Punishing retreating turtles

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    largestember
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    Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by largestember on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:25 pm

    Very often when I cast a temporary buff spell like great magic barrier or power within, the guy will run from me waiting for the buff to come to an end. They usually keep their shield up and walk backwards and I can't damage them. If the guy is a coward, he will instead sprint to a place where there are mobs still alive then either gank or wait for the buff to turn off.

    What's the best way to punish these guys if I don't have a shotel?
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Kirk-Barb on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:59 pm

    I would try pyromancy, or a good bleed weapon, or a big hitting weapon that punishes stamina.
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by RANT on Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:09 pm

    black flame or a shotel, the r2 of the shotel has surprisingly good phantom reach.


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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:33 pm

    learn to fight without a buff…seriously though, with a buff you have to pretty much stay on em like white on rice. if they insist on running swap to a bow in your off hand so you won't lose your buff and poison them, let them hang out by themselves and slowly die.
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:10 pm

    As someone who often does this during fights(I'm not a coward, I'm just not dumb enough to trade blows with someone with Darkmoon blade active) I can give you a little bit of advice.

    I have a greatshield so I can tell you right now that you'll NEVER be able to break my guard by hitting it if I'm back peddling. Only try that if the other guy has at least a mid or light shield and/or is stuck against the wall

    Bleed weapons work and usually force me to dodge, which makes me lower my guard

    If I'm toxined or poisoned I might want to fight back.


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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Flankydizzle on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:32 pm

    Poison arrows.
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by largestember on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:28 am

    Thanks for the suggestions.

    Black flame works quite well on some people but if they have fast roll or ninja flip, they can get away most of the time.

    Unlocking works pretty well too. I unlock then sprint to their back. They'll think I'm fishing for a bs so they start going the opposite direction, I can use this to corner them.

    Poison and dung pies do a pretty nice job too.

    And of course, if you have dark magic or sunlight spears, it'll be even easier to put pressure on them.

    However, if they're fast and there are NPCs around, especially NG+n npcs, it's better to wait for them in asafe spot. They should come back after a while but will try to run and heal if they get damaged, so, it's a good idea to try and block their escape path.

    Those are things I've tried and should do well against these guys.
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:44 am

    Backstab them.


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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:07 pm

    largestember wrote:Very often when I cast a temporary buff spell like great magic barrier or power within, the guy will run from me waiting for the buff to come to an end. They usually keep their shield up and walk backwards and I can't damage them. If the guy is a coward, he will instead sprint to a place where there are mobs still alive then either gank or wait for the buff to turn off.

    What's the best way to punish these guys if I don't have a shotel?
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:34 pm

    LunarFog, with the right weapon and attacks I wouldn't go so far as to say never for a guard break. I've done it to a few very surprised turtles. I'll readily admit though that it's often not the best strategy. Particularly since you'll consume a large chunk of your own stamina. Kind of a do or die technique.

    My own suggestions for beating these guys though are probably mostly similar to those above. If they run to mobs arrows are effective since you might wanna be out of aggro range. Otherwise I always have poison knives queued up for fun.

    Next tactic: Patience. If you want to fight them, locate them and wait. They'll either eventually come to you or suicide.

    Other technique: Isolation. You know the level layout I would assume. Cut off any areas they can exploit. IF they're retreating it's because they don't want to engage. So put yourself between them and the area you don't want them in.

    Final technique I used to harp on a ton: Spacing spacing spacing. Know the reach of weapons and taunt your opponent into doing something silly like swinging and missing. Stay right around that "bet you can hit me range" and a calm step backwards means strike one and OPPORTUNITY!!!


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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:38 pm

    I usually get Coffee! and look at amazing :mask-averice: online.
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:57 pm

    Lol. Just be careful. Looking at amazing :mask-averice: can lead to a rapid jerking motion I hear. Not a good combo with hot coffee.



    I'll be good now.


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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:11 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:Lol. Just be careful. Looking at amazing :mask-averice: can lead to a rapid jerking motion I hear. Not a good combo with hot coffee.



    I'll be good now.

    lol!

    Back on topic...eehhhh screw it....

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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by ChillerHR on Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:13 pm

    I never turtle but I always evade while opponents buff lasts, if I see a window of opportunity I strike but 3/4 of buff time I evade...or I WoG if I have it...

    And what would be honourable thing to do? Certanly not trade blows with unbuffed gear?
    I can't believe that someone would think that one should run towards buffed blades...


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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by AzureTear on Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:41 pm

    I do think in an honorable duel you shouldn't turtle or run away until the buff time runs out. Your basically pitting your build against theirs, you have higher stats somewhere else since you aren't using buffs while they invested stats to use buffs. So if you want to do a test of whose build is stronger, and who is a better player then it would be cowardly to run away since you don't think you can handle it. That's like running away and stalling for hours from a mage till his spells run out all because you can't handle it. That's not really a pvp match, more like a boring war of attrition.


    Although if its not a honor duel, then what the heck, just do what your supposed to do as a invader and exploit every weakness and opening possible.

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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by lorenzo110 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:01 pm

    Sorry but that logic makes no sense. An intelligent player knows that if he is fighting with a basic weapon that he will need to strike his opponent 5 to 6 times to kill, while his adversary using a sunlight, darkmoon, or crystal buff blade weapon will kill him in three hits and this is dependant on whether the buffer is also using wolf or hornets which will buff the critical attacks to OHKO or two hits. And lets not forget power within buff as well. Does that sound like a fair fight? Ask any veteran DKS player and all who are honest will tell you no it is not. One is basically entering the battle at a big disadvantage. And I do mean very big disadvantage. The wise and smart tactic to take under these circumstances is to evade and use mobility until the buffs wear out. For a person to say they should stand there and trade shot for shot and see which build is the best is quite honestly being rediculous.

    Now I dont use buffs because in my opinion, again this is only my thoughts, buffs are for players who feel they need to have the highest advantage they can in a fight. Whether its sunlight, darkmoon, and crystal wep buffs, coupled with crown of dusk and bellowing ring or any other ring that enhances their spells or wep damage. That is easy mode. You relish the thought of the fight lasting one hit in your favor. That does not equate to any amount of skill requirement at all. To fight a 15 to 20 min war of attrition and come out on top winning by skill and weapons that are not buffed requires alot of skill and knowledge of the games battle tactics and counters. Plus it is much more satisfying a victory then sword buff OHKO with hornets ring in 2 seconds. Where is the fun in that really? Where is the test of your true fighting ability? I think when a person self evaulates his tactics and sees that using dark bead spamming with crown and dusk and crystal catalyst or sunlight, darkmoon, ect. buffs with hornets or wolfs or whatever deep down inside they know they are not challenging themselves to become complete and skilled fighters. No skill is required to OHKO anyone. Period. Anyone could do these used up youtube tactics and be successful doing it. But do they garner the respect and accolades of their fellow DKS veteran players? Nope.

    Many new players view this game as a battle of builds instead of skills. Builds wont win the fight its the skill and knowledge of tactics that will overcome an opponent. Builds may only give you a slight advantage but it wont win the fight. I know many of you do not like hearing this because I notice that most of this forum is skewed toward people who exclusively invade for the most part. Thus making their opinion baised and one sided at best to that perspective. And thats all fine but we must remember the amount of people that participate in this forum is very little compared to the over all amount of people who play the game. Some have tempered their response giving both sides of the issue. I would simply state again my opinion coming from DS and DKS game experiance that buffs really only are used by people who prefer easy mode and advantages in pvp game play. These players actually refuse to challenge themselves to become true players with respected skills. I fought against someone in 6 invades and killed him in five of the fights. In the last fight he decided to go easy mode and still almost lost. I received a message from the guy saying "I finally got you." to which I replied "Yup, but you had to buff to do it. Power within, dusk crown, dark moon blade with a ring buff. All this against someone dualing a spear on the off hand and a katana on the other with no shield at all or buff of any sort. That is nothing to brag at all about because in the end I still won. You felt the need to have all these advantages to win one fight, instead of trying to improve your skill and earn the fight on equal and fair terms. Your fear of losing in the end made you the loser. Even with all your buffs I was still one hit away from killing you. When you stop challenging yourself to improve your skill and choose only to fight with the most advantages in the game you will never get better as a fighter nor gain the respect of other veterans." Its your choice as a player what you want to be in this game. If you want to be a buffer then know when you come across veteran players they will wait you out most of the time then kill you easy once the buff is gone. Or they may resort to other counter measures that you may not like, but again you only brought this upon yourself. Every action has a reaction some less honorable then others and some more intelligent then the first.Just my opin.

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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:55 pm

    lorenzo110 wrote:Sorry but that logic makes no sense. An intelligent player knows that if he is fighting with a basic weapon that he will need to strike his opponent 5 to 6 times to kill, while his adversary using a sunlight, darkmoon, or crystal buff blade weapon will kill him in three hits and this is dependant on whether the buffer is also using wolf or hornets which will buff the critical attacks to OHKO or two hits. And lets not forget power within buff as well. Does that sound like a fair fight? Ask any veteran DKS player and all who are honest will tell you no it is not. One is basically entering the battle at a big disadvantage. And I do mean very big disadvantage. The wise and smart tactic to take under these circumstances is to evade and use mobility until the buffs wear out. For a person to say they should stand there and trade shot for shot and see which build is the best is quite honestly being rediculous.

    Now I dont use buffs because in my opinion, again this is only my thoughts, buffs are for players who feel they need to have the highest advantage they can in a fight. Whether its sunlight, darkmoon, and crystal wep buffs, coupled with crown of dusk and bellowing ring or any other ring that enhances their spells or wep damage. That is easy mode. You relish the thought of the fight lasting one hit in your favor. That does not equate to any amount of skill requirement at all. To fight a 15 to 20 min war of attrition and come out on top winning by skill and weapons that are not buffed requires alot of skill and knowledge of the games battle tactics and counters. Plus it is much more satisfying a victory then sword buff OHKO with hornets ring in 2 seconds. Where is the fun in that really? Where is the test of your true fighting ability? I think when a person self evaulates his tactics and sees that using dark bead spamming with crown and dusk and crystal catalyst or sunlight, darkmoon, ect. buffs with hornets or wolfs or whatever deep down inside they know they are not challenging themselves to become complete and skilled fighters. No skill is required to OHKO anyone. Period. Anyone could do these used up youtube tactics and be successful doing it. But do they garner the respect and accolades of their fellow DKS veteran players? Nope.

    Many new players view this game as a battle of builds instead of skills. Builds wont win the fight its the skill and knowledge of tactics that will overcome an opponent. Builds may only give you a slight advantage but it wont win the fight. I know many of you do not like hearing this because I notice that most of this forum is skewed toward people who exclusively invade for the most part. Thus making their opinion baised and one sided at best to that perspective. And thats all fine but we must remember the amount of people that participate in this forum is very little compared to the over all amount of people who play the game. Some have tempered their response giving both sides of the issue. I would simply state again my opinion coming from DS and DKS game experiance that buffs really only are used by people who prefer easy mode and advantages in pvp game play. These players actually refuse to challenge themselves to become true players with respected skills. I fought against someone in 6 invades and killed him in five of the fights. In the last fight he decided to go easy mode and still almost lost. I received a message from the guy saying "I finally got you." to which I replied "Yup, but you had to buff to do it. Power within, dusk crown, dark moon blade with a ring buff. All this against someone dualing a spear on the off hand and a katana on the other with no shield at all or buff of any sort. That is nothing to brag at all about because in the end I still won. You felt the need to have all these advantages to win one fight, instead of trying to improve your skill and earn the fight on equal and fair terms. Your fear of losing in the end made you the loser. Even with all your buffs I was still one hit away from killing you. When you stop challenging yourself to improve your skill and choose only to fight with the most advantages in the game you will never get better as a fighter nor gain the respect of other veterans." Its your choice as a player what you want to be in this game. If you want to be a buffer then know when you come across veteran players they will wait you out most of the time then kill you easy once the buff is gone. Or they may resort to other counter measures that you may not like, but again you only brought this upon yourself. Every action has a reaction some less honorable then others and some more intelligent then the first.Just my opin.

    First off....I couldn't help it.

    Secondly, people here are different. Maybe this one might suit you a little better??? darksouls.wikidot.commmmmmmmm (or something like it)

    Furthermore, I don't believe this post warrants an entire multi-quote analysis. Instead I will underline parts of it and base my response in a numbered sequence accordingly. It does deserve a counter-opinion at the very least.

    1)Are you talking about the entire thread? If you are not, I would use a "@" symbol or quote the person you are talking to.

    2)Okay now I know who you are talking to.

    3)Thats actually a valid point. I don't see how its a problem though because its those same mistaken misguided souls that fall to me when I'm screwin around and playing with my feet.

    4)So what. Soooo invaders bad, I get it. There is no such thing as a honorable invader huh? Sorry if you dont like the forumers. If you need a place to go, again...maybe try this one? darksouls.wikidot.commmmmmmmmmm (or something like it if you catch my drift)

    Look man, you bring up some good points about not letting your build win, I'll give you that. But you're missing a lot about how to win.

    Elf ears??? I quick swap to moonlight arrows. Someone buffs??? I quick swap to DWGR and abuse the he|| outta iframes. We could go on for hours, but we wont.

    What I cant figure out is why you seem to think AzureTear was saying, "I walk up to a buff and fall on their sword." I didn't get that outta their statement at all. I actually agree with it 100%. I dont walk away from a buff if I'm looking for a duel. I overcome it, and based on what you said from your own pvp experience...you do too. Sooooooooo why do you have a problem with buffs again?
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:16 am

    Look, it's perfectly reasonable and logical to block and evade attacks, especially if the weapons used against you is buffed. This is not about waiting for the buff to run out, but about exploiting your opponents weaknesses. Most players start to be very aggresive once they buff and go swinging at you like crazy, or go for some cheap bs.
    This is a great opportunity to use their behavior against them, by making them waste Stamina on missed and blocked attacks, so you can attack them afterwards, when their Stamina is low. You can also use this to parry them. For some reason, they rarely expect you to risk a parry if they have a buff, but it works even better than ususally, because they are now super aggresive and don't expect it.
    It's also a good way to tell them "I don't give a :dung: about your buff!" lol!


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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by lorenzo110 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:01 am

    Valid points just as valid as mine. Though I think some may have not understood it. Buffs do not take skill to utilize my friends. Also the thing about iframes I would recommend you check out a youtube vid that pretty much puts to rest this rediculous notion that the flip ring gives anyone at all an advantage versus the fast roll. As martrys pointed out in referencing the vid its less then a tenth of a second. I know its off topic but Im going to respond since someone brought this up and I did not. We know as veterans the flip ring does not buff magic or weapon damage it only allows a different rolling animation which really has no advantage to it say as a fast roll. By less then a Tenth of a second. Now about the forums I would venture to say that everyone is entitled to their open and to speak freely as they would like as long as they are not using profanity and instigating fights that is why there are moderators who patrol the threads. Dont think I ever said invaders were bad as more saying people who utilize certain tactics are not as good as they think they are. Again as I stated before this is my opin...if you have to use a buff in order to fight that pretty much speaks volumes in the competence of your abilities. People who use these tactics need advantages over their opponents to fight. They are not challenging themselves to become better skilled players. This goes for both those who invade and those who camp, basically all players. Yes a better skilled player can win against these tactics and I have won my fair share against all sorts of these buffers but it does not change the mentality of these people who honestly believe they are great players.The point is this, and I hope people will actually take this in before responding...for every action there is a cause and effect reaction. The same is in behavor and attitudes as well as tactics and skill. People will turtle buffers becuase it is a valid tactic to use against these types of fighters. Now people may be upset about having to fight against turtles but if they are buffing they should not be suprised by it. And if your arguement is that you need buffs to fight against gankers that is not true. I saw a guy beat 3 people using a regular un buffed sword with no shield. Further more he did not backstab or spam spells nor did he have any buffing ring. Only the flip ring. He picked apart all three slowly one by one. For those that want to aspire to be great fighters that is how they should fight. With no advantage over your opponents what so ever and not relying on backstabs or parrys or magic. The rest of us, including me, pale in comparison.

    Now on point since I do not use a shield anymore, I will counter buffers with my mobility and speed. And pick them apart as I do so. I got alot of messages from people I beat at the arena and elsewhere calling me a lousy fighter, to which I respond to them that they are correct. I am a bad fighter, but with that being said that should tell them how good they are as fighters because they got whooped by a lousy fighter. I basically gave them the advantage in the fight with all their buffs and as crappy a player I am I still happened to win. Using buffs will not make you a great player or should you even be considered a great player because you use them. Those people that do not use buffs of any sort, weapon or magic enhancing, and and choose to fight others at a disadvantage are the real pros and stud fighters in my opin. And if they can beat you without doing a back stab or parry they are just in a league of their own. Again...just my opin.
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:29 am

    We all draw the line about their "rules of engagement." Unfortunately, the lines are usually drawn in different spots. But, let's not get condescending when people don't want to follow the self-imposed rules that you do.


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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by LunarFog on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:30 am

    Sweet baby jesus I can't believe how full of bullcrap this thread is. Nothing but pretentious nigglers trying to sound smarter by going out of their way to use biggest words they can think of.


    Last edited by LunarFog on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:38 am

    Crap, they're onto me


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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:27 pm

    lorenzo110 wrote:Valid points just as valid as mine. Though I think some may have not understood it. Buffs do not take skill to utilize my friends. Also the thing about iframes I would recommend you check out a youtube vid that pretty much puts to rest this rediculous notion that the flip ring gives anyone at all an advantage versus the fast roll. As martrys pointed out in referencing the vid its less then a tenth of a second. I know its off topic but Im going to respond since someone brought this up and I did not. We know as veterans the flip ring does not buff magic or weapon damage it only allows a different rolling animation which really has no advantage to it say as a fast roll. By less then a Tenth of a second. Now about the forums I would venture to say that everyone is entitled to their open and to speak freely as they would like as long as they are not using profanity and instigating fights that is why there are moderators who patrol the threads. Dont think I ever said invaders were bad as more saying people who utilize certain tactics are not as good as they think they are. Again as I stated before this is my opin...if you have to use a buff in order to fight that pretty much speaks volumes in the competence of your abilities. People who use these tactics need advantages over their opponents to fight. They are not challenging themselves to become better skilled players. This goes for both those who invade and those who camp, basically all players. Yes a better skilled player can win against these tactics and I have won my fair share against all sorts of these buffers but it does not change the mentality of these people who honestly believe they are great players.The point is this, and I hope people will actually take this in before responding...for every action there is a cause and effect reaction. The same is in behavor and attitudes as well as tactics and skill. People will turtle buffers becuase it is a valid tactic to use against these types of fighters. Now people may be upset about having to fight against turtles but if they are buffing they should not be suprised by it. And if your arguement is that you need buffs to fight against gankers that is not true. I saw a guy beat 3 people using a regular un buffed sword with no shield. Further more he did not backstab or spam spells nor did he have any buffing ring. Only the flip ring. He picked apart all three slowly one by one. For those that want to aspire to be great fighters that is how they should fight. With no advantage over your opponents what so ever and not relying on backstabs or parrys or magic. The rest of us, including me, pale in comparison.

    Now on point since I do not use a shield anymore, I will counter buffers with my mobility and speed. And pick them apart as I do so. I got alot of messages from people I beat at the arena and elsewhere calling me a lousy fighter, to which I respond to them that they are correct. I am a bad fighter, but with that being said that should tell them how good they are as fighters because they got whooped by a lousy fighter. I basically gave them the advantage in the fight with all their buffs and as crappy a player I am I still happened to win. Using buffs will not make you a great player or should you even be considered a great player because you use them. Those people that do not use buffs of any sort, weapon or magic enhancing, and and choose to fight others at a disadvantage are the real pros and stud fighters in my opin. And if they can beat you without doing a back stab or parry they are just in a league of their own. Again...just my opin.

    I just don't have the willpower....

    1) Thats just flat out wrong. I find it strange you'd make that statment based on someone else's analysis as opposed to actual in game play. For starters if it is a 1/10 of second...then I flip 3 times and just added a third of a second immunity on top of the extra distance I created because ya, you do roll futher. Any vet appreciates the fact that this ring still has usefullness left in it.

    2) No, you didn't say anyone was "bad" per say, but implying that one has an "invader" mentallity when talking about duels definitely implies that they might not have any chivalry when dueling. I know you didn't say that EXACTLY, but it seemed implied. I think you are backtracking, just sayin.

    3) Yes you said that before. And yes if you are relying on a buff you're at a disadvantage from a skill point of view, but if you pull off a buff mid-fight, then you're a force to be reckoned with...fact.

    4) Such a broad statement. I could also use a catch pole in competitive pvp with 10 vitality and no armor, but...starting to get off topic.

    5) Hmmmmm sounds pretty useful....

    6) Are you talking about only using ele weps and scalers? You do realize one of the main reasons people use +15 weapons is because you can buff em right? And if you're saying someone is gonna beat me (or any other competent player for that matter) with their "no bs punish" and no "parry punish" playstyle, then I say, "Look out heals and R1 spamming here I come!" lol.

    Look seriously though, saying people can't play because they use buffs is just...well...I just disagree is all. I mean what about elf ears? What about rings? What about green blossoms? What about the hollow armor? What about casters? What about spears? What about THE RING (RoFaP)???

    Maybe they'll patch it all lol. Point is, EVERY build should have a weakness. If every build had an answer for everything (which isn't actually too far fetched) then I consider the game extremely unbalanced, which I dont.

    @Lunarfrog

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    Saturday-Saint
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:37 pm

    Flips do not take skill to utilize my friends.


    Last edited by Saturday-Saint on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    skarekrow13
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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:40 pm

    True. Handsprings take a little skill though.

    On a more serious note though: Everything takes some skill. Soapbox alert!!

    I work in a field where I know a decent number of people who would give more than you can imagine to be able to consistently press a button. Not using a tactic or item you don't like just makes you different than the person who does. Nothing else


    EDIT: Basically, let's play the game the way that's fun for us as individuals and let everyone else do the same. No one is right in these arguments. Ninja handspringing giants with lightning zweihanders (pre-patch) were just as right as my old unbuffed broadsword, gold-hem wearing, mid-roll style


    Last edited by skarekrow13 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Punishing retreating turtles

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