Pyro Buff.

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    lordgodofhell
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by lordgodofhell on Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:47 pm

    A lot good opinions here on both sides of the debate.

    I personally would love to see a fire damage pyro buff with an animation like Gwynns blade fully covering the entire weapons blade and hilt.

    As far as damage output, it should be less than CMW,SLB,DMB. We need no stat investment so it makes no sense to match them in power.

    Fire Resin is 80 points of damage. The "Pyro Blade" buff requires at least a pyro glove which resin does not. Meaning it should deal more than 150 points fire ( the dmg of lightning rez)

    Rynn as always comes up with a great idea for how it would scale with the Mag Adj. However, I was thinking more of a static damage similiar to power withins static damage.

    It would add a percentage of your Weapons AR to decide its damage. I get this idea from Power withins mechanics. This would add the most fire bonus benefit to str users but ultimately help dex users as well due to their higher dps.

    I think adding things like this are a great way to enhance the game. It would not be OP as we have so many ways of balancing it. Shorter spell duration, perhaps it takes up 2 slots to use. My fan fiction idea would be you find it somewhere in the Demon Ruins on the corpse of Salamaan big grin


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:25 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:So it's the second option.
    I was scared for a second there.

    You've still completely and utterly failed to demonstrate how your assertion that anything even slightly stronger than resins would be overpowering, considering that I've demonstrated that such a buff costs more than resins by a significant amount.

    Your point about stat investment to optimize is irrelevant. There is a real cost above resin uses (and that cost would justify somewhat higher strength) and you can't deny or counter that, so you resort to insults. Nice try though.
    I have already explained that in one of my previous posts.

    You've failed to comprehend my previous posts and the reason behind them and also to adress them properly, instead, you're adressing something irrelevant, that has no connection to what I wrote, aside from something you have clearly fabricated in your mind. As such this debate is over, unless you start to adress my points correctly.
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Jansports on Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:01 pm

    Sentiel wrote:Considering stat investments, you can have 50 Vit, 40 End and 45 Dex (for max casting speed) to be a good Pyromancer. Now, if you use Power Within, it will give you a 40% boost to everything, but drain 1% of your HP for 100 seconds. Unless you heal at least 1 HP, it will kill you, true, but the damage boost gained is far better than weapon buffs, because it also makes your spells stronger. Not only that, but it lasts for 100 seconds and can be prolonged with a ring, while weapon buff lasts for lesser amount of time.

    Anyhow, if Pyromancy had a weapon buff, even if it was the weakest one in the game (but still stronger than using a Resin) it would be still OP, because you can, with the above stats, use that buff to it's full potential and don't have to sacrifice anything for it, while Int and Faith users, must sacrifice many points into their respective stat for the buff to reach it's full potential. By then, they usually have lower Vit and End that this Pyromancer would.

    You can combine Int/Faith weapon buffs and use Power Within as well, however such a build, to reach max damage on SL 120 has to sacrifice stats, while Pyro doesn't and that is keeping the balance. While Pyro has lower damage, he has more Vit and End.

    Now, that is all considering you're going for max damage. If you're not, and you're satisfied with, let's say basic requirements to use Int/Faith buffs and have still high Vit and End (even though you would have to sacrifice something the Pyro doesn't have to, but in much smaller scale), then the buff won't do as much damage and will be on par with PW, or even lower (depending on weapon chosen etc).

    Last, but not the least.
    Pyro can always use Resins. While their damage buff is very small, they can give you chip damage ability, normal +15 lacks and you can use them to inflict Poison on your opponent, which is awesome if you want to pressure someone, or just fighting a turtle.

    But you're still wrong.

    A 2 attunment slot buff got pyro DOES require investment, at least 4 soul levels worth. Since every buff takes at least 1 slot (except resins) We can effectively reduce the "cost" of the buff to 1 attunment slot.

    What is the cost of a single attunment slot? Well If you have as you said 45 dex for max casting speed I assume you are at LEAST using GC (as 45 dex is really only super meaningful because kick-GC only works at the literal cap) and you might just have Great Fireball, maybe even fire surge. So you have Adding 2 slots on top of that is a 5 soul level investment. If you use Chaos fireball even more because you now need Six slots total.

    Lets imagine instead for a moment you have 14 attunment, you could ad 7 soul levels to a Pyromancer for 1 more slot 5 Int and simply use the 198 bonus magic damage of GMW. Now a 150 Pine resin is a Zero Soul level investment. Which means ~48 buff AR is worth 7 soul levels. Which is something like 6.8 AR on the buff per Soul level invested.

    While it would be possible to Gain the advantage of the buff with as little as 2 soul levels, it would often take 3 and perhaps even more, For 3 soul levels a 179 (a mere 29 over pine resin) is near on point in terms of Power Per Soul Level, this isn't considering Fire is typically a much higher defensive stat that Magic or Lightning and thusly any bonus fire damage would be worth even less than it is on paper.

    Honestly knowing that I would scoff at and rarely if ever use a 179 fire buff as I had proposed as a "not over powered" version because it'd be bad. That's right a buff stronger than a Resin for Pyromancy would be used LESS than Resin because it would be less effective at killing people.

    That's no OP. It's barely a cosmetic nicety at this point. Some people want a damn fire sword, it would look cool. Big *** Deal
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Sentiel on Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:30 am

    Look Skyward
    Why are you quoting me and talking about Att slots?
    I never mentioned those.

    I am comparing the max damage potential, of Int/Faith buffs VS theoretical Pyro buff.

    In which case, the latter need 45/50 points to reach the maximum damage, while Pyro would need no investment at all.

    Talking about Att slots is pointless, as we are already talking about buffs, having buffs without Att slot to use, makes the buff unusable, thus it doesn't even belong to this conversation (about what I wrote).

    Also, sacrificing few points to get 1-2 Att slots (depending on which version of the buffs cost you wish to follow) is hardly comparable to Int/Faith investment, not to mention that they also need those Att slots to use their own respective buffs, making Att slots something all sides need to have, thus pointless to debate about really.

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Jansports on Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:46 am

    So your complaint that a pyro buff would be OP, isn't how much damage it adds, or how many soul levels it would take but that Pyromancy itself, unlike Sorcery or Miracles, requires no heavy stat investment for maximum output?

    The Drake Sword Reaches it's Max Potential with very little investment, while weapons like the Man-Serpent and Uchi have to spend 40+ points into a stat.


    Sounds ridiculous right? Because they way you are wording things now that is essentially what you are saying.
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:15 am

    Guys, friendly reminder, personal attacks are against global rules. You know who you are.

    Right, from a viability standpoint 179 fire ar on a +15 weapon is really pathetic and not worth a slot at all. Not when the same slot could have any other pyromancy in it (except undead rapor.) It would literally be entirely cosmetic.

    For the record, while not actually required I'll admit, good use of pyromancy generally takes a good 30 dex. That is indeed a stat investment, and a fairly heavy one considering atm int deals more damage (excluding fire tempest) faster with tougher to dodge spells that can be used in tandem and faith does more damage faster (including fire tempest) with aoe spells, one of which will dead angle.

    Before you bring up that dex can be used for weapons so its still a low investment magic, I will remind you of the mlgs and mlbh, both of which are excellent weapons and require little to no investment in stats other than int. Faith lacks such a weapon, but its damage spells are either lightning


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:20 am

    and so no spell excists to reduce the damage or are high damage and aoe, 1 of which deflects sorcery, making faith arguably the best damage magic, hence its lack of stellar faith based weapons (though both are viable).

    Thus the conclusion can reasonably be drawn that while pyromancy inarguably requires the least investment to be effective, it is also the least effective.

    What this entire rant was intended to illustrate is that not only does everything require investment, but how low the investment VS at how much investment it reaches max power doesn't dictate its relative power, its power compared to other things in its class dictates its relative power.


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Sentiel on Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:18 am

    Jansports wrote:So your complaint that a pyro buff would be OP, isn't how much damage it adds, or how many soul levels it would take but that Pyromancy itself, unlike Sorcery or Miracles, requires no heavy stat investment for maximum output?

    The Drake Sword Reaches it's Max Potential with very little investment, while weapons like the Man-Serpent and Uchi have to spend 40+ points into a stat.


    Sounds ridiculous right? Because they way you are wording things now that is essentially what you are saying.
    Yes, that's what I'm saying, if you find it ridiculous, then perhaps you should stop commenting on it.
    I have no idea why you're suddenly bringing weapons into this. We're talking about buffs, not weapons they will be used on.

    Forum Pirate pretty much killed this whole topic anyway. big grin

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Jansports on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:26 am

    Do you think ALL pyromancy is OP just because it requires almost nil stats to be at it's peak effectiveness while the scaling spells need 30-50 of their respective stat?

    I brought the Drake sword up because right now spells are in a similar boat (even if the drake sword is a somewhat exagerated example) Because While it is true pyromancy doesn't need a stat to do it's max damage, it's maximum possible damage isn't as high as Sorcery or Miracles max damage. That's the point!

    I just don't believe that simply because pyro is less effective and more accessible that makes it OP.
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Sentiel on Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:22 pm

    Pyromancy may not be as foolproof as Sorceries, with their homing abilities, or Miracles, with their AoE and range in both cases, even so, Pyromancy is capable of dealing high damage. While the damage is lower and requires a bit of skill to fully use it, it is accessible by everyone and has no stat investments (apart from Attunement of course).

    It is by far not OP, it would be, if it was easier to use, or if it was stronger (imagine a flaming CSS, or burning WoG as an example). However, when Power Within is used as a buff, not only does your physical attack gains a 40% damage bonus, your Pyromancies get this bonus as well. This also affects any potential weapon buffs as well.

    A combination of Power Within and theoretical Pyromancy weapon buff would be OP in my opinion, because one could achieve tremendous damage output like this and all he had to do is put points to Attunement to use these, and to their full potential as well.

    Intelligence and Faith builds, to reach full potential of their weapon buffs, must not only have Attunement, but also high points in their respective stats. I'm always talking about maximum potential one can gain, in sensible SL range for PvP. So it would be around 45 for Int and 50 for Faith. While these two will get more additional damage from their weapon buffs in compariosn to Pyro buff, they had to sacrifice Vit and End to be able to invest enough points in their respective stats (Int/Faith), while Pyro doesn't have to do this and keep their HP and End high. All that and they also get boost to their spells as well with PW and still without need to sacrifice any stats at all.

    If I want...let's say a Dex buff build, I would have to do something like 30 Vit, 25 End, 45 Dex and 45 Int/50 Faith to reach max buff potential on my Dex weapons, while Pyro could roll with 50 Vit, 40 End, 45 Dex and still have points to spare. It's damage would be comparable to the other two, yet it would have higher HP and End, which wouldn't be fair to the other two.

    Pyro already got one of the best buffs in the game. Boost of 40% into all damage output is an amazing thing. While it does eat away your HP, you can have your HP very high thanks to having points to spare.

    Now, one could argument, that Int/Faith builds can also use PW. That's true, however they already have low Vit if they want to use their buffs to their max, so using something that further lowers that HP would make them very shortlived. But I know lot of guys play with glass cannons, so they may use this and be great with it. I was trying to split the differences between pure Pyro, Int and Faith. If we would go to the depths of hybrid classes, then we would find pyro weapon buff to be meaningless, as it would be outclassed by all other buffs...which is perhaps the reason there isn't one.

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Jansports on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:10 pm

    Well Gee, good thing every dex pyro actively uses PW in pvp, every mage pushes 45 Int (it is after all not even close to max potential to simply use the sizable damage boost a weapon may get at 15/25/32 int) Str only needs 27 to finish it's 2h scaling, leaving plenty of room for a 30 Fai SLB but people only buff dex weapons.

    So pyromancy itself is "By far not OP" but a cosmetic neat little 179 ar fire damage buff for a weapon would be OP because it's max potential is right there? If we look at armors and resistences in the game it's clear that this theoretical buff wouldn't even actually be better than pine resin. It would be functionally WORSE THAN RESIN. How on earth could that possibly be overpowered?

    Again all I can imagine from the way to word things, and talk about reaching max potential is that the Drake Sword is fantastic because you don't have to waste any stats for it to get there, whilst poor old Moonlight has to put so many points in Int to get max performance. Which is absurd
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Sentiel on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:22 pm

    Again, I don't understand why you keep trying to push weapons, where we talk only about buffs.

    I also have no idea how you came up with 179 AR of Fire damage. I haven't mentioned any AR at all. I also haven't even mentioned a MadAdjust modifier for the buff.

    Answers to all your posted questions are in my previous post. Read it again please, until you can understand what I was trying to say.

    If you find my opinion absurd, stop reacting to it. :roll:

    I have already said all I want to say and firmly stand behind it.

    For any further debate, please refer to my signature.

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Jansports on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:26 pm

    I got 179 from somewhere in the thread where people were discussing possible values for the AR of the buff that wouldn't feel OP.

    I bring up weapons because it's the exact same principal. Less investment Less output More investment More output. Only with pyro and sorcery its spells, with drake sword and anythingeverthatscales it's AR

    But saying something is Overpowered is NOT an opinion, with enough evidence and examination one can factually determine if something is stronger than other options by a margin.
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:22 am

    I am comparing the max damage potential, of Int/Faith buffs VS theoretical Pyro buff.

    In which case, the latter need 45/50 points to reach the maximum damage, while Pyro would need no investment at all.

    Why is max damage potential relevant again? You can get the "max damage potential" out of resins at SL 1 without any investment at all. That doesn't make it overpowered or out of place.

    As long as the "max damage potential" doesn't become unfair for the cost required to attain it, there's no imbalance and nothing overtly wrong with such a buff. Why are you insisting on mentioning this as a relevant point? It isn't. The reason people aren't addressing the max damage potential thing is because it's irrelevant.

    Talking about Att slots is pointless, as we are already talking about
    buffs, having buffs without Att slot to use, makes the buff unusable,
    thus it doesn't even belong to this conversation (about what I wrote).

    Wrong. Though small compared to maxing a stat like faith, attunement slots are a real cost on ALL buffs that are done as spells, and are thus a *relevant* consideration on comparing a theoretical spell buff to a resin, which you did. Comparing a spell to a resin and then ignoring the marginal cost of an additional attunement slot on a given build is naive.

    Considering attunement slots is infinitely more relevant than this "max potential" trash. I guess I ignored that aspect of your argument since it isn't a valid one big grin.

    I also have no idea how you came up with 179 AR of Fire damage. I
    haven't mentioned any AR at all. I also haven't even mentioned a
    MadAdjust modifier for the buff.

    Early in the thread you asserted that any buff stronger than resins would make it too good.

    You accurately state such a buff would require less investment than current ones. However, that does not mean that a weaker buff would be overpowering. I compared the buff to "magic weapon", which can also be used at very minimal investment. Perhaps not to "max potential" (which isn't relevant), but enough to overtake a resin at pitiful int stat. That's the territory where a pyro buff, if it existed, would reside.

    BTW, using PW in considering a buff is rubbish. It will boost your damage on absolutely everything and can be used with a pyro glove of any variety, meaning it is 100% viably applied to all sorceries, miracles, and even melee attacks. How can it possibly be "too strong" on a theoretical weak fire buff, if it ISN'T too strong stacked on everything else it can stack on? It's literally a potentially viable option on EVERY BUILD. How are things that apply equally in both cases relevant for decision making? They aren't.
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by ThatPerson on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:43 am

    Pyro flame EEEXXXCAALLLIIBBUUUUUUUR weapon, right, Saber? It would be a bit OP though, since you know, no stat investment.


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Kyōkai on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:27 am

    ThatPerson wrote:Pyro flame EEEXXXCAALLLIIBBUUUUUUUR weapon, right, Saber? It would be a bit OP though, since you know, no stat investment.
    Pyro flame EEEXXXCAALLLIIBBUUUUUUUR weapon, right, Saber?
    EEEXXXCAALLLIIBBUUUUUUUR
    EEEXXXCAALLLIIBBUUUUUUUR

    Yesssssss.

    Dragon Greatsword?
    Oh please.

    EKUSU-KARIBAAAAAAAAAA



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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:18 am

    I'd love a weakfish pyro buff. Only say 200 extra AR would be fair methinks.


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