Defining Accessibility (Properly)

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    MasterofShadows
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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by MasterofShadows on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:15 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Asylum demon.

    The game doesn't care wether or not you know what you need to, or it would have help messages in the loading screens. It simply isseues an untimatum: figure it out.

    Haha. Can't argue with you there. Nothing said "Welcome to Dark Souls Bit**!!!!" to the newbies any better than that SOB did. LOL.

    It was quite funny, because it actually made me jump. I was a Demon's Souls veteran, but that still didn't prepare me for that moment. I come walking through the door, and I think I was more focused on the architecture. Next thing you know this dude that's bigger than a 3 story house lands right in front of me and slams his 10 ton hammer into the top of my skull. Damn near pissed myself. lol


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:17 am

    MasterofShadows wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:Asylum demon.

    The game doesn't care wether or not you know what you need to, or it would have help messages in the loading screens. It simply isseues an untimatum: figure it out.

    Haha. Can't argue with you there. Nothing said "Welcome to Dark Souls Bit**!!!!" to the newbies any better than that SOB did. LOL.

    It was quite funny, because it actually made me jump. I was a Demon's Souls veteran, but that still didn't prepare me for that moment. I come walking through the door, and I think I was more focused on the architecture. Next thing you know this dude that's bigger than a 3 story house lands right in front of me and slams his 10 ton hammer into the top of my skull. Damn near pissed myself. lol

    And then you cheesed him...


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:28 am

    steveswede wrote:Getting to the gargoyles is technically the first part of DkS so are we going to get limited options like very few weapons, armour and routes to choose from, so newbies don't rage quit because they chose to go to the catacombs instead of looking around and figuring out what is the first intended route? To veteran's, the option to freely go anywhere from the minute you hit firelink is a very important to the replayability and challenge of DkS. This is what could be sacrificed, to have options like this removed so new players don't get put off from continuing. This is how accessibility is expressed in games or at least marketed, regardless of the fact what it was supposed to mean before hand.
    :pale: :evil:


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:30 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Getting to the gargoyles is technically the first part of DkS so are we going to get limited options like very few weapons, armour and routes to choose from, so newbies don't rage quit because they chose to go to the catacombs instead of looking around and figuring out what is the first intended route? To veteran's, the option to freely go anywhere from the minute you hit firelink is a very important to the replayability and challenge of DkS. This is what could be sacrificed, to have options like this removed so new players don't get put off from continuing. This is how accessibility is expressed in games or at least marketed, regardless of the fact what it was supposed to mean before hand. :pale: :evil:

    If they took away my ability to access the VoD/the forest/Blighttown the moment I land in Firelink I'd be very p'od.

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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:15 am

    While, yes, you can actually look at that information on the screen, I only found out that I could actually do that on accident. The tutorial doesn't say that I can read that to find out-it gave players an incomplete tutorial. As for the Asylum Demon-yes, that was awesome. Note that more than half of the direction markers were in the side passage past him. Poise is as much of a mechanic of the game as blocking with a shield; it never explains that, as with a few other things, several of which really should have been. For most of the game, I agree, the cold mystery and sheer unknowing and trial-and-error method is awesome and I hope it's kept; the tutorial has a lot of room for improvement.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:29 am

    yep. First place I went was new londo. (a pyro, so every hit stunned me) Got all the way to the red guy by the vod in a suicide dash, only to find out I needed the "lordvessel" (whatever that was) After looking around (and dieing several more times) I figured it was the wrong area, so I tried the catacoumbs, where, to my great frustration, nothing would stay dead and they killed me in 2 hits. Quickly abandoning that idea (though not before getting stuck at the first bonfire for half an hour), then I tried the stairs to the burg.

    That was my first 5 hours. I was sl 4.

    After finally killing the taurus demon, I felt like god and was happy to stare at the sun with solair for the next 10 minutes, before wearily bracing myself and moving on, taking heart only in the hope that my next triumph might be so satisfying.

    Thats a proper experience, its not supposed to be linear and was better for it.

    Again, the game doesn't care and neither do I. The information is not buried in a mountain of menus, its 3 buttons


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:30 am

    Away. I'm fairly sure it tells you at the bottom of the screen that pressing select will offer description.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Grey-Ronin on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:05 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:yep. First place I went was new londo. (a pyro, so every hit stunned me) Got all the way to the red guy by the vod in a suicide dash, only to find out I needed the "lordvessel" (whatever that was) After looking around (and dieing several more times) I figured it was the wrong area, so I tried the catacoumbs, where, to my great frustration, nothing would stay dead and they killed me in 2 hits. Quickly abandoning that idea (though not before getting stuck at the first bonfire for half an hour), then I tried the stairs to the burg.

    That was my first 5 hours. I was sl 4.

    After finally killing the taurus demon, I felt like god and was happy to stare at the sun with solair for the next 10 minutes, before wearily bracing myself and moving on, taking heart only in the hope that my next triumph might be so satisfying.

    Thats a proper experience, its not supposed to be linear and was better for it.

    Again, the game doesn't care and neither do I. The information is not buried in a mountain of menus, its 3 buttons

    Hahaha, that sounds almost exactly like my first couple of hours in Dark Souls except I had the Japanese version (I live in Japan and couldn't wait for my English version to be delivered) so could barely understand anything. So much fun though figuring out what each item did and struggling my way through each new enemy. Managed to ring both bells before my English version arrived. It made me realize that there is a ton of information to help newbies. You just have to be willing to look. And if you are not willing then it has to be forced, which I am not a fan of.
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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:07 am

    5 hours? it took me 2 days with a week break in between to finally beat the first part of the Bolterian Pallace in Demon's Souls(though that's because I suck). But properly explaining the basic mechanics of the game in no way hurts the game. It certainly doesn't hurt YOUR experience in anyway, seeing as you've already played a souls game.




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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:17 am

    Demons took longer, I was less experienced (i got through combat by likening it to assassins creed 1 combat) and the flame lurk had me stuck for like 2 weeks. (magicless str/dex build) Latria had me for a while too, stuid mages and holes in the floor.

    Explaining the mechanics, especially the new mechanics, would indead harm my experience.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:21 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Demons took longer, I was less experienced (i got through combat by likening it to assassins creed 1 combat) and the flame lurk had me stuck for like 2 weeks. (magicless str/dex build) Latria had me for a while too, stuid mages and holes in the floor.

    Explaining the mechanics, especially the new mechanics, would indead harm my experience.

    How would it harm your experience exactly?

    Demon Souls did have a good tutorial, most of my deaths(and I'm assuming yours) were from traps that never killed me again in any of my following play-throughs.


    Anway, whether anyone likes it or not, it doesn't change the fact that the developers are currently working on making the game more "accessible" that much is confirmed.

    Personally, I'd much rather it be a better tutorial instead of limiting what we're allowed to do early in the game.



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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:44 am

    By depriving me of the opportunity to learn that it exsists, why ie exsists and how it works.

    Like the covs or tendancies, things are hinted at bnut you are largely left to figure it out yourself.

    The basic mechanics are all explained in the first area as it is. No more is needed, as our masterless samurai said, I'm not a fan of forced explanations.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:55 am

    If they tell us alot of info, like where to upgrade our weapons, where to find spells, how to kill bosses.... Even if they can do that without harming the players who choose not to use it's experiances, it's going to annihilate the community of the game.

    We come together through a brotherhood of sorts; You need help? I just did that, let me help you. You need this weapon? Sure, have it. Get rid of our Chicken Hawks, and we have one of the best communities in gaming, because we are "All in this together". How is being in this together supposed to mean anything if This is nothing to be worried about?


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:57 am

    What about the Drakwraith covenant? The only thing that hint's at it is that the crestfallen warrior travels to New Lando when he wants to get rid of Frampt, and nowhere does it hint that you have to kill sif and and the 4 kings before giving the lord vessel to Frampt. Did you stumble upon the covenant without going to the wiki?

    Or the Resistance stat, which seems usefull at first until you reach lvl 200+ and start getting diminishing returns in your defences. Anyone who invested in resistance got screwed out point's.

    I doubt either us plans on changing their minds so I'll just leave it at this: I don't think that a better tutorial would harm the way in any form. Though I would greatly appreciate it if it was skip-able. Perhaps create a fork in the road with the shortcut being guarded by a black knight/red eye knight/havel like character.

    Slarg232 wrote:If they tell us alot of info, like where to upgrade our weapons, where to find spells, how to kill bosses

    No one suggested that, and asylum demon says high on your third point.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:03 am

    Resistance is useful in Pve, it has a static 1% or 1 damage per point (whichever is lower, and thats not affected by diminishing returns) damage reduction. AND it has an appoximately 7x multiplier for any blow that would kill you without said multiplier

    Again, telling you how would defeat the purpose. You're supposed to figure out how. That you can join the cov is hinted at, several times. I found the DMs without the wiki and I've never had any interest in being a wraith. I actually don't know how to join, because it never interested me. I can see both endings anyways.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:09 am

    I wasn't aware of that, I wonder why?

    That you can join the darkwraiths is only hinted at if you kill Siff and obtain the covenant of artorias, and even then it doesn't warn you to not hand over the lordvessel to Kathe.

    It's not about the ending, joining the DW's is the only way of getting more red eye stones.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:11 am

    I agree with you, the playerbase would have found it eventually, but other than Crestfallen, what hints were there that you could be a Dark Wraith?


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:23 am

    I did the same thing upon reaching Lordran for the first time. I died repeatedly near the ghosts, then at the skeletons-I didn't even SEE that tiny stairway until I gave up and looked online for where I was supposed to go. I'm glad it's that way. It's only the basic mechanics that I think weren't explained adequately. What if we had gone into the game and we didn't even know about the attack controls? Not knowing some of the other basic mechanics is almost as deadly and poorly designed as that. I'm not suggesting they add in constant tutorials and obvious signs throughout the game; I'm just saying that the basic mechanics should be explained in the tutorial. Furthermore, sequel or not, it's a new game and is going to have players new to the Soul series. There will be a tutorial; get over it. If it's at all made in the same manner as the previous games, it will be concise, provide the minimum information and nothing more, and then we'll walk out of the nest knowing what we need to fly, whether we can yet or not.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:28 am

    The cracked eye orbs, abyss ring, the exsistance of the DMs, the rss, kirk, the book of the guilty (which actually shows the covs the character is in, but that asside) indictments, that the cracked eye orbs seem to be extremely limited (thus raising the question of how one gets any real amount of sin. They're subtle, but all these things point to the ability to join the dws.

    They are explained. In messages, on the ground. There's even a big obvious READ MESSAGE X thing that pops up when you're on them.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:29 am

    Acarnatia wrote: and then we'll walk out of the nest knowing what we need to fly, whether we can yet or not.

    I wish I could +1 you, but I can't today :cry:

    ForumPirate: Yes but the joining the DW's is the only instance where you're forced to sequence break(and saving solaire I guess, but not really).


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:35 am

    You're not supposed to. You're supposed to fail. A lot.

    The devs were cited repeatedly saying "the point of failure (in dks) is learning."

    You're supposed to plumet from the nest, then climb up and try again until you get it.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:38 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:You're not supposed to. You're supposed to fail. A lot.

    The devs were cited repeatedly saying "the point of failure (in dks) is learning."

    You're supposed to plumet from the nest, then climb up and try again until you get it.

    And now the Devs are saying "more accessible" so guess what? Times are Changing Forum, whether for better or worse we'll have to wait and see.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:47 am

    Not what I was arguing. In fact its completely irrelevant to the point.

    A departure from that is a departure from the heart of the series and I'm against it. Thats what I'm arguing against or (more often) trying to explain and justify because others fail to understand.


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:54 am

    I'm just hoping that if they make the begining of the game easier for newcomers, that they make the rest of the game harder than Demon's and Dark to compensate for it. Like Idk... actually decent AI. Instead of hollows and dreglings, I want mini flame lurkers all over the place!


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    Re: Defining Accessibility (Properly)

    Post by DemonOfFate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:41 am

    See if the next soul games targets a wider audience then this wonderful community will be doomed. i mean how often in games, youtube channels etc. does everyone respect each other opinions and have mature debates. most of the time debates about other games end in name calling...

    Edit: And by wide audience i mean casuals not necessarily new fans


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