to 2h them but i feel 2h would be better then Mr.Fencer
    When has dark souls ever been realistic? It looks way cooler to do that, and people didn't hold rapiers with 2 hands ever. They would hold 1 had behind their back. If you are going to 2 hand it, why not just do that instead and make it more powerful?
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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Johnthethird on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:01 am

    Okay I actually practiced a reinisance age rapier class, and you do put your hand behind your back when using the rapier.
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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:38 am

    That's not possible, actually, because EVERY Renaissance-age and prior martial art from Europe is extinct. http://www.thearma.org/study.htm
    In regards to the comment on how thrusting swords were held with the off-hand behind the wielder's back-read the section on 'off-hand weapons.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier The stance that society has been shown again and again is a civilian dueling stance, not a combat stance. That's for a different time period, a different battlefield and a different weapon.
    Furthermore, Dark Souls is, at least at lower levels, actually pretty realistic. It takes only a handful of hits at most to die or to kill; the weights of gear are only off a little bit; (many armors are actually 3/4 of what the actual weight was while the weapons are about 1.5 times heavier. Weights in Demon's Souls were nearly perfect) the maneuvers are generally true enough to actual combat; many of the weapon and armor designs are actual replicas of specific surviving arms and armor; even the way that magic is implemented and how it affects the world at large is realistic and natural. The elements that push well beyond what is realistic (considering the low-level magic and souls-infused people) are actually fewer in number. (Dragon's Tooth)


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Sloth9230 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:51 am

    I'm not sure what the proper non dueling way of using a rapier is, but I'm assuming that it would actually be a lot like a using a giant dagger; that is to say, stabbity stab stab.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Sloth9230 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:11 am

    lol. What the hell was I trying to say? Of course they were used for stabbing Look Skyward

    Edit: well try as I might, I couldn't actually find anything on the proper military use of a Rapier.

    But according to wikipedia, the three/four musketeers film/s had a pretty accurate representation of what dueling with one was like. So here's a scene from the four musketeers.



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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by tinypantha on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:31 pm

    So Handicapping yourself is more a viable strategy than 2hing it? What kind of world do we live in today may i ask? One of rainbows and Unicorns?


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Sloth9230 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:50 pm

    Considering two handing a rapier shortens your reach and forces you to leave more of your chest vulnerable, I'd say two handing a rapier in real life is a pretty big handicap as is. Only reason I'd two hand one would be to stab someone really really hard(which is what happens with all R2's except Velkas, and the character actually only uses 1 hand for the two handed R2 of the regular rapier and the beginning of Velka's) The R2's are all right, but the two handed R1's just look awkward.



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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Buggy Virus on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:36 pm

    I mean. . .

    There is never a tactile advantage to two handing a rapier. . .

    But more the point is, wouldn't it be more interesting if the rapiers felt more unique?


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by tinypantha on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:48 pm

    is there a tactcal advantage fighting with a handicap?

    Do we know the proper way to "2h" a rapier? No.

    Do we need to continue this conversation about pre-discussed material? No

    Will I continue if others do to defend my opinion? Yes, if only because of my childish behavoir.

    Will I search for the proper answer? Yes


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:11 pm

    Uh... if you're looking for historical accuracy, never use anything from the Three Musketeers-any version of it. It's entirely based on Romantic ideas, over-stressed chivalry in an age when chivalry was dead, flashy and overly dramatic in both story and combat. The most obvious flaw is in the very title; Musketeers. Musketeers were so named because they specialized in muskets-firearms. They only used thrusting swords as a side-arm.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musketeer
    And in regards to the 'proper' way to two-hand a thrusting sword-there just isn't one. The level of speed, wide arc of attack and narrow profile are what makes rapiers practical weapons at all, and two-handing a rapier decreases all of that; it's the same as using a zweihander like a shortsword. It just doesn't work. Not using something in my off-hand isn't necessarily a handicap; in fact, the entire reason duel-wielding was abandoned was because it became more practical to turn sideways which presenting a smaller target and different types of reaction moves. Yes, this is more viable than 2-handing a thrusting sword; thrusting swords aren't dependent on strength. It only takes a few pounds of pressure to pierce fatally deep into a human body, which is easily done with a single arm. It is far more advantageous to stand at a narrow profile or to use a second weapon or buckler to parry, used as a support, than to 2-hand the sword.
    In regards to making them more 'unique', can you give some examples? I myself really enjoy Velka's Rapier; it's just too weak to be effective for anything other than hunting Black Knights, though.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Sloth9230 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:18 pm

    There wasn't exactly much chivalry in that scene...


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:41 pm

    THREE MINUTES. Fights don't last three minutes. Fights almost never last one minute. Fights rarely last thirty seconds.
    Each man's stance is wrong; a real rapier user may very well have stabbed D'artagnan on his initial charge. The man in red didn't stab him as he went through the door. Each attack is WIDE open and can easily be punished with a stab in the torso. Each throws his weight into the attack-exactly what you don't do with a thrusting sword.
    The Three Musketeers is actually one of the best examples ever of how most of society incorrectly views combat and warfare. If you're looking for honesty, never look at the Three Musketeers.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Sloth9230 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:44 pm

    Okay, no musketeers, go it. Still... there's not much to go on as far as realistic combat techniques in films.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by tinypantha on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:22 pm

    Acarnatia: "2hing" was in quotes for a reason. I was attempting to use the quotes as to say "Theres no other term for it so why not go with what it is for other weapons? Two Handing"

    That scene was ridiculous and seems so easy to counter all of the attacks with a blow XD
    Not that i think that I could really do any swordplay...
    Im currently reading a book and to me it has a pretty reasonable strategy for "2hing" a Rapier. I have no memory of the page number i got the idea from so it will be a later day when i get to post the actual Idea. But I do remember him using the hilt for stuns alot.... And Parrying with the blade...

    Maybe "2hing" your rapier could make your attacks more of sidewards lunges rather than sideways pokes?
    Make the "2hing" Moves more aggressive and allow for a parry with the blade but! Keep your hand movements as they are now?
    Such as when you lunge with the Estoc 1h'd you throw your arm upward for some reason...

    Alternative Idea:
    Make a fancier moveset that consists of more motions like the estocs one handed R2 attack and make the R2 Ricards Rapier's R2 Attacks with rapid pokes and a lunge at the end?
    The Off-Hand would have to be put on your back to symbolize the weapon stance change but Your hand would still have the Same Flailing motions of Dks. Because come on guys, You look silly and too prim with your arm behind your back like you think you can beat him with only one hand!


    There I contributed without having to reference the old Idea! Damn I just did ._.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Buggy Virus on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:12 pm

    I'm not advocating anything with the offhand while you handing, just a different move set where you don't put both hands on the hilt.

    I don't care if the offhand is on one's back sides, or in the air, just two handing rapiers is silly.

    Oh, and I know the musketeer movie, it was pretty inaccurate, but the earlier 60s one actually just uses real fencing. Stuff.


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:36 pm

    Well, there's not much for realistic Renaissance combat at all. EVERY Western martial art from that time period and earlier is extinct. Part of why the Eastern martial arts are so popular is that there is a wealth of surviving forms, with masters who were successively taught by previous practicioners and masters. This is not the case for European martial arts; there are NO known schools that still survive. The arts were at various points not passed onto the new generation, and eventually became lost altogether. All that remains are a few weapons and books, which are, of course, not all-comprehensive, or nearly as effective as a teacher. Films can certainly be as accurate as they possibly can; (I have seen none thus far that come anywhere near close to that, though) it's difficult to be completely accurate, though.
    A hilt is not used to attack, and certainly not to stun, in real combat. If the other person is even close enough for a thrusting sword user to reach them with his/her hilt, they're usually going to be dead in a matter of seconds, just like with a spear. And you DO parry with the blade (with just one hand ._.)


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    Re: Change Rapiers

    Post by Johnthethird on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:08 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:That's not possible, actually, because EVERY Renaissance-age and prior martial art from Europe is extinct. http://www.thearma.org/study.htm
    In regards to the comment on how thrusting swords were held with the off-hand behind the wielder's back-read the section on 'off-hand weapons.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier The stance that society has been shown again and again is a civilian dueling stance, not a combat stance. That's for a different time period, a different battlefield and a different weapon.
    Furthermore, Dark Souls is, at least at lower levels, actually pretty realistic. It takes only a handful of hits at most to die or to kill; the weights of gear are only off a little bit; (many armors are actually 3/4 of what the actual weight was while the weapons are about 1.5 times heavier. Weights in Demon's Souls were nearly perfect) the maneuvers are generally true enough to actual combat; many of the weapon and armor designs are actual replicas of specific surviving arms and armor; even the way that magic is implemented and how it affects the world at large is realistic and natural. The elements that push well beyond what is realistic (considering the low-level magic and souls-infused people) are actually fewer in number. (Dragon's Tooth)
    Actually, they have been kept alive and are still practiced today, but are much less common. And in dark souls you are not going to war. You are in escence fighting many individuals, or engaging in duels with other players.

    It is highly likely that one or two civilian rapiers would be there.

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