Pyro Buff.

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    Kyōkai
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    Pyro Buff.

    Post by Kyōkai on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:12 am

    Sure, there's Power Within, but I'm just not pleased by the fact that there isn't a fire buff for your weapon for the Pyromancy Flame.

    Your thoughts?


    Last edited by Kyōkai on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:04 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:17 am

    That would be so unbelievably OP its just not funny. PW balances the lack of stat investment needed to use it by killing you. A buff based on the pyro flames mag adj would literally be the most powerful thing in game (now DWGR is nerfed silly). The thing that makes buffs balanced is the stat investment needed.


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:19 am

    I thoughtt about that too. it would have been good.

    There could have been a few magic based buffs, MW, GMW, and DMB, the Lightning Buff of SLB, and the Fire Damage Buff called something like....uh.... Ember Blade etc.

    Could even have been found in the Kiln of the First Flame if the player saved Solaire throughout the game. Some cool and sentimental revalation about his "personal sun" and something something like that.


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by mugenis4real on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:41 am

    Sounds like a good idea but with the Magic Adjustment on fully upgraded flame...
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Rynn on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:44 am

    >Raises Hand
    230 magic adjust. Make it go 0.8 per point.
    15 int and the Oolacile Catalyst is better buff damage then that. We'd now have a 184 point damage buff, and Great Magic Weapon from Oolacile is 198.

    You could even make it 0.9 without it being -too- powerful to be unjustified.
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by mugenis4real on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:00 am

    Well it's all just speculation, who's to say that From wouldn't have made the buff 1.0? silly
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by PlasticandRage on Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:41 am

    There're the resins. That's sort of the same thing. They require no stat prereqs, the way a pyro flame buff would, but they're weak enough to balance out the fact that they don't require anything but a standard weapon to use, you can have 99 of them at a time, and don't need to fill an attunement slot with them. If I'm using a pyro build with high enough STR or DEX to merit a standard weapon, that's usually what I do.


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:49 am

    Considering stat investments, you can have 50 Vit, 40 End and 45 Dex (for max casting speed) to be a good Pyromancer. Now, if you use Power Within, it will give you a 40% boost to everything, but drain 1% of your HP for 100 seconds. Unless you heal at least 1 HP, it will kill you, true, but the damage boost gained is far better than weapon buffs, because it also makes your spells stronger. Not only that, but it lasts for 100 seconds and can be prolonged with a ring, while weapon buff lasts for lesser amount of time.

    Anyhow, if Pyromancy had a weapon buff, even if it was the weakest one in the game (but still stronger than using a Resin) it would be still OP, because you can, with the above stats, use that buff to it's full potential and don't have to sacrifice anything for it, while Int and Faith users, must sacrifice many points into their respective stat for the buff to reach it's full potential. By then, they usually have lower Vit and End that this Pyromancer would.

    You can combine Int/Faith weapon buffs and use Power Within as well, however such a build, to reach max damage on SL 120 has to sacrifice stats, while Pyro doesn't and that is keeping the balance. While Pyro has lower damage, he has more Vit and End.

    Now, that is all considering you're going for max damage. If you're not, and you're satisfied with, let's say basic requirements to use Int/Faith buffs and have still high Vit and End (even though you would have to sacrifice something the Pyro doesn't have to, but in much smaller scale), then the buff won't do as much damage and will be on par with PW, or even lower (depending on weapon chosen etc).

    Last, but not the least.
    Pyro can always use Resins. While their damage buff is very small, they can give you chip damage ability, normal +15 lacks and you can use them to inflict Poison on your opponent, which is awesome if you want to pressure someone, or just fighting a turtle.

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:45 pm

    Anyhow, if Pyromancy had a weapon buff, even if it was the weakest one in the game (but still stronger than using a Resin) it would be still OP, because you can, with the above stats, use that buff to it's full potential and don't have to sacrifice anything for it

    Wrong. Attunement slot(s). 2 attunement slots should give anybody pause if it isn't much stronger than resins. Even 1 might. I run pure pyro with IIRC 23 attunement (whatever the break point is)...and even with that degree of investment I'd like more slots.

    No big deal you say? Well, getting enough INT to slap a good magic buff via an oolacile catalyst takes similar or less stat point investments at that point than it would take to get an additional attunement slot even if you stopped in the 16-19 attunement range. You can't possibly assert such a buff would be imbalanced compared to what's already in the game. All you have to do is be sure not to give it some ridiculous multiplier.


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Glutebrah on Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:58 pm

    so you want everyone and their mother to run around with buffed weapons??

    good luck with your 2-3 hit duels of 2013


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Jansports on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:11 pm

    While it will likely never happen since dark souls probably wont get much attention now that 2 is announced, it wouldn't be as imbalanced as people suggest. Give it a low multiplier, add maybe a thematic drawback and it's just a sorta better resin with a neat "Fire sword omg" feel to it.

    Heck make it a Chaos Pyromancy (2 slots) and give it the Chaos blade 20 damage per hit, Make it scale 10% per rank of Chaos Servant (maxing at 30%) and with a 0.6 value we'd get a 179 buff for pyromancy.

    It would be *Possible* to balance.
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:49 pm

    Do you really think it's needed?

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Jansports on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:53 pm

    Is the mail breaker needed? The shortsword? Do we need heavy AND great heavy soul arrow?

    Enthralling design isn't about whats needed, it's about what is engaging, exciting and at the end of the day fun.
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:55 pm

    Fair enough, but none of those things are go-to PvP weapons and spells. A new Pyro buff might just make its way into the meta-game.

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:41 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Fair enough, but none of those things are go-to PvP weapons and spells. A new Pyro buff might just make its way into the meta-game.

    Only if its marginal value over a resin is worth what they'd lose as an alternative in that slot. I don't think people would drop an attunement slot on a pyro buff if it only added 20-30 more damage than charcoal resin.

    The ideal value is therefore JUST at the point where it's a hard decision for people to choose between it or simply slapping on combustion, another set of fireballs, etc.

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Krasouski on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:18 pm

    Pyro has the best buff,it is called Power within.
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:57 am

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Anyhow, if Pyromancy had a weapon buff, even if it was the weakest one in the game (but still stronger than using a Resin) it would be still OP, because you can, with the above stats, use that buff to it's full potential and don't have to sacrifice anything for it

    Wrong. Attunement slot(s). 2 attunement slots should give anybody pause if it isn't much stronger than resins. Even 1 might. I run pure pyro with IIRC 23 attunement (whatever the break point is)...and even with that degree of investment I'd like more slots.

    No big deal you say? Well, getting enough INT to slap a good magic buff via an oolacile catalyst takes similar or less stat point investments at that point than it would take to get an additional attunement slot even if you stopped in the 16-19 attunement range. You can't possibly assert such a buff would be imbalanced compared to what's already in the game. All you have to do is be sure not to give it some ridiculous multiplier.
    Read.
    It was about using the buff to it's full potential without sacrificing stats.
    You have to use Att slot anyway, making it 2 instead of 1 is no difference.

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Jansports on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:19 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Fair enough, but none of those things are go-to PvP weapons and spells. A new Pyro buff might just make its way into the meta-game.

    Is that a bad thing?

    If I my interject OPINIONS right here, I think more Should be in the meta-game. Basically everything should be, every single weapon, piece of armor, spell, hoopla et all should me in the meta-game.

    ((PS I hate you Abyss Greatsword scaling))
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:34 pm

    Read.
    It was about using the buff to it's full potential without sacrificing stats.
    You have to use Att slot anyway, making it 2 instead of 1 is no difference.

    Read: Attunement slots cost stats, or a ring slot. To use an attunement slot, you have to drop a different (useful) pyro, use up a ring slot, or invest in additional stats. These are all real costs that you do NOT have to pay when using resins. Your claim is that if it were stronger at all than a resin it would be overpowered/too good. That's rather flagrantly bogus.


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:39 am

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Read.
    It was about using the buff to it's full potential without sacrificing stats.
    You have to use Att slot anyway, making it 2 instead of 1 is no difference.

    Read: Attunement slots cost stats, or a ring slot. To use an attunement slot, you have to drop a different (useful) pyro, use up a ring slot, or invest in additional stats. These are all real costs that you do NOT have to pay when using resins. Your claim is that if it were stronger at all than a resin it would be overpowered/too good. That's rather flagrantly bogus.
    Am I really that bad at explaining things, or are you people really that dense, to not be able to comprehend what I write?

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:22 am

    Sentiel wrote:
    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Read.
    It was about using the buff to it's full potential without sacrificing stats.
    You have to use Att slot anyway, making it 2 instead of 1 is no difference.

    Read: Attunement slots cost stats, or a ring slot. To use an attunement slot, you have to drop a different (useful) pyro, use up a ring slot, or invest in additional stats. These are all real costs that you do NOT have to pay when using resins. Your claim is that if it were stronger at all than a resin it would be overpowered/too good. That's rather flagrantly bogus.
    Am I really that bad at explaining things, or are you people really that dense, to not be able to comprehend what I write?

    No matter what you say, "attunement" is a stat. Does it require the same degree of investment as, say, darkmoon blade? Obviously not. But then the buff could be made much weaker than that to compensate.

    You can't discount the slot to nothing. What if you only have 1 slot and want to choose between power within and pyro weapon buff? Most people aren't going to take a buff if it's only somewhat better than a resin!

    If you're going to get an ascended glove +5, then you're going to want a few good spells like GC, possibly tempest, possibly great fireball, and power within. So, to "use it to its full potential" you either have to give up a very good spell on a glove you sunk 300k into or you have to put some points into attunement (stat investment!).

    At some point, the effective cost compared to, say, just a magic weapon buff off an oolacile cata isn't that different (you could scale the pyro weapon buff to not be too strong to compensate for how the glove works). You need what INT for magic weapon? You only need 12 to equip an oolacile cata...

    I say this because I'm planning to use it. I have a rofap dex/pyro poise tank that is at lvl 111 and has his 45 dex/40 end/40 vit already. PGS is my weapon (along with 6 attunement slots)...so I will put a point or so into int (maybe go to 14) and run a magic weapon buff on PGS. I'll probably run PW, tempest, GC, GFB, magic weapon, and Gsoul arrow (hit people running to flask in forest).

    Attunement slots are a LOT more expensive than item slots for a resin.
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:31 am

    So it's the second option.
    I was scared for a second there.


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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:33 pm

    rather than buffing an existing weapon, what if there was a pyromancy that created a blade of pure fire out of thin air. maybe the blade would materialize from your pyro flame and function like a straight sword. what if you couldn't cast any other pryomancies while it was active. it could deal pure fire damage and there could be two versions; the standard version that used only one spell slot and a chaos version that scaled with humanity but used two spell slots.

    this might be an interesting compromise. with a mid range attack rating, i think it would be competitive with the other weapon buffs while not being OP because it wouldn't stack with a weapons existing attack rating. i don't think it would replace the viability of resin buffs either. plus not being able to use any other spells while it is active would be just painful enough to balance out how awesome it would be.

    is Power Within really the best buff in the game? why don't i use it more often!


    Last edited by Nybbles on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:39 pm

    Nybbles wrote:rather than buffing an existing weapon, what if there was a pyromancy that created a blade of pure fire out of thin air. maybe the blade would materialize from your pyro flame and function like a straight sword. what if you couldn't cast any other pryomancies while it was active. it could deal pure fire damage and there could be two versions; the standard version that used only one spell slot and a chaos version that scaled with humanity but used two spell slots.

    this might be an interesting compromise. with a mid range attack rating, i think it would be competitive with the other weapon buffs while not being OP and i don't think it would replace the viability of resin buffs either.

    is Power Within really the best buff in the game? why don't i use it more often!
    ^This actually sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

    PW raises all your damage by 40%, meaning it raises spell damage as well and can be used by anyone. It lasts 100 seconds too, but it takes 1% of your HP for each second it's active.

    It's a good buff, but lot of players will just start to eavde you and run away and wait for you die due to it's HP drain effect. :/

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:21 pm

    Sentiel wrote:So it's the second option.
    I was scared for a second there.

    You've still completely and utterly failed to demonstrate how your assertion that anything even slightly stronger than resins would be overpowering, considering that I've demonstrated that such a buff costs more than resins by a significant amount.

    Your point about stat investment to optimize is irrelevant. There is a real cost above resin uses (and that cost would justify somewhat higher strength) and you can't deny or counter that, so you resort to insults. Nice try though.

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    Re: Pyro Buff.

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