It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

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    Slarg232
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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Slarg232 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:11 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:As I said, the rings would be the ONLY gear that modified things like this. blossoms and the shield wouldn't be in game, so the choice is valid and meaningful to your playstyle.

    Perhaps you're not supposed to have end game gear under sl 30? Did you consider that? That is the point of stat requirements, to reduced what is available to characters "unfit" for it.

    Light builds would still be able to use heavy weapons with mobility, just not with poise too.


    That almost every build invests to use it is what SHOWS how unbalanced it is. Look at akuma in streetfighter. everybody invested in him because he was freaking broken.

    Any 1 stat, item, character or spell that most EVERYONE invests in because its the BEST is the very definition of unbalanced. Its so good as to render everything else in its class useless by comparison.

    But there is a difference between everyone investing in it and ONLY being able to invest in it. Everyone invests in Health, for instance, but health is not broken (I know you didn't say it was, just generalizing). I am in the camp that beleives the RoFaP and Wolf rings are not the problem, the problem is not having anything better for alternative builds. Poison would be a thing if there was a ring to increase poison damage. Defensive rings would be a thing if there wasn't such deminishing returns on defense. Health gouge builds would be a thing if health didn't have such diminishing returns/more than 5% increased health.

    And as long as you can get a Claymore to + 5 Lightning, you will ALWAYS be able to have end game gear at SL 30, endurance has nothing to do with it. How powerful the rings are will not detract from how powerful those weapons are with the stats they require (10 Dex, 16 STR for a +5 Lightning Zwei if you 2hand it.)

    As for that build, Sloth, I see no problem with it; or rather, I wouldn't if those weren't the rings weren't the most powerful in teh game, hence why I think we need other, more powerful rings.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Slarg232 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:14 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:@slarg, with the extremely high damage/hp ratio, anything that even came close to as good as the fap, would render it useless and ensure everybody is being killed in 3 hits. The game mechanics don't support bringing everything up to the big 3, because I'd be 1shotting you with a club or doing 600 a counter with a chaos blade. Everything is already to strong for that, it needs to be dialed back. It doesn't need to be useless at all, but it needs to not be ridiculous. We don't need more ways to kill eachother in 3 hits.



    That is why I think we need to buff defenses (Or rather, take out the diminishing returns), so you have an actual reason to play a Tank Character. If I wanted 600 Armor (hypothetically), 40 resistance, RoSP and BTSR, I should NOT be penalized for that. Especially when some people have alot of fun tanking blows more fun than dealing damage, and there is OBVIOUSLY a call for coop Tank and Spanks with the Sunbro's.

    We would probably have to nerf and/or change Elemental weapons so as to not make Tanks with +5 Lightning Zwei's overpowered, though.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:20 pm

    http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=270312773632879698

    This is the same build but I traded the Uchi for a Claymore and the Grass Crest Shield for a Wooden Shield so I could still fastroll. I also raised the other stats to make it a quality build, with some attunement for Pyros.

    It ain't pretty, but it would gets the job done. My point is that this build is only possible because of those rings. If there had been alternatives then maybe things would be different. But as it is there are no alternatives, and so this build sacrifices nothing for those rings.

    Which is why we need to improve or remove the useless rings. Why does everyone think I want to nerf everything in the game? :|


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:23 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:21 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:
    Slarg232 wrote:
    Also, forgive me if I assumed wrong, but I thought we were talking more of a PVP/experianced players usage of rings, hence that post silly

    We are, you're the one who brought player who are struggling with the early parts of the game. How would they know where to get those rings without the wiki? those aren't meant to b early game rings.

    Also, everyone check out this build Pirate came up with and then get back to me:
    Forum Pirate wrote:http://mmdks.com/m41

    Fast roll, defenses just under the diminishing returns point (350), 58 poise with a backup weapon and heavier than necessary shield, 40 end, 40 sls to spare. Easy peasy.
    That was a proof of concept build if I remember right. What bearing does it have here?

    http://mmdks.com/og5 would be a better thing to demonstrate the power of havels/fap. End game defences, absurd damag


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:22 pm

    Removing diminishing returns would break pve, thats why they're there. (thats why they're there in many, many pve games)

    Even if you changed the scaling so 40 end now = 99 end "new" you'd either trivialise the decision making behind leveling in pve or make it take ages to level high enough for it to make a difference.


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:25 pm

    I had argued that you sacrificed two ring slots for that build, you pointed out that a melee build has no better alternatives. You were right.

    That's one of the reasons I created this thread. So people could come up with alternatives.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Slarg232 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:28 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Removing diminishing returns would break pve, thats why they're there. (thats why they're there in many, many pve games)

    Not necessarily; giving monsters a slight amount of armor penetration (Negate some of the benefit), simply increasing their damage a bit(Tank characters still get hit decently, light characters dodge it all so it don't matter), or simliar.

    For "Armor Penetration", just make it where there is a fourth damage type; "Monster", split the damage 80% Pyshical/20% Monster, and leave the Monster Defense low on all armors.

    And how is PVE broken when half the players who want to make tank characters but don't since they don't do anything can dodge everything thrown their way anyway?



    Even if you changed the scaling so 40 end now = 99 end "new" you'd either trivialise the decision making behind leveling in pve or make it take ages to level high enough for it to make a difference.
    No I beleive that will be a terrible idea. Honestly, I almost never go 40 End in my builds anyway, but still think that would be horrible.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:34 pm

    And either a light build does no damage at all because they have higher defences to compensate or a heavy build goes through half their hp in 1 hit.

    Tanks work great in pve now. other than that I don't understand the question.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by steveswede on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:44 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Perhaps you're not supposed to have end game gear under sl 30? Did you consider that? That is the point of stat requirements, to reduced what is available to characters "unfit" for it.

    The fact that the Souls games have elemental weapons for base investment and have rings that boost mobility for low stamina shows that From want's you to have flexible options. Have you ever done a low level run? to even get a fast roll with light armour and a standard weight weapon and shield requires over 76 equip and a pyromancer starts with I think 50 equip. Why should I have to invest a lot just so I don't have to be naked to fast roll.
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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:49 pm

    Low level runs are self imposed challenges, From has nothing to do with them.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Slarg232 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:57 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:And either a light build does no damage at all because they have higher defences to compensate or a heavy build goes through half their hp in 1 hit.

    Tanks work great in pve now. other than that I don't understand the question.

    Why can't tanks work great in PVP? What would make that so game breaking? We have people who hit for 700 damage per hit but can only take 1100, why is it we can't make people who only take 300 damage from the same hit but only deal out 300 per strike?

    There needs to be a gameplay mechanic of some form in place for slow rollers in full Havel's/Giants/Steel other than "I only take 100 less damage". Defense is a worthless stat in this game in general; why take any hit when you can just dodge it in the first place? We need to give people who don't WANT to dodge a reason NOT to have to dodge. This is a roleplay game, after all.

    When I play DotA, I like characters like Axe, Sven, Centaur, and Skeleton King. For those of you whom don't know much about DotA, each one of those characters are the types who can book it into the thick of the fight and just TANK. In Halo Reach, I liked Armor Lock, turning you invulnerable for a few seconds. In Planetside 2, I like Heavy Assault, which has the ability to activate a sheild to absorb double damage.

    What does all that have to do with Dark Souls? It's currently impossible for me to play the type of character I want. If I wanted to play a Pure tank, I would use Sanctus, Replenishment, Meat Cleaver, Steel Armor, RoSP, and Ring of the Evil Eye. There is only one problem with that; by Sen's Fortress, you just don't have enough defense to be able to "Tank" blows like any true tank should be able to.

    -Armor is capped, and it doesn't even go high enough to make a difference in the damage you take. Especially since you are so slow you take more hits. Not to mention Steel Armor is expensive to upgrade.
    - Ring of the Evil Eye gives you thirty health per kill when most enemies will hit you for 200 a hit. And then imagine NG+, NG++, NG+++, so on.
    -Santus is 2 HP per 2 seconds. That's just worthless health regen.
    -600 Health Regen over a minute? Over a minute, I could get hit twice and lose all of that....
    -Meat Cleaver gives you 5 hp per hit, has a SLOW swingspeed, and again, most things hit you for 200 at least.

    None of that adds up to a viable tank, even in NG. What's worse, try tanking in NG++, you won't. If I want to play the slow and steady type, the "I WILL MURDER YOU...... When I get there" type, I can't do that. Hell, even Iron Flesh got nerfed to where you still take significant damage while using it, and even then, that's a buff. You don't need buffs to deal huge amounts of damage, why should I need buffs to tank?


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:02 pm

    Tanks are perfectly viable in PVP, it's mostly in PVE where they fall short. However that's mostly for bosses, for everything else it's called a "shield".


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by steveswede on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:07 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:Low level runs are self imposed challenges, From has nothing to do with them.

    But From did have intentions for powerful weapons with base level stats. Elemental weapons and obsidian sword for example are for low level, NG+ playthroughs. I wouldn't be surprised From wants you to have options for everything low level. Pyromancies, Oolacile catalyst, Thorolund talisman, elemental weapons, rings that boost range of stats and damage. It's a bit hard to say it wasn't intentional.
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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:07 pm

    ^ tyats a turtle, not a tank.


    They can work great in pvp. With my proposed system, light builds would be seriously lacking in hp and/or defence and/or poise, where taks regenerate stamina slowly and mid builds are a balance, as enforced by their ring choice. it also opens up status builds (poision and bleed) builds of the varying types, but at a loss of some of their tanking, magic or gurilla prowes.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:10 pm

    steveswede wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Low level runs are self imposed challenges, From has nothing to do with them.

    But From did have intentions for powerful weapons with base level stats. Elemental weapons and obsidian sword for example are for low level, NG+ playthroughs. I wouldn't be surprised From wants you to have options for everything low level. Pyromancies, Oolacile catalyst, Thorolund talisman, elemental weapons, rings that boost range of stats and damage. It's a bit hard to say it wasn't intentional.

    I'll recognize them as intentional the day I see a trophy for it.

    Pirate: I don't see why a tank can't carry shield without being a turtle. Tank or no Tank, titanite Demons will wreck you if you don't have a shield.


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:11 pm

    steveswede wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Low level runs are self imposed challenges, From has nothing to do with them.

    But From did have intentions for powerful weapons with base level stats. Elemental weapons and obsidian sword for example are for low level, NG+ playthroughs. I wouldn't be surprised From wants you to have options for everything low level. Pyromancies, Oolacile catalyst, Thorolund talisman, elemental weapons, rings that boost range of stats and damage. It's a bit hard to say it wasn't intentional.
    but it is very easy to say that they simply intended to allow builds focused on strength (just an example) to be able to experiment with another stat type, to get the basics but not the best and you simply choose to use it to do low sl runs when that wasn't intended. Pointless debate is pointless.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:23 pm

    The stoneplate ring and ring of physical defense could block an additional 30% damage of the respective damage types, but increase equip burden (ie the ring "weighs," say, 20 units)

    To clarify, it wouldn't block 30% of the damage they do, but increase the damage your armor stops by 30%. If your armor would stop 200 damage, it stops 260. It is useless to light armours, as there armor is weak, but tanks can tank away. They're not concerned about speed anyways.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:28 pm

    again the values arn't set, just examples.

    I'm goin to bed, fyi. done for the moment


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by steveswede on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:35 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    steveswede wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Low level runs are self imposed challenges, From has nothing to do with them.

    But From did have intentions for powerful weapons with base level stats. Elemental weapons and obsidian sword for example are for low level, NG+ playthroughs. I wouldn't be surprised From wants you to have options for everything low level. Pyromancies, Oolacile catalyst, Thorolund talisman, elemental weapons, rings that boost range of stats and damage. It's a bit hard to say it wasn't intentional.
    but it is very easy to say that they simply intended to allow builds focused on strength (just an example) to be able to experiment with another stat type, to get the basics but not the best and you simply choose to use it to do low sl runs when that wasn't intended. Pointless debate is pointless.

    Pointless counter argument.
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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:40 pm

    You bringing up low-level runs, where everything is unbalanced, in a thread about balance is pointless .


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:43 pm

    Your argument was pointless. Its circumstantial, I can simply view it in a different and entirely logical manner to invalidate it.

    Right, seriously, bed now.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:53 pm

    Oh my god, this thread really exploded..

    I think we need a chill the *** out ring right about now.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:14 pm

    Purity Ring: Let 'em know that you ain't gonna give it up without a wedding ring on your finger.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by steveswede on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:23 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:You bringing up low-level runs, where everything is unbalanced, in a thread about balance is pointless .

    All I'm reading is that you don't care for the low level build, so it's irrelevant. Rings play a big part in taking advantage of putting power where it's needed in a low level toon, they are not just for higher level builds. If they were they would have a minimum stat requirement.

    And as for the not intended, then why allow it Forum Pirate. Last time I checked an RPG is for you to build your own character. They ain't half some BS excuses being thrown as argument here, topped nicely with the excuse that maybe you're not supposed to have end level gear under lvl30.
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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:33 pm

    It's not that I don't care for them, however they are completely unbalanced and that can't be changed. It's in their nature. Use Great Combustion with +5 Acended pyromancy flame on another SL1 chacter, It's a 1HKO. Same goes for most elemental weapons.



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