Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Share

    ak1287
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 55
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2012-04-12

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by ak1287 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:04 am

    DemonOfFate wrote:See if the next soul games targets a wider audience then this wonderful community will be doomed. i mean how often in games, youtube channels etc. does everyone respect each other opinions and have mature debates. most of the time debates about other games end in name calling...

    Edit: And by wide audience i mean casuals not necessarily new fans

    Well, to be fair, calling people who DO want more accessibility 'casuals' and accusing them of wanting to 'dumb down' your game is pretty much the same as being disrespectful.
    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:46 am

    Not what he said. He said attracting casuals to the series would be bad, not that people who wanted the game easier were casuals. He was plenty respectful.

    Phrasing is crutial people, as is paying attention to it. We're not perfect but there have been a lot of misunderstandings recently.


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.

    ianhamilton_

    Posts : 12
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2012-12-19

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by ianhamilton_ on Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:13 am

    steveswede wrote:
    ianhamilton_ wrote:Also allowing sticks to be swapped, for left handed gamers.

    I had to laugh hard at the thought of left handed people doing this. I'm left handed and I would be unable to play this way round as my hand memory is just too established to work right handed.

    To be fair though that's only for you, there are many people who rely on it. When you see a 'southpaw' controller preset, that's precisely the reason why it's in there.

    Here's an example, you can see two people here discussing it, one person who has exactly the same thoughts as you, and another who can't play a game at all unless there's a left-handed mode.

    http://www.gamespot.com/borderlands/forum/southpaw-friendly-56841161/

    So just allowing the choice whether you want to swap sticks or not means both are covered.
    avatar
    ComaPrison
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 193
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2012-12-16

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by ComaPrison on Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:15 am

    I don't think anyone here is against a toggle-able options or optional peripheral devices that allow the handicapped to play. We're specifically more concerned about a general decline or stagnation in difficulty in order to cater to players who want the satisfaction of beating the game and seeing the ending without the challenge of needing to develop better skills, knowledge, and patience.


    _________________
    Skyrim is my favorite game. It is easily at least 10 times better than Dark Souls.
    avatar
    Serious_Much
    Moderator Trainee
    Moderator Trainee

    Posts : 14641
    Reputation : 287
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Age : 25
    Location : The Dark Side of the Moon

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:18 am

    I think a toggle would undermine the whole prepare to die, one difficulty *** you all approach.

    To be honest there's more clever ways to make the game accessible, slimming down early game to make it more focused on certain areas rather than completely throw you in the deep end could do this, but that would be a difficult thing to balance up so seasoned players couldn't just have a slalom competition with it


    _________________
    PSN and other stuff:
    PSN: HolyPK9 "You are free to sever the chains of fate that bind you"

    Sage Andarta, Founder of the Crystal Seekers; The Noble Knights

    Principal GremSay of the Karmatic Gremlin Gang

    Moderator of the Wiki Chatroom- Come join the fun  cheers

    PRAISE. THE. SUN. lol!
    avatar
    ComaPrison
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 193
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2012-12-16

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by ComaPrison on Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:22 am

    Serious_Much wrote:I think a toggle would undermine the whole prepare to die, one difficulty *** you all approach.

    To be honest there's more clever ways to make the game accessible, slimming down early game to make it more focused on certain areas rather than completely throw you in the deep end could do this, but that would be a difficult thing to balance up so seasoned players couldn't just have a slalom competition with it

    I wasn't talking about a toggle for difficulty. But now that you've mentioned it. DS2 should have a difficulty slider with an easy mode for casuals. There's no reason to deprive casual players of access to content as long as they're willing to pay $$$ for the game.


    _________________
    Skyrim is my favorite game. It is easily at least 10 times better than Dark Souls.
    avatar
    Serious_Much
    Moderator Trainee
    Moderator Trainee

    Posts : 14641
    Reputation : 287
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Age : 25
    Location : The Dark Side of the Moon

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:29 am

    I suppose I worded it wrong, having a toggle of information, ease of drops or whatever you'd propose on a toggle would undermine the games mental challenge, and therefore the difficulty along with it. Part of the difficulty is figuring stuff out for yourself, hence the spirit of challenge would be undermined with toggles on accessible features.

    I do think that making the game focus on aiding the player initially to figure things out, almost forcing them to otherwise be faced with challenge greater than necessary. The game doesn't necessarily need to become itself simpler but simply become better at making players learn the games features

    To me, the accessibility is lacking not because its too hard, but because people don't understand, if the game forces them better in typical souls do or die style the game will become more accessible.


    _________________
    PSN and other stuff:
    PSN: HolyPK9 "You are free to sever the chains of fate that bind you"

    Sage Andarta, Founder of the Crystal Seekers; The Noble Knights

    Principal GremSay of the Karmatic Gremlin Gang

    Moderator of the Wiki Chatroom- Come join the fun  cheers

    PRAISE. THE. SUN. lol!
    avatar
    ComaPrison
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 193
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2012-12-16

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by ComaPrison on Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:35 am

    Serious_Much wrote:I suppose I worded it wrong, having a toggle of information, ease of drops or whatever you'd propose on a toggle would undermine the games mental challenge, and therefore the difficulty along with it. Part of the difficulty is figuring stuff out for yourself, hence the spirit of challenge would be undermined with toggles on accessible features.

    I do think that making the game focus on aiding the player initially to figure things out, almost forcing them to otherwise be faced with challenge greater than necessary. The game doesn't necessarily need to become itself simpler but simply become better at making players learn the games features

    To me, the accessibility is lacking not because its too hard, but because people don't understand, if the game forces them better in typical souls do or die style the game will become more accessible.

    lol you know what else would increase accessibility? A built-in god-mode toggle.


    _________________
    Skyrim is my favorite game. It is easily at least 10 times better than Dark Souls.
    avatar
    steveswede
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 652
    Reputation : 31
    Join date : 2012-10-30
    Age : 37

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by steveswede on Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:35 am

    Slarg232 wrote:I agree with you, the playerbase would have found it eventually, but other than Crestfallen, what hints were there that you could be a Dar Wraith?

    I think it's worth keeping in mind that the Souls series encourages repeat playthroughs. It looks like the darkwraith covenant was meant to be a secret for those who complete all other stuff before they speak to Frampt, kinda like how areas opened up in DeS for flawless gameplay.

    ianhamilton_ wrote:
    steveswede wrote:
    ianhamilton_ wrote:Also allowing sticks to be swapped, for left handed gamers.

    I had to laugh hard at the thought of left handed people doing this. I'm left handed and I would be unable to play this way round as my hand memory is just too established to work right handed.

    To be fair though that's only for you, there are many people who rely on it. When you see a 'southpaw' controller preset, that's precisely the reason why it's in there.

    Here's an example, you can see two people here discussing it, one person who has exactly the same thoughts as you, and another who can't play a game at all unless there's a left-handed mode.

    http://www.gamespot.com/borderlands/forum/southpaw-friendly-56841161/

    So just allowing the choice whether you want to swap sticks or not means both are covered.

    Oh I've got no problem allowing for choice, in fact I think the entire controller should be programmable in a consoles' operation system, it just amused me left handed people wanting it. Practically every game uses the left stick for movement and the right for the camera so a shift towards the other way would be very weird to experience. It would be like swapping the crosspad and buttons the other way around or even an arcade stick being put on the right side of the buttons.

    Ya know I've just had a thought why alot of left handed people adapt to what we call right handed controllers. It's not just left handed muscle memory, left arm muscle memory plays a major role and with controllers (excluding motion controllers) not needing your arms like you did for a joystick (ha remember those fossils), opens up the accessibility to alot of people. That would explain alot with how I get around some right handed gear.
    avatar
    Slarg232
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1351
    Reputation : 51
    Join date : 2012-08-07
    Age : 26

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:09 am

    ComaPrison wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:I think a toggle would undermine the whole prepare to die, one difficulty *** you all approach.

    To be honest there's more clever ways to make the game accessible, slimming down early game to make it more focused on certain areas rather than completely throw you in the deep end could do this, but that would be a difficult thing to balance up so seasoned players couldn't just have a slalom competition with it

    I wasn't talking about a toggle for difficulty. But now that you've mentioned it. DS2 should have a difficulty slider with an easy mode for casuals. There's no reason to deprive casual players of access to content as long as they're willing to pay $$$ for the game.

    Should they pay cash to play the game THEY want to play, or should they pay cash to play the game the DEVELOPERS want them to?

    If they want to experiance a story, just for the sake of experiancing a story, why can't they play Fable? You don't see any Dark Souls fan going into WoW and saying "This game needs a button that allows you to die in one hit to everything, forcing you to learn how to use the newly implemented Dodge mechanics to it's fullest", because that's NOT what type of game WoW is.

    Dark Souls is not a game that can have multiple difficulties. It's just not. I can list the reasons why, but that would take too long. I'm all for making the Crestfallen equivalent saying something like "Across the bonfire and up the stairs is Undead Burg, I would recommend you check for supplies in the rubble." or something like that, but to actually make the game less challenging would spit in the face of any real dark souls player.


    _________________


    avatar
    ComaPrison
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 193
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2012-12-16

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by ComaPrison on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:05 pm

    Slarg232 wrote:
    ComaPrison wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:I think a toggle would undermine the whole prepare to die, one difficulty *** you all approach.

    To be honest there's more clever ways to make the game accessible, slimming down early game to make it more focused on certain areas rather than completely throw you in the deep end could do this, but that would be a difficult thing to balance up so seasoned players couldn't just have a slalom competition with it

    I wasn't talking about a toggle for difficulty. But now that you've mentioned it. DS2 should have a difficulty slider with an easy mode for casuals. There's no reason to deprive casual players of access to content as long as they're willing to pay $$$ for the game.

    Should they pay cash to play the game THEY want to play

    Yes. Here's a list of all the changes that should be included in DS2 in order to make it more accessible.

    - We all play the same character
    - Simple, straightforward story
    - Difficulty slider
    - Invasions replaced with Capture the Flag and Team Deathmatch
    - Journal and maps so no one gets lost
    - Quicktime events
    - Customizable vehicles
    - Love interest


    _________________
    Skyrim is my favorite game. It is easily at least 10 times better than Dark Souls.
    avatar
    MasterofShadows
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 243
    Reputation : 9
    Join date : 2012-12-11

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by MasterofShadows on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:25 pm

    While I"m still open to a lot of things, I don't think I'm open to allowing the difficulty to be modified. My idea of tools/tutorials for new players at the beginning of the game is to help them get a better idea of what Dark Souls is about and how it plays differently from other games. In other words, have access to better explanations of certain mechanics without having to go online. But the game should always require you to focus and properly apply what you are starting to learn, not just give you a way out. That's not how we got better at this game, and it cheapens the sense of satisfaction that comes from mastery.


    _________________
    "Everyone dies. It is how one lives that matters."
    — Artemis Entreri (R.A. Salvatore)

    "P.S. MAKE NO DEALS WITH THE WOLF." -Durzo Blint-
    avatar
    carlucio
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 177
    Reputation : 4
    Join date : 2012-08-17
    Age : 28
    Location : Brazil

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by carlucio on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:53 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:yep. First place I went was new londo. (a pyro, so every hit stunned me) Got all the way to the red guy by the vod in a suicide dash, only to find out I needed the "lordvessel" (whatever that was) After looking around (and dieing several more times) I figured it was the wrong area, so I tried the catacoumbs, where, to my great frustration, nothing would stay dead and they killed me in 2 hits. Quickly abandoning that idea (though not before getting stuck at the first bonfire for half an hour), then I tried the stairs to the burg.

    That was my first 5 hours. I was sl 4.


    I went to the catacumbs as well, as i said previously, the difference between Dark souls fans and those guys who ragequit is our resistance to frustration that is much higher, casual guys would still ragequit no matter how good are the tutorials because frustration and then sense of acomplishment is a core element of the game, you can't make Dark souls without it.
    avatar
    BIG TIME MASTER
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1445
    Reputation : 77
    Join date : 2012-06-26
    Location : Junkyard Porto-John

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:40 pm



    Get it?
    avatar
    Grey-Ronin
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 77
    Reputation : 6
    Join date : 2012-02-20

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Grey-Ronin on Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:10 pm

    Slarg232 wrote:Dark Souls is not a game that can have multiple difficulties. It's just not. I can list the reasons why, but that would take too long. I'm all for making the Crestfallen equivalent saying something like "Across the bonfire and up the stairs is Undead Burg, I would recommend you check for supplies in the rubble." or something like that, but to actually make the game less challenging would spit in the face of any real dark souls player.

    This kind of change I'd be happy with. A little more nudging for those that have absolutely no clue is fine.

    Something we're all forgetting is that Demon's Souls and Dark Souls both had easy modes i.e. choosing your starting class as the Royal or Pyromancer. Pyromancer not as much as the Royal. The Royal made the beginning of Demon's Souls a cake walk. Maybe a suggestion in the character creator for those new to the souls experience to choose the easier starting class, but just like in both games there is no difference game play between the classes after the initial areas.

    I know this wouldn't change how I create my character as I always choose the thief in my first play through.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:55 am