A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Share
    avatar
    xSomax
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 292
    Reputation : 17
    Join date : 2012-09-06
    Location : Nevada, United States

    A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by xSomax on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:22 pm

    not sure if this has been posted yet, but it seemed interesting and plausible, so i thought i'd post it


    "In order to determine who the first born is, we should look to the source material that Dark Souls draws the most from, Shinto mythology.

    The most prominent first born of Shinto myth is that of Hiruko, the son of Izanami and Izanagi. Izanagi and Izanami are known to have fathered many beings, two of the most note being Amaterasu, Goddess of Sunlight, as well as Tsukuyomi, the moon god. I hope I need not point you to the correct parallels drawn from here.

    Now, the thing that must be made of note was that Hiruko was born deformed, he had no bones within his body, if the first born is not incredibly obvious by now, you must be mentally impaired. But for the sake of a complete explanation, I will continue.

    Izanami later died in child birth, the one she gave birth to was Kagu-Tsuchi, the god of fire.

    There is only one female in the story who was close to Gwyn, gave birth to a deformed child, and died creating a being of fire.

    Therefore, Ceaseless Discharge is the first-born of Gwyn, and the Witch of Izalith, his former wife."


    Not sure who came up with this, or whether its been posted or not, but its a plausible theory, and i figured you'd all like a crack at it

    i know this is obvious, but the "sun goddess" and "moon god" are gwynevere and gwyndolin, for those who didn't catch that


    _________________
    i'm always ready to help! its time for some jolly Co-operation! Sun
    Be warned, if you are not an honorable combatant, you shall taste the flames of my ire! twisted
    avatar
    Hue
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1488
    Reputation : 31
    Join date : 2012-12-23
    Age : 19
    Location : Killing the chat

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by Hue on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:44 pm

    My mind will always be blown by the Archives, always.
    This is brilliant
    avatar
    lalliman
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 505
    Reputation : 23
    Join date : 2012-11-06
    Age : 27

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by lalliman on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:53 pm

    This is... perfect. It makes so much sense now. I even always wondered who Gwyn's wife was! It's a wonder that the witch of Izalith never came to mind. It even makes sense namewise: Gwyn's firstborn lost his name, and obviously Ceaseless he wasn't born under the name Ceaseless Discharge.

    Considering he's Gwyn's firstborn, Ceaseless Discharge is kind of an easy fight though silly i mean there's like 5 minutes time between each of his attacks.
    avatar
    xSomax
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 292
    Reputation : 17
    Join date : 2012-09-06
    Location : Nevada, United States

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by xSomax on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:02 pm

    well, he is a giant corrupted version of the original first born


    _________________
    i'm always ready to help! its time for some jolly Co-operation! Sun
    Be warned, if you are not an honorable combatant, you shall taste the flames of my ire! twisted
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by Shkar on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:12 pm

    I find it highly unlikely that Gwyn would sentence his first born son to live in an area where he was naturally unable to inhabit safely, yet kept his second and third born children in the safety of Anor Londo.

    That said, has nobody really though of the Gwyn/WoI connection before? I'd thought of it long ago and just dismissed it as unlikely.


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic
    avatar
    xSomax
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 292
    Reputation : 17
    Join date : 2012-09-06
    Location : Nevada, United States

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by xSomax on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:17 pm

    theres nothing to say the witch didn't take ceaseless against gwyns will. as for dismissing it as unlikely, i thought that the point of these speculation was to try to prove it no matter how improbable?


    _________________
    i'm always ready to help! its time for some jolly Co-operation! Sun
    Be warned, if you are not an honorable combatant, you shall taste the flames of my ire! twisted
    avatar
    Ashran
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 673
    Reputation : 44
    Join date : 2013-01-07
    Age : 25
    Location : Sunlight Shrine

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by Ashran on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:32 pm

    Uhm... Ceaseless Discharge being Gwyns first born? Uhm... As long as i know, Gwyn just exiled him and took his powers, he didnt turn him into a fire demon.

    But i agree with op in the part the witch is the mother of CSD. It is like a fire elemental, living just to guard some clothes... SOME CLOTHES. We all know Bed of Chaos is a plant-like being but where did the witch of Izalith performed the ritual of flame duplication? Maybe IN THAT ALTAR! So CSD is the product of that failed ritual and not Gwyns Firstborn.

    I believe that Gwyns firstborn is the allmighty Brolaire.


    _________________

    “There is real beauty in Dark Souls. It reveals that life is more suffering than pleasure, more failure than success, and that even the momentary relief of achievement is wiped away by new levels of difficulty. It is also a testament to our persistence in the face of that suffering. “
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by Shkar on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:34 pm

    It has indeed been confirmed that Ceaseless is the "Son of Chaos," but that wasn't the point they were getting at. More that his father was Gwyn.


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic
    avatar
    xSomax
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 292
    Reputation : 17
    Join date : 2012-09-06
    Location : Nevada, United States

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by xSomax on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:35 pm

    ceaseless discharge wasn't always a demon ash. it used to be the brother of the witches daughters, and the clothes he's guarding are supposed to belong to one of them. they all turned into what they are as a result of the witch trying to make her own lord soul i believe, or her own first flame, something along those lines. the exception is quelaana, who excaped before she was affected


    _________________
    i'm always ready to help! its time for some jolly Co-operation! Sun
    Be warned, if you are not an honorable combatant, you shall taste the flames of my ire! twisted
    avatar
    DoughGuy
    Duke's Archivist
    Duke's Archivist

    Posts : 11862
    Reputation : 319
    Join date : 2012-02-29
    Age : 23
    Location : The Bakery of Souls, Sydney

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:02 pm

    There are also links to DkS mythology in (I believe) Sumerian mythology, where the son of the sun god was the god of warriors and was exiled for his crimes against his father. Tolvo knows it better. Point is there are lots of parallels to DkS in ancient mythology so we cant be sure which one is correct.


    _________________
    There's more to them - Want to know why your favourite NPC is in lordran? Find out here.
    Farewell to my Noble Knights, while we lived we were mighty. May we meet again in the next game.
    The post that started the legend XD
    avatar
    xSomax
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 292
    Reputation : 17
    Join date : 2012-09-06
    Location : Nevada, United States

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by xSomax on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:33 pm

    true. like i said, i didn't come up with this, just thought the lore nuts would like it


    _________________
    i'm always ready to help! its time for some jolly Co-operation! Sun
    Be warned, if you are not an honorable combatant, you shall taste the flames of my ire! twisted
    avatar
    Ashran
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 673
    Reputation : 44
    Join date : 2013-01-07
    Age : 25
    Location : Sunlight Shrine

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by Ashran on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:55 pm

    xSomax wrote:ceaseless discharge wasn't always a demon ash. it used to be the brother of the witches daughters, and the clothes he's guarding are supposed to belong to one of them. they all turned into what they are as a result of the witch trying to make her own lord soul i believe, or her own first flame, something along those lines. the exception is quelaana, who excaped before she was affected

    Uhmm yep i forgot that lore. I guess i was just rushing for my theory Look Skyward


    _________________

    “There is real beauty in Dark Souls. It reveals that life is more suffering than pleasure, more failure than success, and that even the momentary relief of achievement is wiped away by new levels of difficulty. It is also a testament to our persistence in the face of that suffering. “
    avatar
    dragonblade

    Posts : 14
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-01-15
    Age : 24

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by dragonblade on Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:46 am

    Interesting theory but what about the other daughters of chaos? Would they be gwyn's children also? Unlikely. This could also mean that the witch simply had children with someone else after ceaseless but I'm not convinced.

    I really doubting that the firstborn was seen in the game at all


    _________________
    Not Even A Little Bit :Baal03: :dragon-eye:
    avatar
    Tolvo
    Town Crier
    Town Crier

    Posts : 13287
    Reputation : 542
    Join date : 2012-02-01
    Age : 25
    Location : The Forest, Illinois

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:04 pm

    "An orange ring enchanted by a witch. Reduces lava damage. Since his sores were
    inflamed by lava from birth, his witch sisters gave him this special ring. But fool that
    he is, he readily dropped it, and from that spot, a terrible centipede demon was born."-Orange Charred Ring

    Depending on how you take the word birth, this would mean Ceaseless is not the God of War.

    Since the God of War has a humanoid statue, and if he did bleed lava all over he would be incapable of fighting alongside Gwyn's army.

    Also the Witch of Izalith being the wife of Gwyn is a very old theory, it just isn't discussed as much. If you look at the statues holding the children, the cloth of it resembles the Witch robes.
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by Shkar on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:01 pm

    Tolvo wrote:"An orange ring enchanted by a witch. Reduces lava damage. Since his sores were
    inflamed by lava from birth, his witch sisters gave him this special ring. But fool that
    he is, he readily dropped it, and from that spot, a terrible centipede demon was born."-Orange Charred Ring

    Depending on how you take the word birth, this would mean Ceaseless is not the God of War.

    Since the God of War has a humanoid statue, and if he did bleed lava all over he would be incapable of fighting alongside Gwyn's army.

    Also the Witch of Izalith being the wife of Gwyn is a very old theory, it just isn't discussed as much. If you look at the statues holding the children, the cloth of it resembles the Witch robes.

    His wounds were inflamed by lava Tolvo. They didn't actually ooze the stuff to begin with. That's part of the reason it seems as though the second flame just makes everything the opposite of what it was.


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic
    avatar
    Tolvo
    Town Crier
    Town Crier

    Posts : 13287
    Reputation : 542
    Join date : 2012-02-01
    Age : 25
    Location : The Forest, Illinois

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:29 pm

    The lava ring would be useless to him if the damage was done and he was not constantly in contact with Lava, the Ring would be wanted by him if he was always or at least commonly in contact with it. Inflamed means that the substance was present within the body already, just intensified or caused to act in a certain way. Now then, if Lava caused Inflammation to him, it would have to have some sort of long lasting effect on his body and sores. These Ulcers. This creature is known as the Ceaseless Discharge, and is known to release lava. If his wounds were simple wounds they'd simply give off pus, something from his own body. But he seems to give off lava, meaning it could be of his own body.
    avatar
    lalliman
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 505
    Reputation : 23
    Join date : 2012-11-06
    Age : 27

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by lalliman on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:46 pm

    Tolvo, you realize Ceaseless was humanoid first and transformed into a demon together with his mother and sisters? The fact that he bleeds lava in demon form says nothing.
    How does inflamed mean that the lava is present inside of his body??

    RedderAI
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 223
    Reputation : 12
    Join date : 2012-09-03
    Age : 26
    Location : The Last Frontier

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by RedderAI on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:05 am

    The son of chaos was around since the Everlasting Dragons. His sisters were. Also if the witch of Izalith created the chaos flame that mutated her family into deformed creatures that means the brother was around during the aftermath of the war with the dragons. It's highly unlikely that ceaseless discharge is the first born. I believe it is Solaire. It's too obvious to ignore. Unless from wanted to make a super obvious choice for the firstborn. Seriously it was supposed to be Andre at first. It's Solaire. No doubt in my mind.
    avatar
    lalliman
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 505
    Reputation : 23
    Join date : 2012-11-06
    Age : 27

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by lalliman on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:22 am

    RedderAI wrote:The son of chaos was around since the Everlasting Dragons. His sisters were. Also if the witch of Izalith created the chaos flame that mutated her family into deformed creatures that means the brother was around during the aftermath of the war with the dragons. It's highly unlikely that ceaseless discharge is the first born.
    I don't really see the logic in that? How come that the fact that he was around during the creation of the second first flame make it unlikely for him to be the firstborn?

    Look, like many others i believe Solaire is prolly the firstborn, but it's fun to speculate!
    avatar
    WyrmHero
    Lordvessel
    Lordvessel

    Posts : 8742
    Reputation : 221
    Join date : 2012-02-16
    Age : 29
    Location : The Painted World

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:34 am

    Mmmmm very cool theory, but the God of War a deformed, fragile boy that needs a lava ring for his sores? I don't think so lol. The God of War was so awesome, he didn't need Gwyn's lightning spears to fight. He prefer his weapons, hence the Sunlight Blade miracle. What I would really like to know is wtf did he did that he was cast out from Anor Londo. Either way, he left stripped of his powers and miracles, but his fascination for weapons persists. He prefers to live his days as a lonely blacksmith in the old chruch. The God of War is Andre the Blacksmith people.


    _________________
    PSN: WyrmHero1945

    Dedicated Blade of the Darkmoon.
    Chaos Legion Str weapons covenant
    avatar
    hageshisa
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 734
    Reputation : 22
    Join date : 2012-03-28
    Age : 29
    Location : The couch, Sweden

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by hageshisa on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:00 am

    Is that true Wyrm?


    _________________
    1st PSN: blueberryvibe
    2nd PSN: dreambox_

    If you're THAT good, you shouldn't be whining
    avatar
    WyrmHero
    Lordvessel
    Lordvessel

    Posts : 8742
    Reputation : 221
    Join date : 2012-02-16
    Age : 29
    Location : The Painted World

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:09 am

    hageshisa wrote:Is that true Wyrm?

    It's speculation of course. I hope we get to see more of him in the next game.


    _________________
    PSN: WyrmHero1945

    Dedicated Blade of the Darkmoon.
    Chaos Legion Str weapons covenant
    avatar
    xSomax
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 292
    Reputation : 17
    Join date : 2012-09-06
    Location : Nevada, United States

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by xSomax on Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:42 am

    well, like i said, its not a theory i came up with. and as for that first half of your rebuttal, that doesn't really disprove anything in the theory. he was stripped of his godhood, so it was possible for him to become the giant mass that is ceaseless. his godhood would have stopped that, but if he was already stripped of it at the time, then it would have hit him full blast. if anything that actually helps to fortify the theory. he isn't the god of war anymore, regardless of who it is. so why can't it stand to reason that theres a possibility that its ceaseless?


    _________________
    i'm always ready to help! its time for some jolly Co-operation! Sun
    Be warned, if you are not an honorable combatant, you shall taste the flames of my ire! twisted
    avatar
    WyrmHero
    Lordvessel
    Lordvessel

    Posts : 8742
    Reputation : 221
    Join date : 2012-02-16
    Age : 29
    Location : The Painted World

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:27 am

    But it says it was born with sores. That implies weakness and frailty, which I don't think the mighty God of War had at all in his days.

    An orange ring enchanted by a witch. Reduces lava damage.
    Since his sores were inflamed by lava from birth, his witch sisters gave him this special ring. But fool that he is, he readily dropped it, and from that spot, a terrible centipede demon was born.




    _________________
    PSN: WyrmHero1945

    Dedicated Blade of the Darkmoon.
    Chaos Legion Str weapons covenant
    avatar
    xSomax
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 292
    Reputation : 17
    Join date : 2012-09-06
    Location : Nevada, United States

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by xSomax on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:59 pm

    fair enough. then again, its not like most other candidates have any credible proof either. we don't know anything about this "God of war", his personality, physique, fighting style, nothing. all we know is that its a male that used to be a god. all in all, its a question that may never be answered


    _________________
    i'm always ready to help! its time for some jolly Co-operation! Sun
    Be warned, if you are not an honorable combatant, you shall taste the flames of my ire! twisted

    Sponsored content

    Re: A "first born" theory i stumbled upon

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:01 am