Research on poise and effects of weapons

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    Soris Ice Goldwing
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    Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:14 am

    Hello! I said I was going to run research on PlasticandRage's Most Effiective Poise Breaking Weapons thread and here's what I got so far with poise and the weapons so far. Please note that I'm not testing poise regenerating, but rather how many hits and how much stamina is left for you after the opponent drains his/her stamina. This is still in development and if needed will retest and look into more ways to improve this.

    Before I begin thank you The Letter X for offering your time to test the weapons and help getting this started, and Lord of Ash; for giving the humanity needed to keep this going later. Could not have done this without you!

    Now then I used my sl 120 with 70 poise and 43 endurance and my fully upgraded grass crest shield. as the test subject for testing so far. I had X use fully upgraded popular weapons on me and recorded each hit, the amount of stamina left. Only R1 attacks spammed by both 1-hand and 2-hand were used since the R2 attacks vary and allow stamina recharge. If the weapons broke my guard only the hit needed to break it was recorded since any more hit stunlocked me.

    Also I you got a better name for this topic let me know. I'm still not good at naming these things.:|


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:35 am

    First I wanted to see how many unguarded hits would stagger my 70 poise. I had X use spears, and this was the result:

    Sliver Knight spear: 1 hand 4 hits. 2-hand 3 hits.

    Demon spear: 1-hand 4 hit. 2-hand 3 hits

    Moon light butterfly spear: 1-hand 4 hits. 2-hand 3 hits. Lord of Ash was needed with this one.

    Dragonslayer spear: 1-hand 4 hits. 2 hand 3

    Pike: 1-hand 4hits. 2-hand 3 hits

    Partizan: 1-hand 4 hits. 2-hand 3 hits

    Lighting winged spear: 1-hand 4 hits. 2-hand 3 hits

    I did not think at first the number of hits needed to stagger 70 poise would be a constant for each weapon. Afterwards I wanted to see the effects each spear had against my shield.

    Here were the results:

    Spoiler:


    Sliver Knight Spear: 1-hand 8 no break cut stamina in half. 2-hand 6 did not break guard.

    Demon spear: 1-hand 8 hits, left 3 bars of stamina. 2-hand 6 hit no guard break.

    Dragonslayer spear: 1-hand 8 hits left 1 block of stamina. 2-hand 4 hits broke guard.

    Pike: 1-hand 7 hits left3 left bars of stamina. 2-hand 5 left 2 bars no guard break.

    Partizan: 1-hand 8 hits cut 3 bars of stamina. 2-hand 6 hits left 2 ½ bars of stamina.

    Lighting Winged spear: 1-hand 8 hits left 3 ¼ bars of stamina. 2-hand 6 hits left 1 bar of stamina.



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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:51 am

    Poise damage on R1's has been common for a while. If you want to do something useful, test it on R2's, running attacks, rolling attacks, and jumping attacks. Also on things like bows/greatbows. And sorceries. And how Force/WoG is affected by poise. That's all stuff that hasn't had much research done on it AFAIK.

    Anyways, poise R1's is like this:

    Light weapons deal 5 poise damage.
    Medium weapons deal 20.
    Heavy weapons deal 35.
    Ultra weapons deal 50.

    If you two-hand a weapon, its poise damage is multiplied by 1.5.


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:08 am

    Well like I said I'm still working on this and there's still much more to go into. I started from the usal R1 spammer and see what I can get. I do intend to see the other weapon types and hope to try some duels for better results. If I had more time tonight I could try more but its getting late when I did this. I'll admit I did not think of bows aside from the greatbows could do much in PvP. However I'm testing melee weapons. Magic I did think of but the scaling of int with the specific spell may be to hard to test. Though if I get someone who knows a lot about magic I may test it. I will test the Moonlight Greatsword R2 attacks, I want to see if the distance has any effect when used and if the damage is added if the opponent gets hit by the blade.


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:09 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Poise damage on R1's has been common for a while. If you want to do something useful, test it on R2's, running attacks, rolling attacks, and jumping attacks. Also on things like bows/greatbows. And sorceries. And how Force/WoG is affected by poise. That's all stuff that hasn't had much research done on it AFAIK.

    Anyways, poise R1's is like this:

    Light weapons deal 5 poise damage.
    Medium weapons deal 20.
    Heavy weapons deal 35.
    Ultra weapons deal 50.

    If you two-hand a weapon, its poise damage is multiplied by 1.5.

    That's not accurate. I tested the whips myself, and all 3 cut off 20 poise per strike. There's also no set classification based on those classes. Where'd you get that from? The closest way weapons seem to be able to be classified by, as far as poise damage goes, is by type. Meaning Daggers, Straight Swords, Curved Swords, etc. But there also seem to be weapons that operate outside their classifications, like the Falchion. This kind of testing is absolutely useful.


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:14 am

    How are you testing exactly Soris? The way I've done it in the past is to start with 0 poise for a control, and strike to stun with one hit, stamina doesn't really come into it in that regard, then add 10 poise, and strike over and over until a stun takes place, usually it happens right away at 10, then add another 10 poise, and do it again, when you get to a place where a stun doesn't immediately happen then you have the number of poise that weapon is taking per strike. Know what I mean? Like for the whips, I was stunning pwn in one hit at 0, 10, and 20 poise, but then from 30-40 it was taking 2 hits, 50-60 it was taking 3 hits. See where I'm going?


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:38 am

    Here is what I got from the straight sword catagory so far:

    Spoiler:


    Balder side sword: 1-hand 10 hits left 1 bar. 2hand 6 hits broke guard.

    Sunlight straight sword: 1-hand 10 hits broke guard. 2-hand 5 hits broke guard.

    Dark sword: 1-hand 10 hits broke guard. 2-hand 5 hits broke guard.

    Barbed straightsword: 1-hand 9 hits broke guard. 2-hand 5 hit broke guard.

    Sliver Knight Sword: 1hand 10 hits broke guard. 2-hand 5 hits broke guard.

    Broadsword: 1-hand 9 hits broke guard. 2-hand 4 hits broke guard.

    Long sword un-upgraded: 1-hand 10 hits left 4 bars of stamina. 2-hand 8 left 3 bars of stamina.


    I was suprised by this one however when these swords lack reach, these swords low stamina draining proves a bigger threat than spears. More hits and stronger the weapon drains your stamina and from testing these where the hits needed to break my guard but leaves enough stamina for your opponent to stunlock you for about 2 hits give or take.

    Plastic I consider this a rough draft since I was time constrained. I took a wide start on this and intend to narrow it down. I started trying to see how many hits would stagger me and after the intial spear un-guard test I feared that the results were to constant and that something must have went wrong. So I wanted to repeat it but with a shield for a practical look using popular weapons. I did wanted to try this on 60, 40, 20, poises but I did not since I did not want X to get bored and our timezones would have kept us up till morning., and for some reason I couldn't remove my rings. I do want to atempt an in-depth look of these weapons aside from poise in PvP stituations but to do such a thing on the many weapons in this game is insane, and testing them would bore people involved with that. I love doing research but I need limits for this.


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:40 am

    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:Here is what I got from the straight sword catagory so far:

    Spoiler:


    Balder side sword: 1-hand 10 hits left 1 bar. 2hand 6 hits broke guard.

    Sunlight straight sword: 1-hand 10 hits broke guard. 2-hand 5 hits broke guard.

    Dark sword: 1-hand 10 hits broke guard. 2-hand 5 hits broke guard.

    Barbed straightsword: 1-hand 9 hits broke guard. 2-hand 5 hit broke guard.

    Sliver Knight Sword: 1hand 10 hits broke guard. 2-hand 5 hits broke guard.

    Broadsword: 1-hand 9 hits broke guard. 2-hand 4 hits broke guard.

    Long sword un-upgraded: 1-hand 10 hits left 4 bars of stamina. 2-hand 8 left 3 bars of stamina.


    I was suprised by this one however when these swords lack reach, these swords low stamina draining proves a bigger threat than spears. More hits and stronger the weapon drains your stamina and from testing these where the hits needed to break my guard but leaves enough stamina for your opponent to stunlock you for about 2 hits give or take.

    Plastic I consider this a rough draft since I was time constrained. I took a wide start on this and intend to narrow it down. I started trying to see how many hits would stagger me and after the intial spear un-guard test I feared that the results were to constant and that something must have went wrong. So I wanted to repeat it but with a shield for a practical look using popular weapons. I did wanted to try this on 60, 40, 20, poises but I did not since I did not want X to get bored and our timezones would have kept us up till morning., and for some reason I couldn't remove my rings. I do want to atempt an in-depth look of these weapons aside from poise in PvP stituations but to do such a thing on the many weapons in this game is insane, and testing them would bore people involved with that. I love doing research but I need limits for this.

    Well if you're using a shield and calculating based on stamina damage, then you're actually not testing poise, you're testing shield stability breaking. With pure poise, you should be getting relatively uniform results within weapon types. In my own experience that's all I've seen. That the majority of weapons within a given type will all break the same amount. Part of what I'm wondering though is if any weapons within classes transcend those class's poise breaking potential.


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:51 am

    Well the next time I get on I'm going to try what I did in the begining again. I think I would either have to attack while being attacked for the effect I want or repeat the first part with swords. I still think something went wrong unless the spears are supposed to break poise with the same number of hits but I need to look at the weapon itself and not the damage it does and what I have. Standing still seems to illogical so perhaps next is to test it while moving and attacking. The closer I get to a real PvP match the better. I do need to remember my hp however, I may have to die with the greatswords.


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:44 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:
    Saturday-Saint wrote:Poise damage on R1's has been common for a while. If you want to do something useful, test it on R2's, running attacks, rolling attacks, and jumping attacks. Also on things like bows/greatbows. And sorceries. And how Force/WoG is affected by poise. That's all stuff that hasn't had much research done on it AFAIK.

    Anyways, poise R1's is like this:

    Light weapons deal 5 poise damage.
    Medium weapons deal 20.
    Heavy weapons deal 35.
    Ultra weapons deal 50.

    If you two-hand a weapon, its poise damage is multiplied by 1.5.

    That's not accurate. I tested the whips myself, and all 3 cut off 20 poise per strike. There's also no set classification based on those classes. Where'd you get that from? The closest way weapons seem to be able to be classified by, as far as poise damage goes, is by type. Meaning Daggers, Straight Swords, Curved Swords, etc. But there also seem to be weapons that operate outside their classifications, like the Falchion. This kind of testing is absolutely useful.

    You said I am wrong and followed it up with some reasoning, and examples to support that reasoning. You have constructed a fine argument, and I applaud you for it. If I may present a rebuttal:

    PlasticandRage wrote:That's not accurate.
    You're right. I forgot to mention that Black Knight Great Axe is a special child and deals 40 poise damage.

    PlasticandRage wrote:I tested the whips myself, and all 3 cut off 20
    poise per strike.
    Your data coincides with my own. The same data which you are using this as evidence to disprove.

    PlasticandRage wrote:There's also no set classification based on those
    classes. Where'd you get that from?
    I was having trouble parsing this, so I chose to read it as, "I do not understand how this classification works. Can you clarify it for me?" If that is not what you meant, please restate it more coherently. If not, here's the clarification:

    With the exception of the Black Knight Great Axe, there are four classes of weapons with regards to poise damage: Light weapons, which deal 5 poise damage—an example of its members would be Estoc; Medium weapons, which deal 20 poise damage—an example of its members would be Silver Knight Spear; Heavy weapons, which deal 35 poise damage—an example of its members would be Murakumo; and Ultra weapons, which deal 50 poise damage—an example of its members would be Large Club.

    [quote="PlasticandRage"]The closest way weapons seem to be
    able to be classified by, as far as poise damage goes, is by type.
    Meaning Daggers, Straight Swords, Curved Swords, etc.[quote="PlasticandRage"]
    With the exception of the Black Knight Greataxe, and arguably fists, I do not know of any weapons which deal more or less poise damage on their R1 attacks than any other weapon in their class. So yes, I think it is fair to classify entire weapon classes under a single classification of poise damage, instead of classifying individual weapons. E.G., it would be okay to say, "Ultra Greatswords are Ultra weapons," rather than, "Great Sword, Zweihander, Demon Great Macheter, and Dragon Great Sword are Ultra Weapons."

    PlasticandRage wrote:But there also
    seem to be weapons that operate outside their
    classifications, like the
    Falchion.
    I flatly refuse to believe that Falchion does not deal 20 poise damage on its R1. This is something that I will not be convinced of otherwise unless I either hear it from somebody whose game knowledge I trust, or am provided video evidence of it being tested in a controlled environment.

    PlasticandRage wrote:This kind of testing is absolutely useful.
    It is, but it's also been done already. You don't see people running around trying to figure out how scaling works. I mean, it's useful knowledge to have, but nobody bothers collecting data on it because we already know how it works.

    That's why I said if he wants to do something useful, make a comprehensive list of R2/Running/Rolling attack poise damage. That, AFAIK, has not been done, and would be really nice to know.


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by The Letter X on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:25 am

    We did do more research on guard-breaking potential than anything else, and I am very surprised with the results. Weapons with a higher weight value broke guards much faster, and popular weapons like the BSS were actually the worst for breaking guards. It was also interesting to see how much of a gap there was for a fully upgraded weapon and a weapon that wasn't upgraded at all.

    We will test poise differently next time, hopefully more efficiently. I already figured that weapons of the same type did the same amount of poise damage, but each weapon had its own individual stamina damage on a shield. I'd really like to find at least one weapon that broke more or less poise than the rest of the weapons in its weapon type.


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by Jansports on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:34 pm

    The Handaxe does less poise damage than the other Small axes (battle axe Garg tail ect.) It also swings faster and costs less stamina to swing around. I'm not certain by how much but 2hing a battle axe can stagger capra demons in 2 hits, it takes more than that with the hand axe.
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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by Emergence on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:46 pm

    The Poise breaks for the different weapon categories have been worked out, but it doesn't hurt to retest post patch.

    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Poise

    The weapon categories are all listed there on that page for anyone interested.


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by The Letter X on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:00 pm

    Thanks, Emergence. We're probably going to be testing the Great Hammer rolling attacks and whatnot to find the highest poise breakpoints. I believe the original question was which attack broke the most poise. Besides maybe a Great Bow


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    Re: Research on poise and effects of weapons

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:43 pm

    The Letter X wrote:Thanks, Emergence. We're probably going to be testing the Great Hammer rolling attacks and whatnot to find the highest poise breakpoints. I believe the original question was which attack broke the most poise. Besides maybe a Great Bow

    That's exactly what I was about to say. I haven't done a lot of testing myself, so I can only cite the things I'm aware of, and the great clubs rolling attacks are one of those things. They at least seem to break poise a lot more readily than other attacks done by the great clubs. The R2 moves of the GLGS also seem to defy the standards set by other weapons in that class.

    @Saint: I was just looking through that link Emergence posted. It's way different then it was the last time I saw it. I wasn't aware of any of this research. We also need to take into consideration that some weapon's poise breaking ability seem to have been changed after the last patch. My original question was regarding the GA classes. I've been really feeling the difference in that class since the suspected nerf, with my DGA toon. What I meant when I questioned your classification is that the weapons your classing together don't seem to have any relation outside what you're citing. Again I wasn't yet aware of the newest research, so from my perspective classing weapons like the Silver Knight Spear with the Whips as "Medium Weapons" didn't seem to make much sense. Accounting for both weight and AR that classification seemed silly.

    Taking all information together, specifically how much poise specific weapons can break with all their different moves, it'd be nice to know which weapons break the most poise in comparison to everything else. I've been putting together a build recently whose biggest strength is ability to poise break, and it'd be nice to be able to select a weapon to use for it that I know will be the most effective at stunlocking with all it's moves.

    I've also seen weight being cited a lot recently as factoring into how easily toons can be stunlocked, operating outside of poise stats. It'd be interesting to see that tackled with some more clarification also.


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