Money-grubbing Sony

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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:02 am

    Serious_Much wrote:forum, your point about microsoft making you pay for online play is extremely valid, i completely forgot about that barrel of horse **** considering i find it inconceivable that a company would make people pay for being able to play online when their competitors don't (bazinga)

    About the stealing thing sloth.. i'm with forum here. Once you've bought that game, or dvd or tv whatever it's yours. Its the same with video games. You go give a load of your **** to a charity shop and they sell it on. Would you expect them to give money to the companies that stuff came from originally? No. Would you expect recycling plants to give money to the companies of stuff they're recycling and selling on? No.

    I don't see why selling things to other people or letting people borrow stuff should have different rules to everything else like music or dvds etc. Video games companies are just lucky that free versions of their games aren't as readily available as music and dvds. Consoles are lucky in that regard, someone has to buy it and physically pass it on, with music i could rip all my CDs and email them to everyone on my contacts list if i felt like it. According to your argument there, each one of my friends would be stealing hundreds of pounds just because i passed a few files over to them.

    Serious: You definitely can't make copies of anything you own and then share it. For profit or not.

    Forum: I'm going to have to do a lot of reading before I get back to you. As you say, I'm going to go straiten my facts.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:07 am

    Now that I'm no longer fuming, Sony does indeed have the legal right to use technology to stop used games on their system if they like. What *should* stop them is that their entire consumer base will give them the finger and buy a steam box.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:09 am

    Okay then, changing scenario to what i actually do. I lend my friends cds and they rip the cds onto their computer. Is that stealing? I'd say it's not.

    Anyway, i guess i went off point with that. The fact is selling someone a game isn't stealing from the company. The moment I buy the game, they wave their rights to receiving any money from that specific disc, so anything beyond that is the owner selling it on once again.

    I think this discussion is very complicated though. The internet has *** it up to the point of companies wanting to protect game files like this. It's just too easy to share things. even discs with protection can be broken and extracted. It's just the fact that the internet makes everything software and file based far too easy to steal.

    I just had an epiphany as to how nintendo using cds and cartridges not fit for any other device was utter genius to stop piracy. silly


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:13 am

    Owning a copy isn't technicaly illegal either, as long as you own the original. Thats why people can get away with so much downloading on the internet. Unless they can prove you don't own it, they can't do anything about it.


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by raecor14 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:14 am

    guys, while i understand your delema, this HAS to happen. its not just sony who misses out on the money, it the developers as well, it has the same effect as piracy essentially. most of us are educated on the way games get the funds the need. what if we only get generic FPS's and a bunch of scyrim copy's because the development team couldn't get the funds they needed on anything new E.G any souls game. in my eyes, you may as well pirate as buy from a used game retail, that's why i always buy new.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:20 am

    Again, they'll lose a lot more money when 80% of their consumers tell them to go to hell.

    Perhaps, if smaller developers spent less time trying to out do eachother with graphics and driving up production costs, they'd have more money. Guess how most car companies make money. 1 or 2 awesome, expensive things, but mostly mid range or cheap stuff for everybody else.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:21 am

    As long as you own the original, sharing music with friends is illegal. Only one of them can actually own the CD, unless they go out and buy their own copy. Nothing stops you from opening up your I-tunes on a friends computer and installing everything you've purchased. Though I would still call that stealing.

    I believe that's why PSN has decided to limit the amount of systems that you can install the things you bought from PSN on. Before you could have the same things on 4 systems, now you can only do it with 2.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:23 am

    As I said, You can own a copy as long as you own an original. sharing the copy is illegal, giving them the original isn't. (at which point your copy becomes illegal)


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:26 am

    I was referring to Serious sharing music with his friends.

    I remember a guy on a forum saying that he had the right to pirate games, that he may or may not buy, so he could test them. If he liked the game then he would buy it, if he didn't like it then he wouldn't. How the hell does that work? He already experienced the entire game. The way I see it, we don't pay for discs, we pay for experiences. If we don't like a movie at the theaters, we can't exactly demand our money back can we?

    That's why I think sharing games is wrong, because you're sharing the experience with someone who hasn't paid for it. Maybe the law doesn't agree with me on this, but I still think it's wrong.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by raecor14 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:36 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Again, they'll lose a lot more money when 80% of their consumers tell them to go to hell.

    Perhaps, if smaller developers spent less time trying to out do eachother with graphics and driving up production costs, they'd have more money. Guess how most car companies make money. 1 or 2 awesome, expensive things, but mostly mid range or cheap stuff for everybody else.

    yet again, the devs don't set the prices, they just make the game, not their falt, sony won't be told to go to hell because some people just like it better (me, hate the X-box controller) and this all comes from them MAKEING the tech, anything we have been told about the PS4 is either speculation or rumors. but back on topic, dev teams are almost always funded meaning that while they get a nice sum of money it would be no where near enough to then go on to another game. i would suggest to anyone who only buys pre owned to see how the system works, generally games are funded (by the publisher i think but don't quote me on that) now the publisher is entitles to a cut of the profit, a large one too. guess what the use it for? WHATEVER THEY LIKE YAY. so that means per NEW game sold the developer is earning a whole lot less then the $90-100 aud (yes, we have to pay that much) we pay, they may get 10 because of EB taking money, shipping costs, publishing costs and cut, and im sure there is more. i think that is more people realized the way all this works they may understand why sony is doing this.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:40 am

    You'd still buy it, doesn't mean everyone else still would.

    Netflix tried something like this a few years back - it failed.

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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by raecor14 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:46 am

    well i have never heard of that, sony on the other hand is a household name.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:48 am

    I dislike pretty much everything about Xbox and Microsoft in general, but I'd probably become a Microsoft customer if that happened. I'd love to go Nintendo instead, but they've become a little bit too geared towards casual gamers for my tastes. I owned a Wii for awhile, for Fire Emblem, among other things, and it just didn't do for me what my PS3 does. Although Wii Golf was an absolute blast. In fact, there were a lot of games that were an absolute blast, but it's just not the same kinda thing


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:59 am

    @Rankor They don't get to set the price, but they DO decide how much money to spend on creating it. Odinsphere is an excellent game. It was made by 8 people for less than $10,000 dollars if memory serves. Know why? Because rather than focusing on picture perfect graphics, the focused on creating a graphical style that worked for the purpose and spent the rest of their time on the more important stuff (everything else)

    For, say, heavy rain (the porshe) its very important to have cutting edge graphics, for cod or WoW (the ford f150) its not important at all, just get it passable and go.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:01 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:@Rankor They don't get to set the price, but they DO decide how much money to spend on creating it. Odinsphere is an excellent game. It was made by 8 people for less than $10,000 dollars if memory serves. Know why? Because rather than focusing on picture perfect graphics, the focused on creating a graphical style that worked for the purpose and spent the rest of their time on the more important stuff (everything else)

    For, say, heavy rain (the porshe) its very important to have cutting edge graphics, for cod or WoW (the ford f150) its not important at all, just get it passable and go.

    You could cite the new trend of amazing indie games too. Limbo or Journey. They're both awesome games, with very simple graphics and production


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by raecor14 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:12 am

    i completely see your point, but at this point in time visuals (and that includes graphics) are among the highest selling points. and while i love some older games (super Mario 64, pretty much any Zelda) it would be a lie if i where to say that the new polished games (the remade OOT, twilight princess, even some of the mario 3ds games) did not only blow me away but it also added to the experience ( twilight princess more then the others ahaha). pokemon would be a good example of what you where talking about, but i can imagine a much more engaging game with a graphics overhaul.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:29 am

    This is a portion Namco-Banai's EULA(End-user license agreement )


    "IMPORTANT - READ CAREFULLY: THE NAMCO BANDAI GAMES' VIDEO GAME YOU HAVE PURCHASED (WHICH INCLUDES COMPUTER GAME, MEDIA, AND RELATED DOCUMENTATION IN PRINTED OR ELECTRONIC FORM) IS LICENSED TO YOU ON THE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW, WHICH CONSTITUTES A LEGAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND NAMCO BANDAI GAMES AMERICA INC. ("NAMCO BANDAI"). BY PLAYING THE VIDEO GAME (EITHER ON YOUR HOME CONSOLE OR IF APPLICABLE ONLINE), AND/OR INSTALLING OR OTHERWISE USING THE GAME PROGRAM, YOU AGREE TO BE LEGALLY BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITH NAMCO BANDAI. NAMCO BANDAI RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE, MODIFY, ADD, OR REMOVE PORTIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT IN ITS SOLE DISCRETION WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU.

    The interactive Game entertainment product you purchased, including without limitation any multi-player, online, or downloadable portions thereof (the "Game") is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. The Game is licensed, and not sold, and this Agreement confers no title or ownership to the Game program or any copy thereof. In addition to the terms and conditions hereof, when using particular portions of the Game, including without limitation any multi-player, online, or downloadable content, you may be subject to additional guidelines of third party service providers.

    1. PRECONDITIONS OF THE LICENSE. The grant of license as set forth in Section 2 below is specifically conditioned upon the following:

    You have accepted all of the terms in these Terms of Use, and any additional terms as may be applicable to the Game you are playing, which is evidenced by your use of the Game;
    You will comply with all of the terms in these Terms of Use until such time as you have completed and permanently terminated your use of the Game by deleting all aspects of the Game from your machine (e.g., account deletion, deletion of Game-related files, destruction of the physical media on which the copy of the Game in your possession exists, etc.);
    You will use the Game only on a single home video game entertainment system, running validly licensed copies of operating systems on which the Game was designed to operate (the "Hardware"); and
    You will refrain from using any hacks, cracks, bots, or third party Game which may modify, temporarily or permanently, the code or the user experience of the Game, whether on your local machine or on servers which enable use of any features of the Game.
    2. LIMITED USE LICENSE. NAMCO BANDAI grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, revocable, limited right and license use one copy of the Game solely for your personal use the Hardware. Commercial use of the Game is prohibited. To play the Game and/or access any online content related to the Game, you must have legally purchased the Game Game, and all applicable or required Hardware and/or third party Game to operate the Game and/or access any online, multi-player or download portion of the Game (which we do not provide). You are responsible for paying all fees and taxes for any Hardware and other costs you may incur to access the Game, including internet service or other third party charges required to access any multi-player, online or downloadable portions of the Game (if applicable). Neither this Agreement nor use of the Game entitles you to any future releases of the Game, nor to any expansions, sequels, or similar or ancillary products.

    3. OWNERSHIP. All intellectual property rights in and to the Game (including but not limited to video, audio and other content incorporated therein or later downloaded) and title to any and all copies thereof are owned by NAMCO BANDAI or its licensors, and you receive no right or interest therein other than the limited license in paragraph 2 hereof.

    You may not do any of the following:

    Copy the Game except a single backup copy;
    Sell, rent, lease, license, distribute or otherwise transfer or make the Game available to any other person, in whole or in part, or use the Game or any part thereof in any commercial context, including but not limited to use on a commercial website, or in a service bureau, "cyber cafe", computer gaming center or any other commercial location in which multiple users who have not each separately purchased the Game may access the Game program. NAMCO BANDAI may offer a separate Site License Agreement to permit you to make the Game available for commercial use; see the contact information below;
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    Export or re-export the Game or any copy or adaptation in violation of any applicable U.S. export restrictions or other laws or regulations."


    Is it enforceable in a court of law? I have no idea.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:37 am

    Again, its not having bad graphics, its not making them better than is necessary for the full experience. For some games this is cutting edge stuff, for kingdom of amalure its being bright and distinctive.

    As another easy example, gran turismo needs the best graphics feasible, street fighter is more than fine as is.

    The issue, is that companies ALL have it in their head that they have to be porche to succeed, which drives up production costs much higher than necessary.

    Valve and bethesda are good examples of game companies done right. The graphics are good enough for the experience and fairly distinctive, without such a big focus that the game cost $20,000,000 to make. Borderlands is another good example of this principle in practice.


    @ sloth No its not. Its TOS. They can ban you, but thats it. Its also not enforceable, at all. Even a little. The RFID would make it so, but again people would just get the steam box instead.

    Its possible the whole thing is just to browbeat gamestop into giving sony a cut


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:46 am

    Even if it isn't enforceable by law, doesn't it mean that the Game Developers(or publishers in the case) do consider things such as re-selling or sharing theft? When you re-sell, they're only getting your money, instead of yours and another persons. So in a way, it does hurt the game industry.


    Though I agree that it probably is just something to brobeat Gamestop. I couldn't find this thing in any game manual anyway, had to look on the internetz for it.


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:48 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:46 am

    @Sloth: It seems to me that pretty much all of that is relevant to copying the game data or attempting to distribute it. The physical disk becomes your property to do with what you will, as long as you aren't copying or redistributing copied data. It's all referring to the software. I'm pretty sure it's not relevant to selling your game disk, when afterwards you no longer own any form of the software. It does say that you aren't meant to redistribute it for commercial use, but it doesn't say that you aren't allowed to redistribute it as a private seller. I can hear you saying already, that that would mean that people who open stores and resell used games and breaking that agreement, but I'm sure those stores probably have to attain some form of permit in order to operate legally anyway.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:51 am

    Plastic: "You will comply with all of the terms in these Terms of Use until such time as you have completed and permanently terminated your use of the Game by deleting all aspects of the Game from your machine (e.g., account deletion, deletion of Game-related files, destruction of the physical media on which the copy of the Game in your possession exists, etc.)"


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    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:54 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:52 am

    Yes, exactly. Meaning that once you no longer own the game, for example if you sell it, and all the software is gone from your possession. It's telling you that as long as you have the software in your possession that you have to follow certain guidelines or be in danger of copyright infringement. That doesn't include getting rid of them game, because once you get rid of the game you're no longer bound to the agreement.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:53 am

    To clarify, Terms Of service are legaly binding. This means you agree to whatever rules/concequences the company can legaly specify the will impose, but it is not the law in itself and no law is being broken by breaking the TOS. They just refuse to serve you (hense the term)

    Also, terms of service agreements are only valid if presented. If you're not made to agree before playing the game, they're not valid. Otherwise I could demand you give me your house to use my tv, after you'd already started.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:54 am

    ^ exactly. Copyright infringement is breaking the law, but anything else they're stating is just an agreement they hope you follow. Hence the way they use the term "agreement," and not "law"

    You don't see people getting arrested for hacking DkS. They ask you not to, but it's not a law, as long as you aren't reproducing the software.


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    Re: Money-grubbing Sony

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:56 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:To clarify, Terms Of service are legaly binding. This means you agree to whatever rules/concequences the company can legaly specify the will impose, but it is not the law in itself and no law is being broken by breaking the TOS. They just refuse to serve you (hense the term)

    Also, terms of service agreements are only valid if presented. If you're not made to agree before playing the game, they're not valid. Otherwise I could demand you give me your house to use my tv, after you'd already started.

    I kind of laughed when I read the part about being able to change the TOS without notifying you. Awe well, I guess I was wrong earlier.


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total


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