Why do people think...

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    Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:15 pm

    I keep hearing people saying that you MUST fast roll to even have a chance at PVP. I for one want to stop this rumor, mid roll is very viable.Hell i like it more than fast roll on all my STR guys! So guys, please try to put a stop to this rumor.(This is all from my experience Mid roll is just as viable as fast roll)


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:20 pm

    It's viable. Though, objectively, not as good.

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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:25 pm

    Out of my 5 finished PvP toons, only one of them fast rolls. Tanking is an extremely viable PvP method, and when I build a tank I have more important things to worry about than how fast he rolls. I don't normally dodge attacks with them anyway. So yeah, I agree with you. Mid rolling is fine by me

    In fact, I probably have the lowest amount of PvP success with my fast roller.

    Oh wait, I have 2 fast rollers. I forgot about my dragon.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:28 pm

    Well when you think about it MID roll and FAST roll both have something good, and something bad ill list what i have come to as bad and good on MID.
    Good: More armor, (Less damage) Able to tank attacks for a good tradeout, (I guess this is also applying that anyone who mid rolls is a tank and well...if you are mid rolling naked then i don't know what to tell you) Punish backstab fishers(Do a roll they will try to backstab you when you roll and you do a rolling R1 for 500+ dmg)

    Bad: Slower, Have to think more before attacking because you will not be able to get out quickly, less IV frames.

    Now compare this to Fast roll. You will see that both rolls are just as good as the other.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:30 pm

    That's pretty much how I see it too. With the majority of my toons, if I'm mid rolling I generally also have enough poise to take at least one hit with a big weapon, which I think is an acceptable trade off


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by GkMrBane on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:41 pm

    I think mid rolling is very viable. However my recent toons need a fast roll because I have no shield since im duel weilding.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:47 pm

    That's definitely a good reason to do it. My one toon that does it, fights naked, because he's a dragon, so it's definitely helpful there too. No poise and crappy defense together pretty much require it. I also use Havel's GS with that toon though, so I rely on blocking just as much. It's just good to have the fast roll in case someone tries to cast spells, BS fish, or bleed me through my shield


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:49 pm

    I'm going to disagree, but whatever. Viable yes, but not competitive. Mid rolling gets stomped all over by patient spear users or clever casters in my experience. I don't think I've ever lost to a lone midroller, and not one has gotten me under half hp since the dlc.

    The problem with mid rolling is that any time a dodge is forced (like to avoid a hcsm or dead angle wog) you can't recover in time to avoid a quick follow up, and add to that lag and aoe spells like unlocked great fire ball being murderous unless the dodge timing is absolutely perfectly and spear users laughing as they dance circles around you poking and mid rolling has some serious issues.

    http://mmdks.com/q9w pokes some holes in your "better defenses" theory btw, thats past the diminishing returns point of 350 physical and hits roughly 300 elemental which is good, and better than most heavy armor is going to manage.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:55 pm

    I reject the spear user theory, simply based on the fact that you can carry spears yourself. I realize probably not everyone does this, but all my toons carry a spear, as well as a bow, unequipped for utility purposes. Most of my tanks use great shields as well. It's as simple as counter turtling.

    Anyway, simply the fact that there are those of us that are successful with it make it competitive. Just because there are players who have figured out ways to abuse mid rollers, doesn't mean that all players have.


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:58 pm

    I'm going to disagree also fourm pirate, saying that you will get stomped if you mid roll when fighting competitively is wrong. If you spend time Mid rolling learning the Ins and the Outs than i don't think you would have a problem and you know how i deal with spear users? i just back off, make them take offense i break their stamina with heavy weapons in 1 kick and one attack and boom they now know not to mess with me, of course more experienced players this doesn't always work but you'd be surprised how many people don't expect a kick. add on the great Dead angles on Heavy weapons and i'm pretty good Spears do annoy me, but they are not un-beatable. Also fourm if you are wondering this is the build i use http://mmdks.com/q9x i go with looks and decent armor because i hate looking stupid. I also change my offhand weapon and my pyro flame for a bow sometimes.


    Last edited by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:00 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by cloudyeki on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:00 pm

    What Pirate said. Fast roll lets you hit and dodge more, and while you would most probably lack defense, that means squat when you can just use I-frames to avoid any damage.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:06 pm

    But i find fast rollers easy to predict they are just gonna do hit and run attacks mostly, or try to bleed me out. So you know what i do? i tank their hit and in exchange they take 500+ damage while i take maybe 250+

    Note: This is what most fast rollers do from what i have seen. I am not saying all fast rollers are like this. (Besides i grow tired of just seeing the same 3 builds over and over again, which is why i decided to try mid roll. I do not intend on going back anytime soon.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:08 pm

    I think the heart of this argument, like a lot of other things, comes down to style and being comfortable with your own. I've found, probably just in the last few months, that I play better with heavier characters. I generally don't do nearly as well with lighter faster ones. The heavier ones just compliment my style of play better. We can tell each other we're wrong all day long, but the fact of the matter is we're all going to be more successful with builds that favor the ways we like to play individually.

    Considering that, I'd point out that one side is saying one style of play is wrong, and one side is saying one style of play is just as right as others. My playstyle isn't competitive? Tell that to all my fallen foes.


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by cloudyeki on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:09 pm

    mmdks.com/qa3

    Or they don't bother ever getting close to you and continually strike from outside your range reliably til you get hyper-agressive and make mistakes.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:11 pm

    Well i see no problem opening up new playstyle options to some players. Which is why i decided to make this thread, to many people just try one think kinda like it, and never change. I want to see more unique builds in PVP not the typical Uchi fast roller with a dress on. Also fourm i would love to duel you while i think you'd kick my *** i think i'd enjoy the duel. (I'm not great at PVP but i'm far from bad)


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:14 pm

    Cloud you still forget what i said about the dead angles people take dead angles for granted, and some of these STR weapons have absurd range. Besides i have a bow also, and a pyro flame. And i also like to carry around dung pies/ Poison throwing Knifes.

    (Also cloud in your post you assume a lot. I'm more patient then you'd think, and as i just said i have status effect items Toxic being the most deadly)


    Last edited by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:16 pm

    except they can dodge your attacks while chipping through your shield, which you can't do because they'll tag you exiting the roll.

    I have a better thought out build built just for that.

    http://mmdks.com/qa0

    I also didn't say YOU get stomped, I was generalising mid rollers based on experience. I do mid roll. Its more comfortable for me than fast rolling. It also gets me killed. If a spear user is in kick range, they've screwed up, if they're trying to poke from behind a shield, rather than just blocking your swings then their ability is suspect.

    As for your heavy weapons comment

    http://mmdks.com/qa8 will almost always trade up and will positively crush bs attempts. with deadangles


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:16 pm

    DemonOfFate wrote:Besides i grow tired of just seeing the same 3 builds over and over again, which is why i decided to try mid roll. I do not intend on going back anytime soon.

    A lot of DWGRers who failed to adapt have just settled for mid roll these days. That alone has caused my encounters with mid rollers to skyrocket.

    The ones who ditched the armor for the light roll either just use a completely different load-out, have turned into casters, or just completely suck with the new reality.

    It's so funny when I see that Zweihander+MoM masker+Havel's+pyro user who used to ninja flip now stumble around with mid roll. They're so much more vulnerable now that they've lost their flip.

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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:20 pm

    But fourm, i do have a shield and when i come across spear users i tend to change over to my havel shield and just laugh at them. its quite funny, besides i do have a demon spear as a backup weapon. And the large club is considered a STR weapon so yes you proved my point.

    Also i'm going to assume that you pendant refer to the people that i never even considered to play PVP all they ever did was Flip around and BS (Thats not PVP IMO) But most of those guys don't even PVP anymore they know they suck without the ninja flip so they just settle for invading noobs in the burg And even then i'd say they die 20% of the time lol!


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by The Letter X on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:23 pm

    I think mid-rolling is perfectly viable, but it is definitely harder to pull off. It might be so hard to pull off that it's just not worth it for most people if they want to fight competitively. Those few that can pull it off are scary to fight against though. If a mid-roller knows what they're doing, they can demolish fast rollers since they can stack poise, defense, and extra weapons.

    I still think fast roll is better and that you should pick it over mid roll if you have the chance, but mid rollers can still beat fast rollers if they're good enough.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:26 pm

    Oh my maybe i should explain more why i like to Mid roll lol! one of the main reasons i mid roll is because i love STR weapons and as we all know, they weigh a lot. Thus that led me to using the MID roll and i love it.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:28 pm

    Its on a fast roll build. I didn't prove your point I helped mine. Mid rolling is in no way necessary for "tank" builds that have high defense and use heavy weapons.

    Again, if you'd paid attention, the enemy spear user can strike from outside your range and/or chips faster, even through havels shield. Turtling also leaves you vulnerable to dead angle spells, and if even if you dodge in time you're vulnerable to another cast or a poke as you try to recover.


    Naked sl 1 unarmed people can beat sl 713 people, if they've good enough. Not a valid argument for sl 1 unarmed, naked characters being competitive.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:38 pm

    Even with all that chip damage, one hit from a heavy weapon and ill pretty much have done the same damage if not more. also regarding the large club, i suppose i should have paid better attention and noticed the fast roll on the build you should notice however, that i never said to use a STR weapon you HAVE to mid roll. Overall i think it comes down to preference. Anyways there is a small amount of STR weapons that can be used as a fast roll without wasting a ring slot (IE Havels ring just to use one weapon) and then to use the weapon well you need atleast 53 poise, which means that you cannot use the ring of FaP. And that lowers your HP which well we all know what it does. here is a example if i don't want to go over 40 END i can only take a couple weak pieces of armor and still have the poise i want http://mmdks.com/qaj (Notice this is something i just threw out i'm sure it could be approved. (Also i find spells just as easy to doge with mid roll as they are to do with fast even if they try to get me out of my roll which as i said earlier MID roll requires more thinking you HAVE to think before acting or you will get a Soulspear to the face)


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:48 pm

    Anyways i'd like anyone coming across this thread to keep a open mind about Mid roll in competitve play, keep at it and i'm sure you will love it. This isn't something that can be learned over night try MID roll for atleast a month and then decide if you still think it fails when compared to fast.


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    Re: Why do people think...

    Post by DemonOfFate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:53 pm

    Oh and one final thing. Fourm i'd like to thank you for this discussion nice to see that you are firm yet have a open mind and are mature. I guess it just reflects on darksouls Fans to many other of gaming community's if this were something like Call Of Duty i would have got a reply like this "Lol captin *** over here needs to learn how to play the game"


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