I hope that they...

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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by ClassicBlaze on Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:44 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    ClassicBlaze wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:This debate right here is exactly why i love the worlds from make. No absolute morality, no true good or bad..

    Except way of the white, they're actually and technically the most pure and good ideal in the entire game, with no underlying selfish motive driving them

    Dont they send their undead servants to suicidal missions? like Rhea for instance.

    She willing went herself.. in fact she's the leader of that group. Plus they get nothing for kindling all the bonfires, just aid to others.

    Thats probably why the way of the white has no ranks and you are told it's mission is to kindle, which gives players in other worlds extra estus. I think it's as nice symbolic gesture on the part of the developers.

    Really? Hmmm...I didnt know...though she was asked to do so, and she willingly followed her orders...well...since their cause is good, Ill give them the respect they deserve.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:47 pm

    Yeah, i always hate how way of the white are always seen as 'unfinished' or a 'non-entity' in the covenant system, when really they're actually a very meaningful covenant and the way they are is very much purposeful and intentional.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by FattyOfDoom on Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:57 pm

    Or maybe All-Father lloyd is sending undead to be Gywn's playthings

    Plot twist


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Shkar on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:32 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Well, there isn't really a good ending. Your two choices are die selflessly for the Gods who tyrannise humanity and wish to keep them as slaves to their will, or selfishly extinguish the flame to become the lord of the world..

    Both are kinda immoral in their own right, it's up to you to decide which is better. I think the dark lord ending is better. I mean you simply take the place of the gods in ruling over humanity and using them to your own means, but in that way its the same as the gods.. Only you're not dead(er)

    I've seen a lot of people use that statement about the gods, but I've never seen any evidence to support it. Mind sharing?


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:31 am

    Basically the age of fire is inevitably dying. They realise as with gwyn, a sacrifice is needed to rekindle the flame. As a result gwyn instructed frampt (not sure if frampt knows he's exploiting the undead) to send the undead to their deaths to keep the flame alive.

    Thus frampt came up with the 2 key concepts of this prophecy: the chosen undead, and the successor for lord gwyn. It's an infinitely repeeating concept that allows the gods to use the undead to keep the age of fire going, and as a result keep the gods' rule alive

    Obviously there's many ways to interpret the lore, that is just my take on it

    On a side note I'd also like whoever neg reposed me to come on out and explain their neg rep, just anonymously telling someone their comment sucks isn't very helpful or constructive.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Ashran on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:36 pm

    Like a few users said, theres no good ending. We dont seek for one good, jolly peaceful ending. We must choose the CORRECT ending. To stop the age of fire and face the dark world, face it and survive. Gods can stick their inmortality in their godly ***. I only feel bad for Gwynevere and her amazing chest ahead.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Shkar on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:26 pm

    The only being who says that anything will be able to survive the death of the flame is Kaathe, and he literally leads a legion of soul-sucking demi-demons. That doesn't exactly put him in a great position of trust with, well, anyone. We also never hear anything about the gods being tyrants; in fact, the only tyrant we hear about is the duke of Carim. All of the undead pilgrims seem pretty convinced that the gods of Anor Londo were fairly cool people, so I would rather trust them than someone who would gladly devour my soul.

    Actually, that's an interesting point. If the Age of Dark is going to be so great for humans, why are the darkwraiths stockpiling humanity? To the Archives!


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:37 pm

    Those same followers of the gods brand sorcerers as heretics, are hostile towards even benign undead, and are responsible for things like Anastacia. While Dark isn't in the exact same world as Demon's Souls, do you remember the Valley of Defilement? Where there were plague-ridden men mutated into gangly things with foot-long noses, giant mosquitos, unborn fetuses that attacked you-and that's after a saint-turned-demon came and apparently made things better. It's also worth noting that it's pretty well known that Dark Souls was greatly influenced by the manga Berserk, where the 'angels' and church are portrayed as arrogant, self-righteous religious order of murderers, conquerers and corrupt nobles.
    The bonfires, which blatantly have a connection to Fire, the source of the gods' power, are connected to blatantly messed up women. One had her tongue and feet cut off; one is dying of a demon-puss infection, aside from being turned demon from the waist-down; one is a supposedly hideous religious zealot; and there are the remains of other previous bonfire keepers who, on top of presumably enduring similar atrocities, died as well.
    The gods have obviously not done a very good job leading humanity as a whole, either; there's obviously plenty of war, a strict caste system where the poor are downtrodden and likely half-starving, and as far as we know, have withdrawn from the world and left humankind to survive on it's own (even amongst the undead crises) while expecting them to still serve them. In addition, there are all the lies and illusions in Lordran, including; the state of Anor Londo; the fact that the Chosen Undead will burn alive until the First Flame either goes out anyways or another undead comes along and kills him; that the gods' servants say it's okay to kill the primeval Lords and it isn't okay to kill the younger, inactive gods; the fact that the Dark and Abyss is intrinsically tied to Humanity/humanity; that the gods and their servants look down upon humans. The only god that seems to be active outside of Lordran is Allfather Lloydd, and considering that From pretty blatantly depicts him as the god telling the church to persecute the undead. (albeit, they are often Hollow; obviously, not always) Considering what other things church has done in both this and in Demon's Souls, it's spiritual successor, there's evidence that suggests they, and thus Lloydd, are meant to the oppressive, genocidal soldiers, rather than righteous knights. There is plenty of evidence that the deities are corrupt and should be removed from their thrones. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that becoming the Dark Lord, even if that particular human is the most wise and benevolent warrior in the world, is any better. Keeping the gods in power keeps the world stable, if a craptastic world. Ushering in the Age of Dark may make the world better-or it may make it worse than anything we saw even in the game so far.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Shkar on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:23 am

    Acarnatia wrote:Those same followers of the gods brand sorcerers as heretics, are hostile towards even benign undead, and are responsible for things like Anastacia. While Dark isn't in the exact same world as Demon's Souls, do you remember the Valley of Defilement? Where there were plague-ridden men mutated into gangly things with foot-long noses, giant mosquitos, unborn fetuses that attacked you-and that's after a saint-turned-demon came and apparently made things better. It's also worth noting that it's pretty well known that Dark Souls was greatly influenced by the manga Berserk, where the 'angels' and church are portrayed as arrogant, self-righteous religious order of murderers, conquerers and corrupt nobles.
    The bonfires, which blatantly have a connection to Fire, the source of the gods' power, are connected to blatantly messed up women. One had her tongue and feet cut off; one is dying of a demon-puss infection, aside from being turned demon from the waist-down; one is a supposedly hideous religious zealot; and there are the remains of other previous bonfire keepers who, on top of presumably enduring similar atrocities, died as well.
    The gods have obviously not done a very good job leading humanity as a whole, either; there's obviously plenty of war, a strict caste system where the poor are downtrodden and likely half-starving, and as far as we know, have withdrawn from the world and left humankind to survive on it's own (even amongst the undead crises) while expecting them to still serve them. In addition, there are all the lies and illusions in Lordran, including; the state of Anor Londo; the fact that the Chosen Undead will burn alive until the First Flame either goes out anyways or another undead comes along and kills him; that the gods' servants say it's okay to kill the primeval Lords and it isn't okay to kill the younger, inactive gods; the fact that the Dark and Abyss is intrinsically tied to Humanity/humanity; that the gods and their servants look down upon humans. The only god that seems to be active outside of Lordran is Allfather Lloydd, and considering that From pretty blatantly depicts him as the god telling the church to persecute the undead. (albeit, they are often Hollow; obviously, not always) Considering what other things church has done in both this and in Demon's Souls, it's spiritual successor, there's evidence that suggests they, and thus Lloydd, are meant to the oppressive, genocidal soldiers, rather than righteous knights. There is plenty of evidence that the deities are corrupt and should be removed from their thrones. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that becoming the Dark Lord, even if that particular human is the most wise and benevolent warrior in the world, is any better. Keeping the gods in power keeps the world stable, if a craptastic world. Ushering in the Age of Dark may make the world better-or it may make it worse than anything we saw even in the game so far.

    I can not recall any mention of sorcerers being considered heretics, so if you could key me into that evidence, I would appreciate it. As for firekeepers, we have no idea what happened to Anastacia, Quelaan CHOSE to be a firekeeper, and the Knightess doesn't seem too distraught about her position. It's also pretty evident that the fires don't need firekeepers unless one has been "attuned" to them, in which case they are connected.

    There is no mention of war aside from the Dragon War. No mention of invasions or sieges; nothing. If you are going to use the fact that there is evidence of standing armies, take a look at the world. There are giant demons (yes, even excluding the Izalith ones), drakes, and now, undead. People would be idiots to not have some kind of defense against them. There is also very little mention of a caste system. We have no idea who lived in the upper level of Anor Londo. For all we know, it was mostly humans. You also don't see the gods doing something like disturbing the tomb of an ancient horror. There's a very good reason for Anor Londo to be like it is, given the thousands of zombies. The chosen undead actually MIGHT NOT burn; after all, the flame started dying after the lord souls were taken, and we brought them back.

    The only gods we actually see a decent amount of evidence on are Gwyndolin, Gwynevere, and Lloyd. Lloyd's influence is obvious in the clerics, and Gwyndolin has his blades enforcing order; we never even see the real Gwynevere. For all we know, most of the "gods" don't even have much actual power. Gwyndolin certainly falls short of the perfection tributed to gods, and he was the son of LITERALLY the most powerful man to ever live. As for Lloyd's church being cruel and oppressive, I saw no examples of that. Yes, they hunt undead; so do we. We have ample evidence that BY FAR the vast majority of undead are little more than mindless beasts. Hell, surely the expedition must know that Patches is undead, yet they still trust him enough for him to kick them into a hole. The only evidence of "corruption" in the gods could e argued to be Gwyndolin, and it is obvious that he (perhaps reasonably) has a few screws loose.

    In contrast, we have the Oolacian's who dug up an ancient grave for no given reason, the Four Kings who sold the souls of New Londo to their scaly master, Arstor (w/e his name is, duke of Carim) who uses the souls of his subjects to fight his phobia of curses/death. Compared to that, we have the gods who slew a planetful of dragons. Not "a few," or a "dozen." A whole world of dragons. Each of which could easily destroy an entire kingdom by themselves. Hell, the undead curse didn't even start popping up until the flame started dying, and there literally isn't a single character who claims to be glad for the undead curse. The closest is Logan, who uses it as an excuse to enter Lordran, which would otherwise be suicide since it's filled with undead.

    I honestly cannot say a single thing about Demon's Souls, as they never released it for Xbox.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:55 am

    Look at these

    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Great+Magic+Barrier
    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/White+Seance+Ring

    From these two descriptions, along with information from other items related to Havel, some members of the church obviously have an issue with sorcerery. In the prior game, Demon's Souls, the priests and the magicians never stopped arguing or saying the other was a fool. Magic is viewed in a negative connotation by most of the public and by the church, similarly to how Europe did in our own history. Havel's knights are essentially Crusaders, only that they were warring with Seath-even though he was Gwyn's ally. By adding those two descriptions together, it's certainly possible that Havel was even once the head bishop of Thorolund.

    Yes, most undead are Hollow. Based on both the very character you and I play as, as well as many npcs, though, being undead does not inherently also mean being Hollow.

    While, yes, at least the Lady Darkling and the Fair Lady chose to become Fire Keepers, that is by no means a kind or easy thing to be-
    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Fire+Keeper+Soul

    The crestfallen warrior, while he's just suggesting a possibility regarding her, gives information about society at large in Dark Souls in his statement, "They probably cut her tongue out back in her village, so that she'd never say any god's name in vain.
    How do these martyrs keep chugging along? I'd peter out in an instant." This apparently isn't that uncommon or unheard of-similar enough to our Europe when it's technology was at about the same level, and of society was comprised of similar mindsets.

    There's also a list of items that resist the effects of the Dark-purging stones and both types of rings of sacrifice- that are created from human sacrifices. Please note that the bonfire keepers and the Chosen Undead technically are these as well-they just don't get to die.

    As for my statement on wars-if they were only killing hollows, then they wouldn't be using so many swords, polearms, heavy steel armor and such; those, at least in our own world, by trial-and-error and the practical uses of arms and armor. Most of the weapons and armor presented is meant for killing living people; there simply is no way that the amount of tools of warfare present would have been created if there was no war. Therefore, the human nations being led by the gods apparently aren't so peaceful; rather, they seem to engage in about the same, or perhaps even more, armed conflicts than did Europe. And, again, considering content from Demon's Souls, and that there is a heavy Berserk influence, (among others) it would just be odd if there was little war. Here's a quote from a merchant in Demon's Souls in regard to the kingdom being overtaken by demons and the men all being driven mad when his soul was eaten; "But hell, at least the demons don't send us to our deaths in battle!" The main character of Berserk, Guts, was a mercenary for his entire life before becoming a demonslayer. And, considering how dark Dark Souls is, I really think there's war going on. If kind, benevolent and wise gods are leading humans, then there probably would be little war.
    In regards to the proposition that demons and other monsters are in the mainland-there's nearly nothing, if anything, to support that. There are only two demons even outside of Izalith in Lordran, which is pretty small. There are no item descriptions, though there are plenty of the incidents regarding undead.

    Also- http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Darkmoon+Blade+Covenant+Ring
    If this is blasphemy, then the presentation of the gods and religion certainly seems to be a bad one. While, yes, Gwyndolyn is possibly more mentally unstable than most of the other deities, at least he's still there; the others just up and left. Anor Londo, especially after quotes from Oolacile, was the city of the gods. Based on quotes from Gough, Ciaran and the entire feud between Fire (gods) and Dark, (humans) it seems that gods and men mixed as little then as they do in the current day.
    I also wonder what

    There actually is one character who is blatantly glad to be undead, though, likely less so after he goes Hollow-Laurentius. "In this land, pyromancers earn a certain respect.
    The Witch of Izalith, one of the legendary Lords, is the godmother of pyromancy. So, the day I became Undead, I was ecstatic. I felt as if I'd been chosen to attune myself to the ancient arts. … Of course, it wasn't all that romantic in the end…"

    And Solaire, while not happy about being undead, is apparently quite willing: "I became undead to pursue this..."

    Ultimately, I think that From set out to make a similar situation for the ending of Dark Souls as with Demon's Souls. In Demon's Souls, after seeing the world and all the atrocities in it, you finally find out how and why demons followed Old King Allant from his secret journey; he became convinced that the kindest, most merciful thing he could do for the world was to end it. He purposefully awoke the Old One, essentially literal Nothingness with a will and an infinite apatite for souls, that would, left to its own devices, eventually erase the world itself. The court was apparently very corrupt even before there were demons; the miners of Stonefang worshipped a demon dragon as a god, even though society avidly followed a single God similar to the Abrahamic one. Latria seemed to be a prison even before there were demons, and was actually taken over as revenge. The shrine of storms was a long-dead land of men who worshipped wind and death; they practically lived only for the honor of dying. And worse yet, was the Valley of Defilement. It was a land filled with lepers, criminals, plague, monstrous insects and leeches, towering waterfalls of plague-ridden blood, swarming with unborn fetuses that attacked anything that entered-and that was after a living saint, Astraea, became a demon, entered the Valley, and actually improved the conditions.
    At the end, the player is offered the choice; does s/he lull the Old One back to slumber and save this terrible world? Or do you aid the Old One, for greed or for a suicidal mercy? The game intentionally raises the question of whether or not the world should be saved. After considering all the information in Dark Souls, I think it raises the a very similar question: is Fire and the gods worth saving? FromSoftware intentionally gave no clear answer.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Shkar on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:36 am

    Havel alone does not paint a picture of cleric's as a whole. Havel likely hates sorcery for being founded by Seath, who he hates for being a dragon (Havel did fight, and likely lost many allies to, the dragons). However, at no point does it ever say anything about Rhea, or her followers, or any other cleric having an issue with sorcery. Hell, Gwyndolin uses something very similar (if not the same) and his soul can be used to make a catalyst.

    While not every undead is a hollow, each one inevitably becomes one. Understand, this isn't a country dealing with an issue like, "Anyone can become a terrorist." This is an issue where, "Everyone who gets bitten by a squirrel becomes a mindless monster who wants nothing more than to kill every living thing around it." If a zombie outbreak were to occur right now, even if it took a while to "incubate," (assume enough time had passed that they deemed a cure impossible) many governments would still purge all that became infected. For that matter, it never says the knights hunt undead that AREN'T hollows.

    Even if her village had cut out Anastacia's tongue, that's not the work of the gods. That is the work of humans, plain and simple.

    The bite-rings and the curse-breaking stone are all related to Arstor, duke of Carim; he had the bite-rings made and hoards the stones. Again, a human caused the atrocities.

    On the topic of wars, my intent wasn't that the countries had no war; what I was trying to get across is that there isn't evidence that the countries are going about holding weekend wars for sport. Sure, there is probably come conflict; almost undoubtedly so. However, there are other threats out there. The beast spoken of in the Evil Eye Ring, the drakes and other natural predators (there were dragons and hydras, who can claim there aren't natural minotaurs or something weirder out there), in addition to the threat of mindless, aggressive corpses. Hell, the rats, slugs, and mosquitos in that world become large enough to threaten a human. Imagine a flock of birds like the Crow that shuttles you to the Asylum, only something more predatorial, like hawks.

    On the topic of blasphemy, by the definition of the word, that is blasphemy. In unmasking him, you are showing "disrespect" and going against the wishes of a god. That is blasphemy. There are numerous gods in the world; each of them probably has their own religion. And while Velka and Gwyndolin are obviously rather cruel in their control, from what I have seen of Gwyenever, that is not an absolute rule. As for men and gods not mixing, that too is understandable; the gods are "immortal," but the humans are not. Having a god become fond of a human would be like you having a pet fly and adoring it. It will be dead in what passes as a blink of the eye for you.

    On the topic of people enjoying undeath, you have a man who is driven solely by his one obsession, and a man who has no care for society and is a pariah. I LIKE Laurentius; he seems like a very nice guy. You can not try to tell me that he is the most socially adjusted person. It is completely reasonable for someone to be happy to get the recognition of fear when they have been ignored or harassed for much of their life.

    As for DeS, from what you just summarized (and nothing more), I can conclude that it seems to me that lulling the Old One to slumber is the moral "right" choice. Yes, the world may be almost completely FUBAR. However, I assume there are still some innocent people in the world, no? In allowing the world to be destroyed when you had the power to stop it, you are saying that the life of every living thing is not worth the trouble of acknowledging and trying to prevent such cruelties in the future. Even if 75% of the world's population had committed heinous acts, I don't think I could bring myself to bring the world and, more importantly, those 25% of people who are good to extinction.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:55 pm

    The sacrifice rings were "created in a sacrificial rite of Velka, the Goddess of Sin." If Velka has an issue with human sacrifice, then using that ritual to make a ring shouldn't work.

    We actually don't know that undead absolutely become Hollow; the Chosen Undead still hasn't at the end of the game. Seigmeyer doesn't unless he nearly dies; Solaire doesn't until he willingly attaches a glowing parasite to his head; The crestfallen warrior doesn't until he apparently goes down into New Londo; Vince and Niko are basically killed and rise again as Hollows. Hollowfication seems to be likely, not inevitable. Furthermore, think about for one second; do you really think the mainstream church is going to just let undead walk around when there's an increasing hollow problem? Based on our own history, that seems really unlikely.
    These magical creatures exist in Lordran, a land filled with creatures on par in might with deities. Look at what magic is available outside of Lordran, based on the spells and a few items; most weapons seem to only go up to +5, most sorcerer's strongest spell seem to be great heavy soul arrow, and the miracle wrath of the gods is god-like in strength. Aside form Lordran, Dark Souls is set in a low-magic world; outside of clerics and actual students, most people probably haven't seen anything supernatural or magical at all, besides undead. The ONE monster mentioned in Astora very well may be the same as European folklore; a freak incident. They even trapped the killing-eye power of the monster in the ring, and look at how weak that ring is. Fully fledged knights are apparently about soul level 5 when most of Lordran is SO much higher. While, yes, there may be something other than humans and undead, there's NO mention of them. Even if there were, they would apparently be fairly weak creatures, considering that society has been fighting them with only +5 to +10 weapons.

    In Demon's Souls, it's seems to be more akin to 95% or more of people are greedy, murderous, or likely blinding following a false god and persecuting magicians. The magicians claim that the 'God' the faith worships is actually the Old One, the ultimate source of the soul arts, (magic, be it miracles or sorcerery, all comes from the manipulation of soul energy) and Saint Urbain even says that holy miracles only began to appear again when the soul arts returned; the faith took it as a sign that God wanted them to stop the demons and magicians.
    Stockpile Thomas, one of the kindest characters in the game, abandoned his wife and daughter when the demons came, even if he later regrets it. They died, and the game makes it quite clear that he would have died as well, had he stayed.
    Blacksmiths Ed and Baldwin, while they are edgy and unpleasant, are pretty much without fault-though Ed, especially, is more obsessed with his craft than Laurentius by far; he doesn't even like talking to the main character.
    Saint Astraea, a living saint, voluntarily became a servant of the Old One-an archdemon-and came to the Valley of Defilement, actually improving conditions.
    The great Tower of Latria, based on it's architexture, seems to have been a prison both before and after the demons came, and it's possible that the wealth of torture devices present may have been in use well before the demons arrived. The old man who became an archdemon and ruled over Latria came back there out of revenge.
    Patches the Hyena was present. He sets a trap for you twice.
    One of the survivors in the mining town, a filthy old man, actually comments on how now that everyone leaves him alone, he can take the random ores and materials lying around and make a living; he goes so far as to thank God for this 'golden opportunity'.
    A man from the East, Satsuki, has the main character go retrieve a powerful magic katana for them, at the promise of recompense. Upon handing it to him, he tests it on the main character.
    Ostrava, surmised to be Prince Arriona Ostrava Allant, is the kindest and most pleasant character in the game. The main character saves his life three times total; at the end, he faces what his father, the king, has become, along with what the rest of the world is. He commits suicide after asking you to kill his own father.
    The maiden in black, in order to lull the Old One back to slumber, must go to sleep with it-forever.
    There's a reoccuring theme throughout the game; being good sucks. It does not suck as in you give up half your money or don't get your job because you won't stab someone else in the back; (figuratively speaking-mostly) it sucks as in your friends will die, your allies will turn on you, you'll watch as those you save turn evil, mad, or suicidally depressed, and eventually their life goes back to sucking anyways. The question the end of the game raises is not 'Is the world worth saving'; it blatantly suggests that this world and life in it is so bad that killing it and everyone inside it is actually euthanasia-is mercy. I'm not saying that killing it is the right thing to do; I'm saying that the game intentionally makes the decision a lose-lose situation. It's up to the player to decide which is the lesser evil, and I think it's the same for Dark Souls. Both keeping the gods in power and ushering in the Dark suck; it's up to the player to decide which one sucks less.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by MosquitoPower on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:55 pm

    ^Wow intense stuff, you both make some good arguments.

    My take is that Patches knows something about the clerics he never really explains in either game.

    He does not seem like a “great cause” type of a guy so I can’t imagine him holding such resentment of clerics without a personal reason.

    Also does not seem to fit that he does “bad things” so does not like for them to do “good things”. Otherwise he would just say something like “I hate those no good do gooders!” Patches is pretty blunt is most of his descriptions of people.

    I find it interesting that he says this:
    "Oi, have you met Petrus, that self proclaimed cleric?
    Believe me on this one, bruv/my love…The man is scum.
    Don't you be fooled by his claims to do good.
    They're all the same, those rotten clerics."

    What makes clerics rotten?
    How does Patches know Petrus is scum? Is it because Petus bribed/told Patches to “elemenate” Rhea?
    Or does Patches know Petrus personally?

    Why would Patches say clerics are “all the same”?
    Is Patches some kind of ex-cleric that quit when he learned too much?
    Or is Patches the cleric's "go to guy" when they need dirty work done?


    So many questions.... Shrug



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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Shkar on Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:42 pm

    Once again, I won't talk about DeS much, as I don't know the slightest bit about it. I would think that the main reason so many of the people are greedy and selfish is because the world sucks so much, but that's not here or their since I can't back that up.

    For Velka and the sacrifice rings, I said that she may be one of the few gods who is actually cruel. Remember, she is the goddess of sin. If one god being cruel says that their species should be exterminated, what does that say about humans, who, again, literally form an army who want nothing more than to murder you and suck out your soul.

    As for the odds of hollowfication, it seems guaranteed based solely on the basis of probability. Heck, look at RL humans. Not every human has died, but so many have and NONE have been immortal; thus, we know that humans ARE mortal. Look at the sheer number of hollows in Lordran. it seems highly likely that the vast majority of undead are, in fact, in Lordran. Yet we never hear a story of an undead who avoided going hollow for a long time. We don't even know how long of a time period the game goes over. Hell, based on the sun as you progress through the game, it seems like it only takes a day or two for our journey. In that time, we can literally see the majority of non-hollows go hollow. If it IS a process triggered by despair, that is something that will happen to everyone eventually.

    On the topic of monsters and weapons, I find it very unlikely that there aren't any monsters anywhere else in the world. You have drakes, who can fly all over, dragons who lived around the world, hydra's and other sea monsters, you probably fill the ocean, and we see evidence of at least one "demon" in the outside world. But the talk of weapons doesn't really apply; the +10 and +15 normal weapons don't actually DO anything but toughen and sharpen the blade. It doesn't add magic (probably) or anything of that sort; it's just a very well crafted blade. And the human countries likely have ARMIES to deal with demons and drakes and such. Not every human would be on par with our super-human of a character; they couldn't slay a demon 20 times larger than them in a 1v1 fight. But together, they might.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:00 pm

    Zerg rush is a term for a reason.

    Essentially, I'm with shkar. It might be a "lose lose" but no man is fit to decide anothers life isn't (or is) worth living. Thus I side with the gods, who arn't nice but also arn't a hord of dementors.

    If it was just my life I might chance walking away, but walking away risks thousands of lives that wouldn't be mine to risk.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:18 pm

    My point isn't that the world should be destroyed; in fact, I, individually, prefer the 'save the world' option. I'm only pointing out that you stated that there's basically no evidence supporting the view that the gods are tyrants who should be removed from power when there is actually plenty of it. There is not necessarily enough evidence to say that the Dark is better-in fact, my point is that From intentionally left that question up to the player to answer.

    My point with the weapons is that the weapons and armor available to the Chosen Undead isn't what soldiers and knights are using; the Chosen Undead is wielding ancient artifacts and weapons made from the souls of demons and gods. Based on what items and the descriptions of them there are that link to the world outside of Lordran, I really think that they wouldn't survive if there were that many demons, drakes and such. There's pretty few demons even in Lost Izalith, the place where they're coming from. We actually don't know anything about dragons outside of Lordran; for all we knew before the trailer of Dark Souls 2, there were only even drakes in Lordran; even now, there may be extremely few. There's only a single reference to a monster besides undead in the world outside of Lordran, and that was apparently quite a problem for Astora.
    I make no pretense that the Dark is mostly, if not completely, bad. I'm just saying that there's enough evidence for it to be reasonable for someone to think that it's not as bad as continuing the rule of the gods.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Shkar on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:33 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:My point isn't that the world should be destroyed; in fact, I, individually, prefer the 'save the world' option. I'm only pointing out that you stated that there's basically no evidence supporting the view that the gods are tyrants who should be removed from power when there is actually plenty of it. There is not necessarily enough evidence to say that the Dark is better-in fact, my point is that From intentionally left that question up to the player to answer.

    My point with the weapons is that the weapons and armor available to the Chosen Undead isn't what soldiers and knights are using; the Chosen Undead is wielding ancient artifacts and weapons made from the souls of demons and gods. Based on what items and the descriptions of them there are that link to the world outside of Lordran, I really think that they wouldn't survive if there were that many demons, drakes and such. There's pretty few demons even in Lost Izalith, the place where they're coming from. We actually don't know anything about dragons outside of Lordran; for all we knew before the trailer of Dark Souls 2, there were only even drakes in Lordran; even now, there may be extremely few. There's only a single reference to a monster besides undead in the world outside of Lordran, and that was apparently quite a problem for Astora.
    I make no pretense that the Dark is mostly, if not completely, bad. I'm just saying that there's enough evidence for it to be reasonable for someone to think that it's not as bad as continuing the rule of the gods.

    My point was indeed to prove that the gods aren't bad or, at least, aren't bad enough to risk the world to overthrow. I think that putting the humans in charge would probably be worse, as the humans have a worse track record. Heck, I was only arguing about the DeS part because I didn't want to let a point just go unaddressed; but it sounds to me as if Boletaria (that is the DeS world, right?) is led by humans and is kind of a terrible place. But really, the only proof you really showed for the gods corruption is:

    1. Velka doesn't care about human sacrifice (She IS the goddess of sins; not the goddess of equality and justice)

    2. Gwyndolin is deceptive and arrogant (You're right about this one; he is kind of a ****. But he isn't a tyrant. He doesn't try to kill you just for not serving him, for instance.)

    3. Lloyd MAY be having his armies punish and slay innocent undead (The undead are basically a zombie apocalypse scenario when they go hollow, which, for all intents and purposes, is a 100% chance.)

    4. The gods have abandoned the humans (No real proof for this. We only know that they fled Anor Londo, not where to or why. If it was a matter of fleeing the undead, it's kind of obvious that Lordran was being overwhelmed at the time.)


    If your point was mainly that the gods aren't using their vast powers to stop the threats attacking the humans, there is a decent explanation for that. It seems like the majority of the gods aren't fighters. Sure, Gwyndolin, the ONE god we see, has the ability to fight. It even seems likely that Lloyd is decently powerful, as he leads warrior-clerics. But trying to say that Gwynevere or her husband (or Fina) are simply too lazy to stop the threats facing them is likely false.

    As a point I just thought of, the Firekeepers (human, for the most part) who are intrinsically bound to the flame, who you would think would know the most about the flame, support the flame. Anastacia outright states as much when she claims that you linking the fire means she can "die a human."


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by Ashran on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:56 pm

    This is now a lore post. Stand back, mortals.


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    Re: I hope that they...

    Post by FattyOfDoom on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:35 pm

    Yeah you guys derailed my thread silly


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