Why do people think...

I mid roll. I win a lot of duels against 1v1 of all build types. Spears......easiest weapon class to parry in the game for me. Not that I would say a guaranteed win for me since it's definitely not but ultimately I would go with one of Plastic's first comments. It all depends on you and your playstyle. Everything can be competitive. Some things, like a no armor, broken sword at 0 durability user would likely lose a lot more frequently than other paradigms but I can say that in dueling situations I haven't felt handicapped with mid roll.

Then I must question the skill of the casters you face.

As I said, it doesn't matter how much damage you would do if you hit, because they can chip from outside heavy weapon range. I go whole fights, against good players, without taking damage with the mlbh build. people really dont like it

I've done mid roll tanks, I know how they work. I like them, probably more than my other builds, but when I take them to a fightclub, I get brutalized by people who's every movement doesn't leave them open. Your build is better in theory, but in practice thats not how it works out. The defense doesn't make much difference past 350 and the ability to roll all the way through a gfb instead of needing frame perfect timing (difficult at best if the caster can aim, never mind lag) to not eat 800 damage (if I'm lucky and they dont tag me with a gc for another 600 or gcfw for another 1000) is more than worth 300 hp.

Thanks, you to. I'm actually surprised you caught that, often people mistake conviction with narrow mindedness.

Viable =/= Competitive. The reason i like DkS PvP is that there's so many possibilities. Almost anything can work. Hell, put a buff on a broken straight sword and it can deal some nice damage. I have about 15 PvP builds that are all different and all viable. But there will always be things that are more competitive than others. Fast rolling IS more competitive than medium rolling, but that doesn't mean you can't make a decent build with medium roll.

DemonOfFate wrote:Cloud you still forget what i said about the dead angles people take dead angles for granted, and some of these STR weapons have absurd range. Besides i have a bow also, and a pyro flame. And i also like to carry around dung pies/ Poison throwing Knifes.

(Also cloud in your post you assume a lot. I'm more patient then you'd think, and as i just said i have status effect items Toxic being the most deadly)

Status effects only bother people who worry about them. And while Str weapons range are great, their slow. And I was making a point that avoiding hits is more advisable unless you can tank/parry effectively. I've met with a lot of great mid-fatties who will just counter anyone who closes in on them, but kite them with a bow for long enough and they will want to end it quickly.

In the meta, avoiding heavy hits is as important as landing them. Midroll gives you far more options at the loss of agility, but some people find it easier to just dodge then try to take a hit they may or may not survive or go for a parry. As well, some set-ups are horrible against others.

In the end, creativity is always more fun than competitive. I can just kite with a spear and bow all day long, but blah to that. I miss being the king pyro in the forest. Or gargoyle-man. Either way, if you can steamroll people with a dkga, and have fun with it, then steam roll on.

i am working on a strength build that can both fast roll and mid roll, depending on my load-out.

http://mmdks.com/qar or http://mmdks.com/qas

i'm comfortable with both rolling speeds and i have won and lost about equally with both load-outs on this build. neither seems to be better or worse than the other.

it's only those flipping spear users that cartwheel around a hundred times before poking then cartwheeling away that really screw me up. it really makes my teeth grind every time i am paired up with one of these players.

Well i tend to roll back/left to avoid magic i know better than to try and roll into a Soul spear and i tend to leave some room between me and casters and just dodge spells plus spells have a very easy to spot cast up time and i'm not sure if what you said is true you say that someone could easily shoot a soul spear i roll to the right/towards them and hit me with a spear but in my experience there is to long of a cool down time at the end of a spell of course if he has his catalyst in his left hand then maybe but that leaves him open for me to attack him so even then that has a flaw as i could easily double his damage with his spear. Also from my experience everything i said is true to some extent. Also please don't take this as me just bluffing i really am good at PVP to some extent but i won't lie, i am not the god of pvp. I can parry and all but not enough to rely on it entirely (Currently working on my parry skills) I can dodge spells with ease the only time i get hit is when lag is very bad. And well, i do really like Mid roll more than Fast.

oh really? people accuse you of being narrow minded? that's a surprise to me it seems like you are set firm in your ways, but are open to other ideas and even see the flaws in your ways. Also i won't lie there are flaws to mid roll, but there's just enough Ups to make it as good as fast roll IMO.

Nybbles wrote:i am working on a strength build that can both fast roll and mid roll, depending on my load-out.

http://mmdks.com/qar or http://mmdks.com/qas

i'm comfortable with both rolling speeds and i have won and lost about equally with both load-outs on this build. neither seems to be better or worse than the other.

it's only those flipping spear users that cartwheel around a hundred times before poking then cartwheeling away that really screw me up. it really makes my teeth grind every time i am paired up with one of these players.

Have you considered a change of spell? A well placed firestorm-type spell could foul them up enough to let you land a surprise hit afterwards.

I'd throw that fast roll build in the trash. You are naked one hit would likely do 400+ with a uchi and maybe close to 700+ with a heavy weapon. Mid roll seems more viable to me however i'd trade that Black knight tower shield for something that can parry heres what i modified and this is what i would go with. http://mmdks.com/qbb

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i just noticed you said you would change what you were wearing for both mid roll and fast...Silly demon...

Cloud i agree entirely go with whats fun so what if you will die a couple more times than you would if you went with the best build that Is no fun to play vs a build that you enjoy but say you lose 3-4 more battles but those battles that you do win you take much more pride in because you aren't using what is the BEST.

Pride is a scary thing. Trust me on that

As for his build. He'd be better off dumping the armor (it'll only save you from 2-5 extra hits) fast rolling with an UGS or Large/Great club with lighter poise armor and wolf ring. That's if you want competitive. If you want for the lulz, go full giants and giants halberds and just saunter about poking them.

If you wanted to play competitively with a mid roll i'd go with this http://mmdks.com/qbe (Pretty much a copy of my current build =3 ) reason i keep poise at 53 is to keep you on your toes Oh and don't forget to change up weapons! that axe is pretty bad all of the black knight weapons are pretty good, dragon weapons are a no go because they don't scale. But weapons like the greatsword is wonderful

Also cloud i guess pride wasn't the right word to say i'm not saying go around and boast "I beat some guy with a STR BUILD! MID ROLLING!!!" i'm more so saying just think about how less satisfied you would have felt if you just beat him with a buffed uchi in 4-6 hits.

My trick to hitting with soul spear (assuming I'm not setting them up with hcsm) is to start lock off, then lock on at the last second. It homes enough that there is a very good chance it will tag someone exiting a mid roll that way. It also works with great fire ball, but thats fairly easy to aim unlocked with practice. By aiming behind you( so you can't block) and to the direction I believe you will go (i hit with roughly 1/3rd of my gfb casts) I make sure you can't block it and it will go off as you exit a roll. With fast rollers this gets tough because if my timing and aim isn't dead on they'll dodge again and i'll miss, where with midrollers I need only get close because they can't recover in time.

Yeah. A lot. I think its that unless I'm given more and/or more compelling, well reasoned and reasonably objective evidence I won't change my opinion, and (in cases like this) will treat it as fact.

I was talking more about my forest hunter days. But yeah, it's fun to say that you can make a unique build that's also competitive and somewhat crazy. It's why I'm a great scythe advocate and pyromancer advocate.

Well i think its safe to say that both rolls have ups and downs and i'd love to see a player who has mastered mid roll/tank style gameplay go up against someone who has masted light/dex weapons. Quite a battle that would be! still i hope you will be willing to steer players that are set against mid roll to give them a little push and try and seeing how you are a reasonable person, i'm sure you would tell them that if they try it there is a good chance that they will love it more than fast roll, or hate it. Also anyone looking into mid roll/ str weapons watch this martysbrigade99 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7KdG-4eUW8 very nice video

Loved the discussion.

Fat Roll o muerte.

Seriously though, Fat Roll is great if you know how to counter BS by attacking unlocked. Magic is very easy to dodge too. Mid roll and Fast roll are obviously better, but the difference between Fast and Mid roll, is very tiny in terms of effectiveness. Fat Roll is great, but it indeed is harder to use and there are some things you won't be able to dodge because you're too slow (like fighting against multiple guys or Pursuers).

The only thing I admit is 100% impossible to dodge while fat rolling is Pursuers. Even if you roll into them with a perfect timing (which is extremely hard), at least 1 of them will comeback and hit you.

So...

Fast Roll = easiest to use, effective in all situations
Mid Roll = easy to use, effective in all situations
Fat Roll = hardest to use, effect in most situations

As you can see there is a tiny difference between mid and fast.

Want to know what is really viable in a high end competitive setting? Enter a tourney and win with it.

I've learned a lot about competitive gaming over the years and almost any strategy is viable at differing levels of play.

But only once you get up into the higher levels do things start to become not viable anymore. Dark Souls having no ranking system is just a pub stomp situation. It's silly to argue what will work in random invasions because it all depends on the skill of who you are fighting.

I would love to see the souls series on a gaming circuit. But sadly it's not built for that or popular enough.