Would you consider this a double standard?

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    Back Lot Basher
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    Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:10 pm

    I stumbled across a heated debate about griefers (I know...dead horse) the other day on another forum. One particular player had VERY strong opinions against the entire concept of griefing in the Burg and Parish with OP gear. He was adament that these people were not just poor sports, but sociopaths.

    However, by random chance, I had my sign down for my low-level toon in the Parish, and this same person from the forums summoned me. He was in the Parish with a low-level character on NG+ summoning new players, most of whom were getting destroyed.

    I'm not sure how to feel about this. I've seen lots of people doing it, and I actually enjoy jumping into some NG+ and beyond with a low level toon, just to test the mettle, so to speak. However, for new people using base weapons and shields, and getting no warning about what they've been summoned into, I can't imagine this being anything but frustrating and/or humiliating. They're not really losing any humanity or souls, though.

    So, my question is, if someone is dead set against any sort of griefing - his main point was that new players are being forced to fight enemies with level-inappropriate gear - does this constitute a double standard? Or would you classify them as two different issues altogether?

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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by callipygias on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:18 pm

    They're separate, but if he wasn't warning phantoms then it's still pretty hypocritical.

    I do that sometimes in the Burg/Parish for fun, but I always send a quick ++++++ or whatever, if they're in starter gear. If they're in op gear I rarely warn them though. I hate op co-op early game, and it's my way of saying, 'If you're good enough to have those weapons here then you should be able to survive.'


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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Sentiel on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:28 pm

    I've had a character on SL1 in NG+7 with Taurus Demon alive and summoned people in there. In most cases I aimed for OP gear using low SL players, to tech them a lesson. It was fun watching them getting one shotted by hollows. I wish I could team up with a Gravelord to make it even worse for them. twisted

    Under no circumstances, I would summon someone with normal looking gear there. While some may find that enjoybale, like me, to be put up against these odds, most people just want to enjoy the game. So ruining the game for them just raises the chances that they will leave one of the best games ever, only because of some a**hole that has kicks from one shotting new players.

    To answer the question, they're separate in my opinion.
    Additionally, the person, comparing these players to sociopaths should make a psychological study on recent FPS communities, it would be enjoybale read. lol!


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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by callipygias on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:38 pm

    Sentiel wrote:Under no circumstances, I would summon someone with normal looking gear there.
    As long as I warn them, most people seem to really enjoy it. Most of them msg me, "Again, please!" after dying. Though they only do it once, usually, lol.

    One guy asked to try again because he really needed the souls, so I told him to hang back. He cleaned up (plus I dropped him a couple Hero souls). Instead of farming NG stuff for the 20,000 needed for the Crest of Artorias, he got it all in one summons.


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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:43 pm

    Something I should have mentioned is the gear I was using:

    Heater Shield +14
    Fire Rapier +5
    Wanderer Coat
    Black Leather Boots
    Wanderer Manchette

    Even though I had enough upgrades to survive, to the host, I could easily have been a beginner.

    I just think that sending a message BEFORE throwing people to the wolves is decent.

    Sentinel, I like your reasoning...if someone looks like they've been powering through the game, then all bets are off. But starting class gear should be spared, if you ask me.
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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:56 pm

    It's pretty hypocritical, I'm surprised that many low levels would use a read sign though. It kind of seems like it would have a low impact just because so few people would trust it. I could see it ruining their view of dueling for the future though.
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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:01 pm

    I believe I likened them to sociopath's at one point, but my only toon is 300+ so it couldn't have been me lol.

    The person getting invaded is also a griefer though(not sure about summoning reds though, since to have a red sign you need to at least get to the painted world of aramis), They're either fighting a new player who just wasted 1 of 4(I think) cracked red eye stones. Or they're fighting other griefers. Griefer's create a need for anti griefers, which creates a need for more griefers, both of which are just as bad.

    And all people who play FPS's are sociopaths! silly

    Edit: Wait, they were summoning new players so that they would have to fight NG+ enemies? haha that's pretty funny. Mean, but funny.


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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Jansports on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:19 pm

    Griefing comes in many forms. But put simply it is any behaviour in game with which is perpetrator's intent is to cause Grief to another player. Be it ganking, invading low levels, "hosting" with Chameleon or an SK cosplay in Anor Londo and never revealing yourself....ect. ect.

    I would imagine, most people do not enjoy dieing in game. Sure we all know it happens and it will keep happening, but it's not like if I died on the run to capra cause I was stupid I don't think "#^% !#*&^@$& stupid dogs"

    He's griefing.

    Also there have been no substantiated studies that would show a Causal link between mental health troubles and video games of any genre.

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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by callipygias on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:24 pm

    For most of us, 'griefing' has a specific meaning in Dark Souls. Or at least 'griefers' do.


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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Sentiel on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:27 pm

    I'm honestly suprised that hiding from and invader can be considered griefing. Maybe the word holds stronger meaning than it should for me...

    It seems like I've been acting like a terrible a**hole for most of the time I've spend playing online.
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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Jansports on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:30 pm

    So summoning legit new players into NG+5 Gargs and laughing when they die is...not causing them grief?

    Because if it causes grief let me tell ya...it's griefing

    @Sent: If I were to go to a PvP hotspot like Dark Londo in human form then hide forever, as in this is my intent my intent is to draw a random dorkmoon into my game then never fight him, I would both be frustrating for him and denying him the basic experience of dorkmooning, essentially wasting both our times.

    again if it causes grief, it's griefing that's what the word means.
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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:41 pm

    Jansports wrote:It would both be frustrating for him and denying him the basic experience of dorkmooning, essentially wasting both our times.

    This was the thought that came to mind when I started thinking about what the guy was doing. Wasting someone's time. A new player with a Longsword +1 and a base shield is going to last about 10 seconds unless he's a prodigy. All this does is get him thumped, and maybe be shy about putting down his sign. Although unlikely, the worst case scenario is he/she thinks the enemies inside the church are just THAT strong, and they quit playing. I'd hate to see someone turned off this great game for something as dumb as this.
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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:50 pm

    Oh I totally misunderstood this, I thought you were talking about him putting down his red sign for people to summon him, and mistaking it for a sign to summon a helper.
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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Sentiel on Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:05 pm

    @Jans
    Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing this for me. I always thought that behavior like this isn't griefing.

    I'm kind of suprised to find myself being quite a griefer... :/

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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:24 pm

    Griefers= sociopaths? Does he even know what a sociopath is? I doubt it. This is just a game, (one of the best games ever, IMO), but a game nonetheless.

    Anyone that hates griefers that much should not be doing anything near "griefing".


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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Jansports on Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:31 pm

    Sentiel wrote:@Jans
    Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing this for me. I always thought that behavior like this isn't griefing.

    I'm kind of suprised to find myself being quite a griefer... :/

    It's not the end of the world, after all you yourself may get enjoyment out of it, Griefing has a negative connotation, and I adamantly think it should be kept away from new players as, as you said, it could discourage them from continuing to play this great game, but I still enjoy Chameleoning myself in the forest, or making the jump with the fog intact and trapping forest hunters there from time to time.

    I guess it's sorta human nature to carry a bit of Schadenfruede
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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Unpopular Opinions on Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:38 pm

    Why do people get so worked up about griefing? It's part of the multiplayer experience.
    I for one, enjoy invading Parish with OP weapons and pyromancies.


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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:39 pm

    Unpopular Opinions wrote:Why do people get so worked up about griefing? It's part of the multiplayer experience.
    I for one, enjoy invading Parish with OP weapons and pyromancies.

    Yes you're right, that's why cracked red eye stones are just littered all over the Burg/Parish.


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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by billy_bayonet on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:07 pm

    Unpopular Opinions wrote:Why do people get so worked up about griefing? It's part of the multiplayer experience.
    I for one, enjoy invading Parish with OP weapons and pyromancies.


    i dare you to invade me............


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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Odinbear on Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:50 am

    I found 4 cracked red eye orbs in fire link and invaded 4 x. Me thinks you is supposed to invade early. Teach them noobs a lesson. Hehe


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    Re: Would you consider this a double standard?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:54 am

    Odinbear wrote:I found 4 cracked red eye orbs in fire link and invaded 4 x. Me thinks you is supposed to invade early. Teach them noobs a lesson. Hehe

    Yeah, you got 4 tries regardless of whether you fail or succeed. Griefers and Anti-griefers ruin the experience for new players in general, both hosts and invaders.


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