Quick fix for backstabbing

    Share

    Poll

    Is this a quick fix for backstabbing?

    [ 4 ]
    29% [29%] 
    [ 2 ]
    14% [14%] 
    [ 6 ]
    43% [43%] 
    [ 2 ]
    14% [14%] 

    Total Votes: 14
    avatar
    LunarFog
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1856
    Reputation : 109
    Join date : 2012-12-05
    Age : 22
    Location : Darkroot Basin

    Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:21 pm

    What if locking on to someone negated the ability to be backstabbed by that person?

    Think about it. Backstabbing was more than likely supposed to be a mechanic that gives you an advantage for when you get the drop on an enemy. But it's abused by people being able to backstab in the middle of a fight. When you're fighting someone, you're obviously focused on them so they shouldn't be able to backstab you.

    If that didn't work, then what about reduced damage when you're locked on and get backstabbed? That way, punishing people for chugging potions or healing is still affective, but less effective to the point where you might just be better stunlocking and definitely not worth fishing for backstabs.

    Or there could be a mechanic that makes you auto-lock off when you drink a potion or use humanity so the punishment for trying to do that in the middle of the fight is still significant, but backstabs would be weaker when you're still locked on.

    TL:DR
    Few ways to fix the backstab problem.
    1.)Can't get backstabbed by someone you're locked on to
    2.)Reduced backstab damage by somone you're locked on to
    3.)Can't get backstabbed by someone you're locked on to, and you automatically lock off when you heal
    4.)Backstabs during healing animations do full damage


    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:43 pm

    -Anti-lockon backstabs are an idea I like and have thought about for awhile. The idea however, is very problematic....I propose this:
    -Backstabs are good on paper. Lag ruins the intention of the developers with regards to how backstabs were supposed to work in game. Its not the hitbox thats the problem per say, its the tail that follows the hitbox (zoomstabs, aka telestabs, etcetcetc).
    -I dont know how to fix the issue actually. You cant really fix lag (dedicated servers wont necessarily fix this), so I dont know how they can fix backstabs to make them "perfect".
    -I have an idea however. What if there was a "meter" or "gauge" of some sort that would only allow a backstab to be performed if the backstab recipient had not rolled for 1 full second? Furthermore, what if you could not perform a backstab for a 1/2 second after you roll?
    -This would stop people from being able to perform a rollstab and also stop people from being backstabbed while rolling. When the intended recipient of a backstab rolled, considering lag, the intiniator of the backstab would not be able to perform said backstab because the intended backstabee had not registered as "not rolling" for 1 second. Even though the intended backstabee had registered as standing still for a fraction of a second on the "backstabor's" end.....make sense? lol
    -Through this method pivot stabs would be unaffected as well as lock-off backstabs...just a thought.

    IV_Mark_VI
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1721
    Reputation : 52
    Join date : 2012-07-30

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:06 pm

    I don't think backstabs are necessary; just if you are 'defenseless' have it punished with extra damage. There's no reason why a frontal attack shouldn't do more damage when you don't have your shield or weapon up. Plus, it would make heavier builds more viable as you don't need to circle around your opponent.

    I have thought about the lockon idea as well, and I think it's a good one. Plus, fighting without lockon is against the intent of the game in my opinion; the reasons for doing so is aiming ahead of where your opponent will be, roll stabs, run stabs, and dead angling, which I don't think should exist. It does balance things, but I can't believe it was intentional. Just lucky.

    They have a lot of balancing issues in this game, enough that I think they should just focus on dark souls 2. But I do hope that fat rolls become more viable, that backstabs are eliminated from fights (just assign extra damage to attacks while your'e defenceless).


    _________________
    XBox Gamertag: VI Mark IV
    PSN: VI_Mark_IV

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:15 pm

    I can't inagine playing Dark Souls pve without backstabs. Farming chunks in New Londo would be.....:affraid:.
    Backstabbing hard humanity heals is also essential.
    A dark Souls game without backstabs would kinda be like macaroni without cheese imo.
    Backstabs just need reworked imo.
    avatar
    AzureCrow
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 314
    Reputation : 27
    Join date : 2012-09-04
    Age : 26
    Location : Snuggly's nest, New Jersey

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by AzureCrow on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:16 pm

    I agree with Animaaal, the only real problem with the core of backstabbing is the latency and the enormous lag some connections have. The easiest way to reduce this would be to take the pre-existing safety mechanism which neutralizes the damage of a bs if a player damages the bs'r or if both back stab each other and adapt it to recognize lag stabs.

    If the game were able to recognize the locations of each player and compare where player A thinks he is in relation to player B and where player B thinks A is when he goes to back stab A it could engage the fail safe whenever the two numbers are outside a certain range resulting in a damage-less bs.

    This wouldn't prevent pivot stabs or lagged phantom damage but it would neutralize telestabing and lag pivot stabs making it impossible to be bs'd when your opponent is outside say double the bs range on your screen.

    Back stabbing is essential to the core of the souls games and is necessary for punishing players who carelessly make big moves. Timing rolls to move through opponents attacks is already balanced and requires skill and even dead angles can be blocked if you unlock and adjust. The only real nemesis of the souls games is lag. If it were possible to play on local networks dark souls would be nearly flawless.


    _________________
    XBL: AzureCrow

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:27 pm

    AzureCrow wrote:...Back stabbing is essential to the core of the souls games and is necessary for punishing players who carelessly make big moves. Timing rolls to move through opponents attacks is already balanced and requires skill and even dead angles can be blocked if you unlock and adjust. The only real nemesis of the souls games is lag. If it were possible to play on local networks dark souls would be nearly flawless....
    VERY well said.
    I hope the switch to dedicated servers and the revamp of the current p2p system changes things. I'm reluctant to say switching to dedicated servers will fix the issue though. Demon's Souls had dedicated servers as we all know, and there was still a decent amount of lag at times. Albeit not as bad as Dark Souls at times, but still present. And anyone whose played DeS knows that Atlus is a stand up kinda company. I think that lag and latency is something that can only be compensated for, not eliminated given the ability of the contemporary gaming systems......I dont wanna wait to play DkS2 on the ps4 either.
    I hope you're right though Azure, I REALLY want a nearly flawless DkS2 experience.

    IV_Mark_VI
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1721
    Reputation : 52
    Join date : 2012-07-30

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:40 pm

    Is it essential? What is essential is a method for punishing people that are healing/casting/exposed. That almost all pvp builds are light, fast rolling builds shows that the system is broken. THe main reason for fast rolling, is easier to dodge, easier to backstab, easier to counter backstab. The first, easier to dodge attacks, is fine. But most pvp fights it's about back stabbing, if both players are really trying to win. It's such a badly flawed mechanic that a lot of players find it cheap/unfun and don't backstab.

    The concept of punishment for certain moves is definitely required; backstab is not.


    _________________
    XBox Gamertag: VI Mark IV
    PSN: VI_Mark_IV

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:03 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:Is it essential? What is essential is a method for punishing people that are healing/casting/exposed. That almost all pvp builds are light, fast rolling builds shows that the system is broken. THe main reason for fast rolling, is easier to dodge, easier to backstab, easier to counter backstab. The first, easier to dodge attacks, is fine. But most pvp fights it's about back stabbing, if both players are really trying to win. It's such a badly flawed mechanic that a lot of players find it cheap/unfun and don't backstab.

    The concept of punishment for certain moves is definitely required; backstab is not.
    -Unfortunately you're right. Most pvp fights are about who can bs the best, or counter bs the best. It really gets annoying I'll admit. However its not the mechanic that is broke, but the gaming systems ability to handle the code for said mechanic imo. Fix the code somehow and all the sudden backstabs become, "Oooooh woooooow. That PLAYER is goooood. They deserved to beat me."
    -The hitbox is actually relatively small. I dont believe FROM designed this innovative groundbreaking game to have such an elementary flaw that could be abused by the most amateur gamer in such an simple way. I don't think they created DeS and DkS and thought to themselves, "Oooooo Backstab Souls hehehe." lol. They're just not trolling us that way imo. Its not perfect, simple as that.
    -I for one think they did an AWESOME job for being the "Firsts" ya know? I don't think backstabs are the problem people make em out to be sometimes. Most vets now exercise caution when invading/pvping and I think its reflective on the forums and message boards used by the community. If it was completely op'd, thats all that would be on the boards.
    -I think backstabs are essential.....because its Dark Souls man...muwhahahahaha!
    -But I agree with Mark, its kinda broke.
    ***And how the eff do I put spaces between paragraphs????....grumbles....
    avatar
    Juutas
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1500
    Reputation : 104
    Join date : 2012-06-30
    Age : 29
    Location : Finland

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by Juutas on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:33 pm

    What about the turtles?


    _________________
    "Now stay down!" "...okay"

    Twitch.tv: www.twitch.tv/blueberryknights
    Youtube: www.youtube.com/user/Juutas1988
    XBOX: Juutas1988
    PC: Juutas1988

    IV_Mark_VI
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1721
    Reputation : 52
    Join date : 2012-07-30

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:09 am

    There should be multiple ways to get over/through shields, I just don't think deadangling is the way to go. Right now, there's one weapon: shotel. The structure FROM attempted to go was that hiding behind your shield and attacking drains your stamina for a larger amount; I think the stamina system needs to be tweaked.

    The concept was good; your armour affected stamina regeneration, but has anyone noticed it significantly affecting a fight? A large shield should offer a lot of protection, at the cost of lower stamina regeneration.

    I think there's a lot of good concepts in how they were going to structure the stamina, but I wish they'd redo it. Make the stamina bar much longer, perhaps double or triple, but make the regeneration much slower. Fighters should get tired in fights. Holding up a huge shield should be tiring, as should wearing heavy armour (but heavy armour should be much more protective). If you get nailed wearing a robe with a two handed sword, backstab or not, it should take off a lot of health.

    I hope they can release the option to mod dark souls 2 on the PC; allow the user community to make their own server rooms with their own rules. I bet you'll get a much more robust PvP that way by letting the community do hundreds of hours of free testing and playing.


    _________________
    XBox Gamertag: VI Mark IV
    PSN: VI_Mark_IV
    avatar
    GenericUsername
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 443
    Reputation : 21
    Join date : 2012-12-20
    Age : 23

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by GenericUsername on Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:13 am

    Just viewd the polls and I really don't think reduced damage would really help. Knowing the kind of people that do nothing but BS fish, I imagine reduced damage would just incur even more chain backstabbers.
    avatar
    PlasticandRage
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 5280
    Reputation : 123
    Join date : 2012-01-27
    Age : 34
    Location : New York

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:36 am

    ^ I think that's probably a likely prediction. I for one don't really mind them anymore. I really did before I'd really gotten the hang of countering them, but now that I can do it relatively well, I actually kind of enjoy doing it. It's fun punishing a fisher over and over again with the same thing they're trying to do you.


    _________________
    All great men have mustaches.

    TIGER UPPERCUT!

    PSN: PlasticAndRage
    avatar
    WyrmHero
    Lordvessel
    Lordvessel

    Posts : 8742
    Reputation : 221
    Join date : 2012-02-16
    Age : 29
    Location : The Painted World

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:03 am

    Ha Lunar, I proposed some time ago that in order to get backstabbed your opponent has to lock on the you. The visualization is that he has to "aim" at the vulnerable parts of the body in order to make a critical wound. This idea destroys all backstab PvP techniques that rely on locking off your opponent to make your toon face his back, such as roll bs and pivot bs. It's funny that we both thought of the same but in opposite sense. :heart:


    _________________
    PSN: WyrmHero1945

    Dedicated Blade of the Darkmoon.
    Chaos Legion Str weapons covenant
    avatar
    Juutas
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1500
    Reputation : 104
    Join date : 2012-06-30
    Age : 29
    Location : Finland

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by Juutas on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:28 am

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:There should be multiple ways to get over/through shields, I just don't think deadangling is the way to go. Right now, there's one weapon: shotel. The structure FROM attempted to go was that hiding behind your shield and attacking drains your stamina for a larger amount; I think the stamina system needs to be tweaked.

    The concept was good; your armour affected stamina regeneration, but has anyone noticed it significantly affecting a fight? A large shield should offer a lot of protection, at the cost of lower stamina regeneration.

    I think there's a lot of good concepts in how they were going to structure the stamina, but I wish they'd redo it. Make the stamina bar much longer, perhaps double or triple, but make the regeneration much slower. Fighters should get tired in fights. Holding up a huge shield should be tiring, as should wearing heavy armour (but heavy armour should be much more protective). If you get nailed wearing a robe with a two handed sword, backstab or not, it should take off a lot of health.

    Stamina management is actually very important in a fight and it has a lot effect in a duel but it's a shame this game has one more broken item that makes it skipable: green blossoms. I don't use green blossoms, never have and I run out of stamina quite often and sometimes it costs me my life, but I think it's the right way to go.


    _________________
    "Now stay down!" "...okay"

    Twitch.tv: www.twitch.tv/blueberryknights
    Youtube: www.youtube.com/user/Juutas1988
    XBOX: Juutas1988
    PC: Juutas1988

    Sponsored content

    Re: Quick fix for backstabbing

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:21 pm