I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

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    I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by GenericUsername on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:36 pm

    Before I start I feel I should mention that this is in no way an " I'm better than you lol u suck " kind of thread. If it comes off that way, well then sorry.

    Of course I've been reading all of the Dark souls 2 articles I could find and of course there's a flood of comments about how accessibility will ruin the series blah blah blah. But I've really seen comments saying how the series required, and I quote " a higher intellect to play ". This kind of statement makes me question any amount of gaming sklls you have honestly, because I feel like as long as your brain is functioning within any " normal " parameters, then this game shouldn't have been THAT hard. Now sure this game was challenging, I wouldn't dare say it was some sort of breezy walk through the park either. It did have its difficult moments, but its not as if the entirety of the game was just complete, unrelentless, non consensual buttplay.

    Now as far as accessibility, how long would it really take someone to get the controls and feel down? For a new player it could definitely be a little overwhelming at first, but then after a few minutes you get used to it and you're fine. And for a Souls vet I imagine it would take even less time. So they do make it easier to understand, then any newcomer that for whatever reason wanted to play could understand, and any Souls vet would have just gotten it down fairly fast anyway, who gets hurt? Or do you value that 5 minutes of intro THAT much?

    I mean, if Miyazaki isn't even worried about a new Dev team brutally **** his brain child, why should you be worried? So I don't know, do you feel as if there is a sort of elitism that comes with playing the souls games?
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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by ChizFreak on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:41 pm

    When talking to new people, yes. Mainly because one of the things Dark Souls provides is the feeling of being "strong", "capable", "better" because you manage to overcome that challenge. It's one of the best things of Dark Souls.

    But at the same time it some times cause people to say things like "I'm leetz because I beat Dark Souls." and degrade people that don't like Dark Souls or thinks it's too difficult. Well, is that true? Do DkS veterans are better than those people? I don't know. I'm just trying to tell you the reason I believe people tend to act like that.


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by eminusx on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:54 pm

    Err maybe with some people it can come across as elitism, but with most (most on here at least!) its a heartfelt appreciation for something done extremely well, and naturally that they dont want to change, within reason.

    We could look at any number of similar forms of artistic entertainment that would get the same reaction, and with good reason, call it artistic integrity if you will, or a lack of compromise. That isnt being poncey or elitist, its just so refreshing to see something so staunchly independent after enduring so many years of handholding and patronising games design.


    Last edited by eminusx on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by GenericUsername on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:59 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:When talking to new people, yes. Mainly because one of the things Dark Souls provides is the feeling of being "strong", "capable", "better" because you manage to overcome that challenge. It's one of the best things of Dark Souls.

    But at the same time it some times cause people to say things like "I'm leetz because I beat Dark Souls." and degrade people that don't like Dark Souls or thinks it's too difficult. Well, is that true? Do DkS veterans are better than those people? I don't know. I'm just trying to tell you the reason I believe people tend to act like that.

    So basically people should just leave their ego at the door then? I didn't ever really feel accomplished or anything after beating some boss or level or anything. It just kinda felt like " oh I beat _____. Cool " Maybe I'm weird.
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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by ChizFreak on Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:01 pm

    GenericUsername wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:When talking to new people, yes. Mainly because one of the things Dark Souls provides is the feeling of being "strong", "capable", "better" because you manage to overcome that challenge. It's one of the best things of Dark Souls.

    But at the same time it some times cause people to say things like "I'm leetz because I beat Dark Souls." and degrade people that don't like Dark Souls or thinks it's too difficult. Well, is that true? Do DkS veterans are better than those people? I don't know. I'm just trying to tell you the reason I believe people tend to act like that.

    So basically people should just leave their ego at the door then? I didn't ever really feel accomplished or anything after beating some boss or level or anything. It just kinda felt like " oh I beat _____. Cool " Maybe I'm weird.

    Well, it really saddens me you didn't get to experience the same feeling most of us experience in our first Dark Souls playthrough.


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by eminusx on Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:02 pm

    GenericUsername wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:When talking to new people, yes. Mainly because one of the things Dark Souls provides is the feeling of being "strong", "capable", "better" because you manage to overcome that challenge. It's one of the best things of Dark Souls.

    But at the same time it some times cause people to say things like "I'm leetz because I beat Dark Souls." and degrade people that don't like Dark Souls or thinks it's too difficult. Well, is that true? Do DkS veterans are better than those people? I don't know. I'm just trying to tell you the reason I believe people tend to act like that.

    So basically people should just leave their ego at the door then? I didn't ever really feel accomplished or anything after beating some boss or level or anything. It just kinda felt like " oh I beat _____. Cool " Maybe I'm weird.

    nah thats not weird at all man, you feel however you feel, I felt a fair rush of accomplishment after I'd beaten many of the bosses in DS, but thats probably cause I got my ar$e handed to me more times than you did! big grin


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by carlucio on Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:09 pm

    I have nothing agains't elitism, a important part of my sense of acomplishment came from beating a game that many people ragequited.
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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:18 pm

    I can't say I'm not elietist, because I am, but the elietism isn't why I'm against changes.

    There are always ways and opportunities to be justifiably elietist if thats the goal. I spent 2 months in the top 10 blur players and had the highest win percentage of them at 76% and was ranked in the top 10% of halo reach players for a year. I'm justifiably proud of these things, but making it easier to do in a sequel wouldn't change the difficulty of doing it when I did it. It wouldn't undermine my pride or its justifications.

    As eminusx said, resisting changes is rooted, at least for me, in a simple desire to see a series I like retain what I feel made it great.


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by MasterofShadows on Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:28 pm

    There are elitists, and there are just people that are concerned. I know, elitists can be jerks sometimes. It's in their nature. But please don't mix them together. There are perfectly nice and welcoming people in the community that share their concerns about the series. Some are more irrational, resistant, and stubborn, while others are more forthcoming, logical, and peaceful about how they express their problems. Some, while still concerned, are open to see what the changes (and there will be changes) actually look like in practice. Just like any community, they are quite diverse. Please keep that in mind.


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:28 pm

    I've played these games since the beginning, I would hope that my continued support is more important to From than that of a new guy(who may or may not like the games, and just end up returning them).

    I have nothing against new players though, and welcome the chance to play with/against more people.


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:34 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by Djem on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:02 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:When talking to new people, yes. Mainly because one of the things Dark Souls provides is the feeling of being "strong", "capable", "better" because you manage to overcome that challenge. It's one of the best things of Dark Souls.

    But at the same time it some times cause people to say things like "I'm leetz because I beat Dark Souls." and degrade people that don't like Dark Souls or thinks it's too difficult. Well, is that true? Do DkS veterans are better than those people? I don't know. I'm just trying to tell you the reason I believe people tend to act like that.

    No, we are not better than those people.

    ...

    We just have better taste in games. Praise the Sun

    But yeah, elitism is bad kids. No need to scare people off the forums.
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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:23 pm

    I'd say Dark Souls does require more intelligence than a lot of other games, but it's more so that the average gamer does have the capability. It's whether you pay attention and learn about the game itself or give up. Most games you can breeze through, Dark Souls makes you wait, watch, and then act, rather than just act like so many others. More than anything it's about your ability to learn or pay attention to your surroundings.

    The way they talk about it, making the game more accessable does have me a bit worried. But I need to know what they mean. Making menus easier to use, that's something I'd love. Making it easier to understand the impact of stats or know what a weapon's effects mean, sure that's good.

    Making bosses easier to beat, making it so NPC's literally tell you how to do everything, aspects like that I heavily dislike.

    I may be a cynic that is really worried about the game, but I'm not going to jump to any conclusions indefinitely. I'm just concerned is all.
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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:30 pm

    Being elietist about elietism is still being elietist, just saying.

    Anyways, being elietist isn't about telling people they suck and should die. Thats being an *** hole.

    Élitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an élite – a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, higher intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes – are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

    While this belief can be bad, it can be justified and constructive. Ie if someone hasn't played darksouls, their opinion on its mechanics should carry little weight, where the person who has played for 1000 hours likely has a highly informed opinion.


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by Emergence on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:55 pm

    This game is not special because it is exclusive, it is special because of what it elicits in the players. If it had nothing of value to offer beyond difficulty it would not generate the fervor amongst the community that it has.

    That said, the difficulty is the crucible from which the special experiences are forged. It is the challenge to achieve that drive the players ever onwards.

    You can debate the intelligence quotient required of the individuals playing the game but in truth there are games whose mechanics and intricacies go far deeper. If there are any quality the game demands from an individual, I would say they are persistence and adaptation. Those are the faculties From seeks to inspire, so any striving to preserve that intention is not elitist but devotion. Few if any are bemoaning the influx of more people into the fold, I think most of us wished all of our friends played the game, but also played the game in a way that preserved the multitude and variety of special experiences that we have all seen and shared.

    Any refinements to the formula that make the game more approachable while preserving the commitment to persistence and adaptation would be completely appreciated by any dedicated fan of the series. But if conceptual changes are made to that formula, then the soul of the series will change. Not necessarily for better or worse, but away from the things that have threaded the series thus far and towards a different demographic completely.


    Last edited by Emergence on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:56 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by aprilmanha on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:55 pm

    I beat Dark Souls, I expect the next game will be fine. Its just another game after all. To be honest I expect the next game will see lots of vets crying because its to easy... but that's only going to be because they are already vets, not that the game will be any easier.
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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by The Letter X on Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:51 pm

    Dark Souls was a huge game-changer for me. Before I played Dark Souls, I would have considered myself a casual, or maybe even mainstream gamer. I enjoyed FPS's more than any other types of games, and Skyrim was the only real RPG I played on a console.I believe most if not all of you know the difficulty and learning curves of these games - nothing compared to Dark Souls.

    After playing DkS, I literally became a better gamer. I actually started using my intellect for not only the difficult game that is Dark Souls, but decided to use it for the other games I enjoyed. And you know what? I was better than I ever was before. My K/D in Halo went up from a 1.5 to a 2.5, and my K/D in CoD more than doubled by going up from a ~1 to a 2.25. I am honestly proud of that, even though it's not the best.

    I don't know if I'd call myself an elitist, but I almost am when it comes to video games currently. I don't care about shooters and the like any more, but I am not satisfied with anything less than my best when it comes to Dark Souls PvP. It's not even a game focused on it, but going through my 80+ hour first playthrough of it changed me so entirely that I wanted to be the best - something that I've never wanted to be in my life. It's really kind of a cheesy story, but Dark Souls gives me motivation to try my hardest in other games.

    I won't mind if they got rid of some of the stuff that I liked about in the first place. I'd be happy knowing that even more people might experience even a fraction of what I did and I won't mind experiencing it again myself.


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:45 pm

    why did aprilmanha's post get down repped? it makes sense, unless the core mechanics of the game are changed any souls vet will be able to pick up and hold their own against the next game in minutes, the most a vet will have to learn is a new system like how we had to learn the poise system when transitioning from demons to dark souls...


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:52 pm

    It was worded in a way that could be considered insulting. He's right, but he could have maybe been more polite about it.

    I know I found Demon's Souls to be incredibly easy, but I played it second.
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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:53 pm

    Thats not the game being easier or less punishing, thats the player being better. The implication that gamers can't tell the difference is rather insulting.

    I knew the dks mechanics within minutes from demons and breased through most of the basic stuff. Its not hard to tell though that the game retained its difficulty as whenever I made a mistake it cost me 1/4+ of my health.


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:58 pm

    To be honest I have seen this on the forum, and as an admittedly average at best gamer I've seen people with attitudes of elitism, that anyone who chooses to be a ganker or griefer must be some 12 year old scrub since they don't play properly (hell at one time dark moons got same treatment), people can sometimes be.. Presumptuous. There are other examples but they are too specific, I'm not alienating anyone or trying to start a witch hunt here.

    However, I get what you're saying, but frankly that doesn't change the fact that watering down souls so more people but it would ruin the series. I'm all for getting a bigger fan base, but if the changes are just a slight subtle change that aids the player in learning and can enrich the discovery of the game then I'm all for it. Still though people's objections to accessibility are a wholly different issue, it's more a persons temperament on test in souls than their intellect or skill as a gamer.

    There is an issue with elitism sometimes, but to be honest it's less to do with the series and more to do with certain people who play it. In a game that bills itself as a kind of modern day trophy kill, it's bound to attract a few arrogant wankers who think they're the hottest **** in gaming, to put it bluntly


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by aprilmanha on Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:29 am

    I only said what I said because we already have "Hardcore Vet Players" complaining that the next game will be too easy and will be the death of the series, etc etc.

    Games rarely have huge mechanics overhauls between sequels, and I am fully expecting to trounce through the next game when it comes out, especially if they put in half the changes I would like happy.

    Generally for a veteran player the only way the next game is easy, is if they change nothing.
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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:38 am

    True story April, I myself went to demons as a dark vet and found it fun but straightforward. You can just tell where everything is going and how to kill everything easier once you're used to the series


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by sinspaw on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:33 pm

    You have some valid points OP.

    Still, I for one am the kind of person that thinks elitism and intellectual superiority syndrome can be justified. Why shouldn't I feel better about myself for the fact that I play a game that has subtlety, complex mechanics and requires you to think often; over games that are either too straight forward, or a push button and smash everything or auto aim headshotting everyone, and whatever else. Hell, even comparing souls to scrolls... I love the open world of the scrolls games but to say that it requires you to be paying attention to kill enemies in those games is to lie.

    That's how I feel anyway.
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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by ComaPrison on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:37 pm

    As my Dean once said in a speech, "you can be elite without being elitist." It all depends on staying humble and respectful.


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    Re: I'm sick of the " elitism " from the souls series

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:59 pm

    Im sorry, Im a bit drunk, and Im a bit anrgy, though not becuse of anything in particular, and I think the souls series does produce "better" quality gamers! Or perhaps not better quality but possesing of better virtues.

    I can't explain the number of times I have been disgusted at the state of casual gamers because they can't figure out the simplest of things, the number of times people expect to be guided through games because they can't be bothered to even think about the scenario presented to them, the countless times they have praised auto aim or OHKO's because they couldn't stand fighting enemies for more than a few seconds....

    Its pitiful. The new generations of gamers are weak. They know nothing of struggle, they plaay games that are made movies for them, they barely challenge themselves.

    I know thing because I challenged a casual to play dark souls and he couldnt beat the Taurus Demon. He couldnt get past the Black Knight. He was weak.

    There are levels of gamership whether you want to admit it or not. Some people are less equal than others, they can't handle the tasks that others can.


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