What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by berkut on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:33 pm

    SilenceOfKnights wrote:
    SilenceOfKnights wrote:
    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:
    SilenceOfKnights wrote:
    Carphil wrote:
    SilenceOfKnights wrote:
    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:
    berkut wrote:I haven't even finished the game once silly

    Well I was talkin' to Jolly Cooperation over there, but damn, you've been 'round these parts for a while...savor it while it lasts!
    i say that gwyn control time and he restart every time to keep the age of fire.

    Wrong!

    Is GWYNDOLIN that does that! But if you link the fire!

    Gwyn is hollow just like the crestfallen warrior!
    so why when u kill her in a playthrough time still restart.

    Cause it's magic!
    there has to be something that restart it.the questions is how and why.
    why is most likely to conserve something but what.
    the age of fire. so the gods dont die

    Note that Gwyndolyin is the guy.

    @ JohnnyHarpoon Especially considering that I creeped the forums since October but only joined last month silly


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by Emergence on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:45 pm

    I think the whole flow of time is just a literary device to incorporate game mechanics like multiple cycles and phantoms, in a similar vein to DC's use of the 52 parallel universes.


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by Emergence on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:50 pm

    What I am most interested in is the implication the game makes that at a past point, humanity and humans were inseparable. What event caused that schism that has now resulted in a mad scramble for humanity and acts of desperation involving linking a fire that no one quite understands, not even Gwyn himself.


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by SilenceOfKnights on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:51 pm

    Emergence wrote:I think the whole flow of time is just a literary device to incorporate game mechanics like multiple cycles and phantoms, in a similar vein to DC's use of the 52 parallel universes.
    i would say the same if they didint say that the pendant would reveal itself after multiple playthrough


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by User on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:53 pm

    Sigh. After looking at my Ipod and seeing this play threw, I have to intervein. I actually stopped playing dark souls to get up and write this. Everything I write is do to the response and conversation of this thread. In this, I have to say, I must talk.

    For one, HUMANITY is not the primary source of keeping hollow. Not the body form of hollow, but the mind form itself. The form in which the fallen undead, as we have seen, turn into mindles drones of war. The Merchants, the beings that lack humanity, are hollow in form, but not hollow in mind. Yes, the male merchant is insane in a sense, and the female merchant is there, but it is not the insanity of enhollowment, but just insanity of, well, repression, lonesome, and the sight of chaos and disparity all around them. Being as one is a scavenger merchant, and the other is a herbalist, it can be said that these hollows, although are of form, are not of mind.

    The hollow, the white maiden, goes hollow in the archives. Even though she has a load of humanity that she has, since she is a 'special' breed of human that strives of it. She goes hollow after being captured by seath, for whatever experiments he has for her (likely the flawed experiments near the area). In this factor, it can not be said that Humanity keeps them from going hollow, as she clearly has a ton to hold. Some characters who are in human form, including the crestfallen and logan, have no humanity, and they have strived at being sane... until they went and did certain events, of course.

    The Bonfires, as seen in Ash Lake, had derived before the second lighting. It can be said so, as the two bonfires in Ash Lake are not of the bones of humans, but the wood of the arch trees. As humans have fought against the Dragons, it can be said that they used the power of the flame to strive to survive, as the Witch of Izalith did. It is possible that the undead had existed BEFORE the second lighting, and it probably is so. The hollowment began when the second lighting was created. Now it is hard to say why that is, however it is not the lack of humanity, or at least not the primary reason why.

    It is due to the 'Bizarro' flame, the Chaos Flame. With the factor of Chaos, the second cloned flame is fused with the First Flame, the Flame of Disparity (mostly, conflict and war). As well as the information of the four statues holding children, especially the one by the gate pit to the vessel's soon-to-be resting place, it could be said that the first being that was the guardian of the First Flame when it was first lit strived of humanity. As the Lord Soul of Gwyn has none, it could be another reason why. Why he has no humanity, is possibly due to the factors in which of the soldiers that are bound to the first flame, the Black Knights. As for the Chaos Flame, as it spawns the humanoid abominations of chaos, it can be said that humanity derived towards them, in which shaped and formed into such things. If you do not believe that the Chaos Flame derives of humanity, look at the Chaos Weapons and the Pyromancies of the Bizarro Flame.

    Whatever the factor is, enhollowment to the mind seems to also be bound to the ideals of the Dark Sign, as seen in the eyes of the hollowed form. Perhaps this Darksign always existed, and was used as the source in which Undead Could warp to their 'home' after 'deathification', as Hollows of the flame can not die when bound to it. As it can be said that perhaps the Dark Sign is the work of the God of War, or possibly the Furtive Pygmy. We do not know why the Furtive Pygmy had vanished, nor do we see it as being ever linked to anything, other than Kaathe (which you should NOT trust so openly, I might add you). As the God of War had also vanished due to certain situations in which he was banished from his home, losing his godly deity, it can be said that he might have done something during the time when the Age of Dark began the first time, or did something to bring it about.

    As for the time thing, it can be seen that Every time you use it, the bonfire, time always shifts, and everything is set back into place. The only exception to this rule, is the NPCs and the Black Knights, who do not change their actions nor what they are doing after the use of the bonfire (try it out, bring a Black Knight close to your bonfire, and try to warp it back. it won't work). It could be true that NG+ is the doing of the player going back threw time, as well as space (otherwise we would see ourselves). However, the Dark Lord ending would otherwise prove wrong, as the Dark Lord ending distinguishes the Flame (in which case, all bonfires, pyromancies, and other flamly dieties tied to it), in which would remove such times. It is a good idea, I give you that, however flawed in some cases. Just pointing it out.

    The reason for the follow form is death. As you can see, it is the hollow form in which is the factor of the Flame, as it incarnates you as if reborn in a new body, however flail you are. It can be said that the reason for such things is due to what is on your heart, the scar of the firekeeper (the woman holding the toddler seems similar premise as such). With the factor in which the bonfires is distinguish, YOU, as the dark lord, would probably die without it. The reason for the hollowment to the mind, well, has already been discussed before. Mostly doing with failure.

    I am not trying to destroy anyone, nor to show hatred. I am just pointing out some things. You can debate it against it, if you would like, but I shall defend it as well, unless I see proof as such in which weakens what I know, if not destroys it.
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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by SilenceOfKnights on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:02 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:Sigh. After looking at my Ipod and seeing this play threw, I have to intervein. I actually stopped playing dark souls to get up and write this. Everything I write is do to the response and conversation of this thread. In this, I have to say, I must talk.

    For one, HUMANITY is not the primary source of keeping hollow. Not the body form of hollow, but the mind form itself. The form in which the fallen undead, as we have seen, turn into mindles drones of war. The Merchants, the beings that lack humanity, are hollow in form, but not hollow in mind. Yes, the male merchant is insane in a sense, and the female merchant is there, but it is not the insanity of enhollowment, but just insanity of, well, repression, lonesome, and the sight of chaos and disparity all around them. Being as one is a scavenger merchant, and the other is a herbalist, it can be said that these hollows, although are of form, are not of mind.

    The hollow, the white maiden, goes hollow in the archives. Even though she has a load of humanity that she has, since she is a 'special' breed of human that strives of it. She goes hollow after being captured by seath, for whatever experiments he has for her (likely the flawed experiments near the area). In this factor, it can not be said that Humanity keeps them from going hollow, as she clearly has a ton to hold. Some characters who are in human form, including the crestfallen and logan, have no humanity, and they have strived at being sane... until they went and did certain events, of course.

    The Bonfires, as seen in Ash Lake, had derived before the second lighting. It can be said so, as the two bonfires in Ash Lake are not of the bones of humans, but the wood of the arch trees. As humans have fought against the Dragons, it can be said that they used the power of the flame to strive to survive, as the Witch of Izalith did. It is possible that the undead had existed BEFORE the second lighting, and it probably is so. The hollowment began when the second lighting was created. Now it is hard to say why that is, however it is not the lack of humanity, or at least not the primary reason why.

    It is due to the 'Bizarro' flame, the Chaos Flame. With the factor of Chaos, the second cloned flame is fused with the First Flame, the Flame of Disparity (mostly, conflict and war). As well as the information of the four statues holding children, especially the one by the gate pit to the vessel's soon-to-be resting place, it could be said that the first being that was the guardian of the First Flame when it was first lit strived of humanity. As the Lord Soul of Gwyn has none, it could be another reason why. Why he has no humanity, is possibly due to the factors in which of the soldiers that are bound to the first flame, the Black Knights. As for the Chaos Flame, as it spawns the humanoid abominations of chaos, it can be said that humanity derived towards them, in which shaped and formed into such things. If you do not believe that the Chaos Flame derives of humanity, look at the Chaos Weapons and the Pyromancies of the Bizarro Flame.

    Whatever the factor is, enhollowment to the mind seems to also be bound to the ideals of the Dark Sign, as seen in the eyes of the hollowed form. Perhaps this Darksign always existed, and was used as the source in which Undead Could warp to their 'home' after 'deathification', as Hollows of the flame can not die when bound to it. As it can be said that perhaps the Dark Sign is the work of the God of War, or possibly the Furtive Pygmy. We do not know why the Furtive Pygmy had vanished, nor do we see it as being ever linked to anything, other than Kaathe (which you should NOT trust so openly, I might add you). As the God of War had also vanished due to certain situations in which he was banished from his home, losing his godly deity, it can be said that he might have done something during the time when the Age of Dark began the first time, or did something to bring it about.

    As for the time thing, it can be seen that Every time you use it, the bonfire, time always shifts, and everything is set back into place. The only exception to this rule, is the NPCs and the Black Knights, who do not change their actions nor what they are doing after the use of the bonfire (try it out, bring a Black Knight close to your bonfire, and try to warp it back. it won't work). It could be true that NG+ is the doing of the player going back threw time, as well as space (otherwise we would see ourselves). However, the Dark Lord ending would otherwise prove wrong, as the Dark Lord ending distinguishes the Flame (in which case, all bonfires, pyromancies, and other flamly dieties tied to it), in which would remove such times. It is a good idea, I give you that, however flawed in some cases. Just pointing it out.

    The reason for the follow form is death. As you can see, it is the hollow form in which is the factor of the Flame, as it incarnates you as if reborn in a new body, however flail you are. It can be said that the reason for such things is due to what is on your heart, the scar of the firekeeper (the woman holding the toddler seems similar premise as such). With the factor in which the bonfires is distinguish, YOU, as the dark lord, would probably die without it. The reason for the hollowment to the mind, well, has already been discussed before. Mostly doing with failure.

    I am not trying to destroy anyone, nor to show hatred. I am just pointing out some things. You can debate it against it, if you would like, but I shall defend it as well, unless I see proof as such in which weakens what I know, if not destroys it.
    it does make sense but i dont think personally that the resting a the bonfire reset time cause it would make no sense as of why Black knights and npc dont respawn.i think is just cause black knights and npc for some reason are not bounded to the bonfire.curious why though.


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by SilenceOfKnights on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:03 pm

    SilenceOfKnights wrote:
    Acidic_Cook wrote:Sigh. After looking at my Ipod and seeing this play threw, I have to intervein. I actually stopped playing dark souls to get up and write this. Everything I write is do to the response and conversation of this thread. In this, I have to say, I must talk.

    For one, HUMANITY is not the primary source of keeping hollow. Not the body form of hollow, but the mind form itself. The form in which the fallen undead, as we have seen, turn into mindles drones of war. The Merchants, the beings that lack humanity, are hollow in form, but not hollow in mind. Yes, the male merchant is insane in a sense, and the female merchant is there, but it is not the insanity of enhollowment, but just insanity of, well, repression, lonesome, and the sight of chaos and disparity all around them. Being as one is a scavenger merchant, and the other is a herbalist, it can be said that these hollows, although are of form, are not of mind.

    The hollow, the white maiden, goes hollow in the archives. Even though she has a load of humanity that she has, since she is a 'special' breed of human that strives of it. She goes hollow after being captured by seath, for whatever experiments he has for her (likely the flawed experiments near the area). In this factor, it can not be said that Humanity keeps them from going hollow, as she clearly has a ton to hold. Some characters who are in human form, including the crestfallen and logan, have no humanity, and they have strived at being sane... until they went and did certain events, of course.

    The Bonfires, as seen in Ash Lake, had derived before the second lighting. It can be said so, as the two bonfires in Ash Lake are not of the bones of humans, but the wood of the arch trees. As humans have fought against the Dragons, it can be said that they used the power of the flame to strive to survive, as the Witch of Izalith did. It is possible that the undead had existed BEFORE the second lighting, and it probably is so. The hollowment began when the second lighting was created. Now it is hard to say why that is, however it is not the lack of humanity, or at least not the primary reason why.

    It is due to the 'Bizarro' flame, the Chaos Flame. With the factor of Chaos, the second cloned flame is fused with the First Flame, the Flame of Disparity (mostly, conflict and war). As well as the information of the four statues holding children, especially the one by the gate pit to the vessel's soon-to-be resting place, it could be said that the first being that was the guardian of the First Flame when it was first lit strived of humanity. As the Lord Soul of Gwyn has none, it could be another reason why. Why he has no humanity, is possibly due to the factors in which of the soldiers that are bound to the first flame, the Black Knights. As for the Chaos Flame, as it spawns the humanoid abominations of chaos, it can be said that humanity derived towards them, in which shaped and formed into such things. If you do not believe that the Chaos Flame derives of humanity, look at the Chaos Weapons and the Pyromancies of the Bizarro Flame.

    Whatever the factor is, enhollowment to the mind seems to also be bound to the ideals of the Dark Sign, as seen in the eyes of the hollowed form. Perhaps this Darksign always existed, and was used as the source in which Undead Could warp to their 'home' after 'deathification', as Hollows of the flame can not die when bound to it. As it can be said that perhaps the Dark Sign is the work of the God of War, or possibly the Furtive Pygmy. We do not know why the Furtive Pygmy had vanished, nor do we see it as being ever linked to anything, other than Kaathe (which you should NOT trust so openly, I might add you). As the God of War had also vanished due to certain situations in which he was banished from his home, losing his godly deity, it can be said that he might have done something during the time when the Age of Dark began the first time, or did something to bring it about.

    As for the time thing, it can be seen that Every time you use it, the bonfire, time always shifts, and everything is set back into place. The only exception to this rule, is the NPCs and the Black Knights, who do not change their actions nor what they are doing after the use of the bonfire (try it out, bring a Black Knight close to your bonfire, and try to warp it back. it won't work). It could be true that NG+ is the doing of the player going back threw time, as well as space (otherwise we would see ourselves). However, the Dark Lord ending would otherwise prove wrong, as the Dark Lord ending distinguishes the Flame (in which case, all bonfires, pyromancies, and other flamly dieties tied to it), in which would remove such times. It is a good idea, I give you that, however flawed in some cases. Just pointing it out.

    The reason for the follow form is death. As you can see, it is the hollow form in which is the factor of the Flame, as it incarnates you as if reborn in a new body, however flail you are. It can be said that the reason for such things is due to what is on your heart, the scar of the firekeeper (the woman holding the toddler seems similar premise as such). With the factor in which the bonfires is distinguish, YOU, as the dark lord, would probably die without it. The reason for the hollowment to the mind, well, has already been discussed before. Mostly doing with failure.

    I am not trying to destroy anyone, nor to show hatred. I am just pointing out some things. You can debate it against it, if you would like, but I shall defend it as well, unless I see proof as such in which weakens what I know, if not destroys it.
    it does make sense but i dont think personally that the resting a the bonfire reset time cause it would make no sense as of why Black knights and npc dont respawn.i think is just cause black knights and npc for some reason are not bounded to the bonfire.curious why though.
    compared to the factor of NG+ restart everything.which is why that i personally dont believe in the bonfire time reset thing


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by User on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:06 pm

    Tyhe Black Knights are... special. They are the enimates of the First Flame, similar to how the Chaos Demons are tied to the Chaos Flame. As the Bonfires are that of the First Flame, these creatures are OF the flame itself. As for the NPCs, it is hard to say why, although due to the factors that they might be a similar reasoning towards why we can not use a bonfire to phantoms could be so.

    The Black Knight is tied to the bonfires, definatly, as they are bound to the first flame. The black substance that you see when you hit the Black knight is that of similar status to Humanity. As it can be said, the Black Knights might be the result of Humanity itself... possibly. The reasoning, is that Gwyn had never any humanity on him, however he still existed as a guardian of the flame, as a firekeeper of sorts. As Gwyn might have sacrificed his humanity he got from the flames to his changed warriors to fight the chaos flame, it can be said that Gwyn sacrificed humanity that he got from bonfires, which are linked ot the flame, towards his warriors. It might be so, but it is a theory.

    As to why the Black Knights are Fighting the Chaos Flame... you can see on my thread. It is a sticky up high in the archives. I pretty much theorized on such things before, searching for the lore as I go.
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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by SilenceOfKnights on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:10 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:Tyhe Black Knights are... special. They are the enimates of the First Flame, similar to how the Chaos Demons are tied to the Chaos Flame. As the Bonfires are that of the First Flame, these creatures are OF the flame itself. As for the NPCs, it is hard to say why, although due to the factors that they might be a similar reasoning towards why we can not use a bonfire to phantoms could be so.

    The Black Knight is tied to the bonfires, definatly, as they are bound to the first flame. The black substance that you see when you hit the Black knight is that of similar status to Humanity. As it can be said, the Black Knights might be the result of Humanity itself... possibly. The reasoning, is that Gwyn had never any humanity on him, however he still existed as a guardian of the flame, as a firekeeper of sorts. As Gwyn might have sacrificed his humanity he got from the flames to his changed warriors to fight the chaos flame, it can be said that Gwyn sacrificed humanity that he got from bonfires, which are linked ot the flame, towards his warriors. It might be so, but it is a theory.

    As to why the Black Knights are Fighting the Chaos Flame... you can see on my thread. It is a sticky up high in the archives. I pretty much theorized on such things before, searching for the lore as I go.
    that maybe show why that they cant respawn cause they are humanity, when humanity is used it dosent come back, that can explain that.


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by User on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:11 pm

    Glad I can help. It is good to ask questions, my friend. If you need to know anything, just ask. I will be happy to answer when I am not busy.

    Happy Plaguing.
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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by Emergence on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:24 pm

    Sorry for the triple post but something I've been thinking about is the description of humanity.

    "If the soul is the source of all life, then what distinguishes the humanity we hold within ourselves."

    Well looking at that statement, I get a strong sense of a dualistic approach. An if-then paradigm. So:

    IF the soul is the source of all life
    THEN humanity is the end of all life

    Alpha to Omega, which would make Humanity's distinction mortality. When you have humanity you experience natural cycles of birth and death. Humans became separated from humanity and now experience Undeath.

    Fire is fed by humanity.
    Life is fed by death.

    When there is no death, the land and its inhabitants whither and decay (hollow). There is no more renewal taking place.

    So you have groups like the Darkwraiths who believe that hoarding humanity will stave off the decay. In a way they are trying to force death in an attempt to jumpstart the natural cycles again. So you would choose to kill Gwyn, and let the fire burn out thus protecting humanity from being offered up to the flames. But this does nothing to refuse humanity with humans and instead encourages humans to invade and war with one another.

    The converse is to side with the Deities and link the flame, bringing an end to humanity, which as Johnny mentioned is tantamount to a mass genocide. Not an ideal choice either.

    So third ending?

    Sure but perhaps not in the sense of a cinematic event. Remember when the game was still in development, Miyazaki-san alluded to the notion that the player need not ever beat the game. I think there is something to that. Maintenance of the status quo is often an overlooked choice people can make. Not ideal always but sometimes a precarious ledge is better than a fall. As Lordran is in it's current state, humans are a vibrant canvas of personalities. There is deceit, betrayal, but also faith and compassion. For every Lautrec, and Patches, there is an Andrei and Rhea.

    My .02


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:50 pm

    Emergence wrote:What I am most interested in is the implication the game makes that at a past point, humanity and humans were inseparable. What event caused that schism that has now resulted in a mad scramble for humanity and acts of desperation involving linking a fire that no one quite understands, not even Gwyn himself.

    I always assumed it was simply the curse that caused the schism. In fact, that's essentially what I believe the curse to be - a separation of Humans from their Humanity, thus allowing Humanity to be destroyed while simultaneously retaining the (Hollow) vessels, which then act as slaves to the Gods (or at least non-God-threatening beings).


    Last edited by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by User on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:51 pm

    Hm. perhaps. However, the aspect of hollows coming from lack of death seems unreasonable. The aspect of the Death can be seen everywhere threw out the game. The hollows are the spawns of incarnation, in which are created by the flame itself, after the death of the former body, replaced with a new. The sacrifice rings are that of a Humanity Ring, as the ring itself (as snuggly the crow hints in the Asylum) that the Sacrifice Rings are that of Humanity. As a being dies, they lose their human form. The Sacrifice Ring uses it as a surrogate of death, similar to purging stones to curses.

    As the flames are linked to time, it might be a set back towards the use of invasions VIA soapstone as well, as time would be more so... fixed, if the flame was removed. As for the Darkwraiths, they are creatures who do hoard humanity, indeed. However, as creatures of humanity, they all went hollow in the end (except for Kirk, who escaped. Artorias is unknown as what happened to him, but it might be that his Carcass is seen where the Wolf Ring is, as it is his). The Darkwraiths has plenty of humanity to derive from, as they were built to absorb humanity form others. They would have sufficed before the flood was removed. However, they did not.

    As for Flame Ending, I say yes, it is sketchy and probably dangerous as well. However the Dark Ending also has such potential as well, do not forget that. The 'third ending', although agreeable does not have to be a cinematic, emphasizes an end of things. In this sense, and end of different aspects of the story, the story of the adventures of the 'Chosen Undead', or the 'Undead Warrior', if you would rather believe in that Dragon. As the being continues in the world, it does not end until the strife is over. Not lighting or distinguishing the first flame is, above all not ending the story, as the goal is for the chosen undead to decide the fate of man, with other a third lighting of disparity with new Lords to obtain such Souls, or the Distinguishment of the Flame, in which has its own side effects and cons, along with its potential pros. If there is a Third Ending, IF there is, it would be buried deeply so.
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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by Emergence on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:23 pm

    Hm. perhaps. However, the aspect of hollows coming from lack of death seems unreasonable.

    It is a common literary device to use the elusiveness of death as a precursor to madness. Trading humanity for the ring demonstrates a person's ironic willingness to give up that which is most important to them, in order to avoid losing everything. The ring acts as a stand in for the individual which means in essence its is a living creature which the player sacrifices selfishly to not lose the fleeting items they cling to.

    The Darkwraiths has plenty of humanity to derive from, as they were built to absorb humanity form others. They would have sufficed before the flood was removed. However, they did not.

    I meant that hoarding humanity would not stave off becoming hollow. The schism rendered humanity's ability to stave off hollowness null.

    Not lighting or distinguishing the first flame is, above all not ending the story, as the goal is for the chosen undead to decide the fate of man, with other a third lighting of disparity with new Lords to obtain such Souls, or the Distinguishment of the Flame, in which has its own side effects and cons, along with its potential pros. If there is a Third Ending, IF there is, it would be buried deeply so.

    Taking an approach of non action is a decision. Plenty of times nations have been led by individuals who adopted a laissez faire approach to affairs.

    Forgive me if I can't reply at length or with frequency. It's tough to keep an eye on things and be this engaged lol.


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:29 pm

    Emergence, you should always write in gold.


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by User on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:35 pm

    Thank you for editing, Emrgence. I was trying to see what I and you have written.

    Death maybe the precursor to madness in most cases, in the sense that death forms before madness arrives (if that is what you are deriving towards in your speech). True, the Ring of Sacrifice is Ironic at best. However the player also sacrifices souls in order to grow as well (soul level of the character = higher soul quality of the player). The sacrifice of the Ring is in fact the sacrifice of Humanity, however that Humanity is that of a different entity than the player, in better aspects is the surrogate of a 'trapped' being that is sacrificed for the survival for the free willed. The death of the humanity of the ring may be similar to that as of how a player uses human form, in which the Humanity becomes left for others to obtain (the Puddles of Blood from such Phantoms and Heros, for example).

    I agree. it was not as clear in your post before to me.

    It is true, as you make a choice to make not a choice in a desision is a choice none the less. It follows the same premiss as the End. But as I said before, the journey of the Chosen Undead (or the player you are, if you perfer) does not end its story, until the being as the Chosen Undead is destroyed. that is to say, Paul (as an example) does not have an ending, until the identity of Paul is destoryed from future time lapse forever to ever interact. As the Chosen undead changes to either become the New Guardian of the Flame, or to become the new Dark Lord, the Chosen Undead ends. However, as the Chosen Undead still exists, it by no means ends at all. As the Lord of Sunlight died after lighting the flame as the second guardian, he became the Lord of Cinder, and lost his identity. Similar premise, as it may.

    It is fine. I am finished playing for today. I can wait for posts. I have to analyse things in dark Souls for the search of Lore, in which many I have skipped to finished others, or have forgotten. For now, i am in my thinking and puzzle shifting process. I have plenty of time to spare.
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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by Emergence on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:43 pm

    I actually mean that inability to die is the precursor to madness. It is often assumed that if given immortality, a human would go insane. Having a natural death to look forward to has, oddly enough, a normalizing effect on a human mind. It is an expected finality and we adjust and live our lives and make our decisions accordingly. You could argue that death is the genesis of rational thought. It forces one to make very practical assessments of the world around them.


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by User on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:51 pm

    That is true. As the characters you see go hollow have no signs of death, it could be that the lack of detah has lead to such things. And the ability to die does assets the fact that you are in fact human, and not entirely immortal (unlike Seath, who was before the crystal staff was destroyed, as well as the Stone Dragon in Ash Lake). However death being the genesis of rational thought... mostly it is.

    However, the premise of Death to prohibit madness is unlikely so. Not the madness of hollowment, but madness in general. If a being was strapped to a chair, and was whipped at every day, over and over again, they would feel the pain all day. If they feel the pain and do not die, with their minds (and Souls) going towards a place to 'rest' from the form of the body, that being that is whipped will go insane. Same as Death. If someone has died over and over again, never seeing any rest at all, will go to madness after he feels the pain of death countless times. It is that death gives rational thought of mortality, however a different madness will set in for, let us say, too much death. In a sense, a balance of being immortal and death would be more so than dying in general.

    But above all, I can agree to that assessment.

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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by Emergence on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:27 pm

    I imagine all of us who post in the Archives like this btw:



    Quite.


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by User on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:29 pm

    For some reason, I was thinking the same thing. Strange. I never see anyone like that, other than one of my friends being talkative of the world.

    Care for some for conversation? I would be happy to talk over things as I go along my assets at this time. I don't got a wine glass, nor wine, but I got other means of beverages at best.
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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by Emergence on Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:10 pm

    Haha yeah I am always up to discuss the lore. Tons of puzzle pieces to fit together. Whenever I can spare a minute I am on the wiki chat modding, feel free to shout at me there.


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by Carphil on Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:15 pm

    I'm not feeling very well right now, my skin is so strange! Maybe its time to do something about it.


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by User on Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:48 pm

    Alright, Cool. Never used the chat, but I can try it out. See you when I can.
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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by ublug on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:02 pm

    Many NPCs have a different view of what makes a hollow. When you attack or kill them they will say stuff like "You bloody Hollow!" and "No...impossible... Why didn't I see? ...You've gone Hollow...". So it might also be a state of mind, resorting to irrational actions like attacking your own kin.
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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

    Post by meridam99 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:05 pm

    Emergence wrote:I imagine all of us who post in the Archives like this btw:



    Quite.

    You picture yourself as a monacle wearing salty peanut?


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    Re: What makes someone turn Hollow? Also, Flame of Kindling and Reah.

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