The true essence of Dark Souls

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    PlasticandRage
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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by PlasticandRage on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:28 pm

    aceluby wrote:This is kind of a stupid discussion. It's built into the game and is 100% avoidable. Don't like it? Don't do it.

    Kind of how I feel about it too.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by xSomax on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:19 pm

    densetsushun wrote:Anyone arguing the "you have rights unless they infringe on the rights of others", I agree entirely, in real life. This is a game, where rules like these don't apply unless it's moderated as such. This is why MMO's have rules against it and DkS doesn't. It's not even a traditional multiplayer setup.

    my point on that one was about glitches. if you can't win through intended parameters, don't do it. like the dragon roar glitch. you ever been roared off a ledge 20 feet behind you cuz you can't do ****?

    i'm fine with griefing, just not against completely new players. you wanna troll some guy in sens or anor or even blighttown and depths, go right ahead, i have no complaints, but intentionally destroying a completely new players game has the possibility of them leaving before they acclimate to the skill curve in dark souls, which means intentionally lowering the amount of players in the community. thats just not cool.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Hydreigon11 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:22 pm

    Yeah it's always nice to help a noob through the game, teach him PvP and then watch him invade you, and you kick his bootay. And he tries again and again, and you see him getting better and then, when it's time, you tell him he's ready, like releasing a chick from the nest. It's amazing to see how people can develop in this game. I once co oped with a guy through the game, and in this time he became a good friend of mine and he's not too shabby at PvP either, after I taught him a few tricks.

    To summarise, don't turn new players off to the game, sure kill them etc. but don't mess their game up, it ain't fun


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by densetsushun on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:26 pm

    I don't particularly agree with giving new players unnecessary difficulty either, but my point was that as it's within the game parameters griefers aren't breaking any rules other than what social contracts we place for ourselves and our fellow DkS players out of our own sense of morality.

    And I agree that glitching is bad, but hey, it was within what was then the game's parameters(unintended or not), so I don't think glitchers shouldn't glitch either. That doesn't mean I don't want them to, but they're only, in my opinion, cheapening their own experience of the game.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by LunarFog on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:31 am

    Hydreigon11 wrote:

    To summarise, don't turn new players off to the game, sure kill them etc. but don't mess their game up, it ain't fun

    Well not for them, but they really have no say in things when I invade them.

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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:44 am

    Ahhh, so then sparkly-twinkly-lizard was right. It is about "control".


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by LunarFog on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:46 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:Ahhh, so then sparkly-twinkly-lizard was right. It is about "control".

    Lol. Don't try to psychoanalyze me. It's about fun. Like I said. It's just coincidence that they literally have no control over what I do to them when I invade.

    Edit: In fact, I have no idea what would even give you the idea that it's about control for me.

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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:53 am

    LunarFog wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Ahhh, so then sparkly-twinkly-lizard was right. It is about "control".
    It's just coincidence that they literally have no control over what I do to them when I invade

    That, it isn't a coincidence. They can't exactly ignore you, at least not without you popping up top screw them over later. They have no choice but to play by your rules.

    If I can't tell you how to play, then you can't tell me what to do either. So if I want to psychoanalyze you, then I will.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by LunarFog on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:58 am

    [quote="Sloth9230"]
    LunarFog wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Ahhh, so then sparkly-twinkly-lizard was right. It is about "control".
    It's just coincidence that they literally have no control over what I do to them when I invade/quote]

    That, it isn't a coincidence. They can't exactly ignore you, at least not without you popping up top screw them over later. They have no choice but to play by your rules.

    If I can't tell you how to play, then you can't tell me what to do either. So if I want to psychoanalyze you, then I will.
    Lol. Don't sound so upset. It's annoying to psychoanalyze people, so if you're going to do it, you can at least try your best to make your conclusion make sense.

    Just because I have control, doesn't mean my motive is about control. I don't know if you realize this but it seems like you're really struggling to think what you want to think, even though it's wrong.

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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:11 am

    Alright then

    By your own admission: You are skilled enough to PVP with the big boys.

    However, you don't (atleast not most of the time). Why not? because they're not dumb enough to fall for your tricks. So instead you look for people who are i.e. "new players". In other words, the only reason you pick on new players is because they're the only who would fall for your tricks. Only new players would allow you to get control of the situation. An experienced player would either ignore you, suicide(death doesn't mean squat to them anyway, it only means something to new players), disconnect, or just fight you cause they don't care. So yes, it is about control. You want people to play by your terms and only your terms.

    If you want to troll, then troll people on NG+. We'll see how many of them actually fall for your silly little tricks.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Aznul on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:21 am

    It probably isnt about control, so much as it is feeling powerful, or expressing power over others. It is similar, but not quite the same. But what is so bad about psychoanalysis? It is simply a way of trying to understand someone. That is neither wrong nor harmful, so why let it bother you?

    Though the idea of tricking someone into killing an npc is rather upsetting, making the game unneccessarily difficult and making someone quit playing the game entirely just for your own pleasure is frankly disgusting. Don't do things that will decrease the amount of new players getting into the game, that hurts everyone.

    Though occaissionally tormenting someone for laughs is mostly harmless, dont do it to the people just starting out, because they quite possibly can't handle it. Sen's fortress and beyond, I say anything goes (besides getting the giant blacksmith killed, he is invaluable to the player and personally I think he is pretty cool).

    The real issue here is restraint. Don't make someone who knows nothing about the game go through hell, because they will likely be unable to handle it, and if you aren't good enough to troll the more skilled players, then that's on you.

    I honestly don't see why we can't all just show a little respect for one another. I love to sunbro and rarely pvp because i prefer an environment of respect over an attitude of dominance. But thats just me.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:26 am

    "With great power, comes great responsibility" silly

    EDIT: I'ma go kill myself right about now... Prostration


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by xSomax on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:43 am

    wow, someone who understands! go aznul! as for your stance on PvP thats why i PvP in the burg. you'll get those guys that just try to dominate you sure, but there are a majority of invasions(or invaders, i suppose) that will fight an honorable duel. a bow, a second to buff a weapon or eat a grass, and then a brawl using the best of your abilities. whether i win or lose, in these kinds of fights, i walked away the winner, because i learned something through combat with someone superior to me, and have respect for that person.
    thats how my PvP in the burg first started. i invaded a certain person over and over(a couple others here and there) but this person was good enough to wipe the floor with me in any cosplay he wanted. but i kept going at it, getting better each time, and almost killed him the last time. he was a fun and respectable person throughout, and was even rooting for me to win by the end, though i never did(he had to go).thats how i learned to PvP. this guy threw just about every different kind of cosplay and magic and weapon that was available at the time at me. so not ALL PvP is Power-hungry asses. just a lot of it(less so in the burg)i'm fine with PvP, and i'm fine with griefing, Just not on totally new players. its as simple as that.
    why do it? so you can get some sick amusement out of it? theres no challenge, so its not like your getting any sense of accomplishment. your just needlessly torturing a new player, just so you can get your sick kicks.
    what sloth said is true, whether he thinks it or not. this may be a game, but having power DOES come with responsibility. in any regular RPG, this would all be fine. in something where another person is involved its NOT.

    Sorry, my inner white knight is starting to come out, so i'm probably gonna get more "moralfag"ish as this progresses.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by LunarFog on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:14 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:Alright then

    By your own admission: You are skilled enough to PVP with the big boys.

    However, you don't (atleast not most of the time). Why not? because they're not dumb enough to fall for your tricks. So instead you look for people who are i.e. "new players". In other words, the only reason you pick on new players is because they're the only who would fall for your tricks. Only new players would allow you to get control of the situation. An experienced player would either ignore you, suicide(death doesn't mean squat to them anyway, it only means something to new players), disconnect, or just fight you cause they don't care. So yes, it is about control. You want people to play by your terms and only your terms.

    If you want to troll, then troll people on NG+. We'll see how many of them actually fall for your silly little tricks.

    because they're not dumb enough to fall for your tricks.

    An experienced player would either ignore you, suicide(death doesn't mean squat to them anyway, it only means something to new players), disconnect, or just fight you cause they don't care.


    Out of your entire paragraph I still hardly saw any reason why it would be about control. You don't seem to get that just because I have control, and I need control to some degree, doesn't mean that I do this because of control. Straight fighting gets boring, and like you said yourself, experienced players are hard to mess with. Finding weird ways to cause grief by other means, never gets boring though. But I suppose someone like you will find any excuse they can to think a certain way about something even if it's clearly misguided.

    Actually...why do I even care? Whether someone thinks I do this because of control or because it's fun doesn't change the fact that I'll keep doing it.

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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by LunarFog on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:19 pm

    Aznul wrote:It probably isnt about control, so much as it is feeling powerful, or expressing power over others.


    No. If I want to feel powerful I use my SL 99 "PERFECTION" build and beat people in the township and the 1v1 arena. The feeling of beating someone and knowing that I'm better than them even though they're at their absolute best makes me feel powerful.

    As fun as it is fighting new players who don't even know how to handle me and fall into my traps, I still know that they're weaklings. That's why I mess with them and see how much long-lasting damage I can cause instead. It's just funner that way

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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:24 pm

    I think you're rather sadistic.. 'seeing how much long term damage you can cause', are you serious?

    It's pathetic, really.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:32 pm

    LunarFog wrote:
    No. If I want to feel powerful I use my SL 99 "PERFECTION" build and beat people in the township and the 1v1 arena. The feeling of beating someone and knowing that I'm better than them even though they're at their absolute best makes me feel powerful.

    As fun as it is fighting new players who don't even know how to handle me and fall into my traps, I still know that they're weaklings. That's why I mess with them and see how much long-lasting damage I can cause instead. It's just funner that way

    Clearly there is some need to feel powerful, or else you wouldn't need to see how much influence you have over the way others play. You say you do it for the fun, but the way you have fun is through extending your power over others i.e. control.

    I was never under the impression that you cared or that I could convert you into a non-griefer. If you cared what others thought of you then you wouldn't be a griefer period. I just think it's sad that people who supposedly "love" this game, are the ones ruining it.



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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Odinbear on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:43 pm

    Lol GAnkers & Griefers. Wtf. It's part of the game.. Should we call the co-opers nerds an do-gooders?
    Don't get me wrong, I just find the whole Griefers, GAnkers thing to be so ... Should I say childish? ( said because " not fair" & " unfair" are often used when players lose to an invader or invade and get kilt 3v1). Obvious to me the game was designed to be played just as everybody has been playing it.

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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Odinbear on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:11 pm

    I liked the video, while I wouldn't do any of those things, had the catacombs bridge thing done to me early on ( but I was on it as it flipped). Sucks, but hey, them red invaders are the bad guys, remember?
    Made me more cautious, is all.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:38 pm

    I wouldn't call them bad guys, lore-wise, they do have a purpose besides invading for sh!ts&giggles. Depending on whether Kaathe is evil, they could be well-intentioned extremists or simply unwitting pawns. PVP'ers are more akin to bloodknights and simply wish to test their own strength. So no, none of them are bad guys by default. Griefers and Gankers are because their reasons are purely selfish.

    Even then, I'm fine with most gankers and even some greifers. Here's my list: harmless greifers > gankers > low level OP greifers > gankers/greifers who disconnect when they lose > anybody who tries to ruin a new players game.

    The way I see it, there are greifers who troll and there are griefers who are simply malicious in their intentions. There's a big difference between them.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Odinbear on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:42 pm

    Ok , chaotic evil guys.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by xSomax on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:52 pm

    odin. you're missing the point. lunar can do whatever the hell he wants, and thats fine. what we're saying is that ruining a new players experience is hurting the community. imagine if he invaded you throughout your first playthrough and basically made it impossible to do anything. would you have kept playing? probably not. thats the problem i have with it. about when they get to the depths, i don't care. maybe even the church. but invading a totally new player, who hasn't played for more than about half an hour maybe, then *** up his save? theres no reason for it. its just for sick kicks. it turns off new players who would otherwise become great players, and maybe even join the forum. but instead, they got some ******* who decided it was funny to make their life in the beginning hell, and they stopped playing. see the problem with that? he CAN fight people who have a semblance of a chance, but chooses not too, just to ruin some new guys save? thats sadistic at best. imagine how much bigger the community would be if lunar and people like him had held off till the church. we'd have a LOT more players, which means a LOT more PvP, and a LOT more fun. but instead, we have less because he decided he wanted to haze the new guy, by tying him up and attaching a car battery to his nipples. this isn't about what he can do. its about what the consequences are.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:17 pm

    Dealing with people who you don't like and won't convert to your train of thought is life.
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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:25 pm

    BIG TIME MASTER wrote:Dealing with people who you don't like and won't convert to your train of thought is life.

    I am dealing with it, by telling her I don't like her or people like her. If she doesn't care, that's fine; however, I should still be allowed to express my contempt. If I can't express it, then why should she be allowed to continue making threads about greifing? When you say or do something, you open yourself up to all kinds of criticism. That is something everyone has to accept, because it's also a part of life.


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    Re: The true essence of Dark Souls

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:34 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:
    BIG TIME MASTER wrote:Dealing with people who you don't like and won't convert to your train of thought is life.

    I am dealing with it, by telling her I don't like her or people like her. If she doesn't care, that's fine; however, I should still be allowed to express my contempt. If I can't express it, then why should she be allowed to continue making threads about greifing? When you say or do something, you open yourself up to all kinds of criticism. That is something everyone has to accept, because it's also a part of life.

    I don't know the history of this thread, but you should be more compassionate to your fellow forum posters.

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