I see why Faith is useless...

So I have a build, this build.
What happens when I use Great Heal and get a full heal? The opponent heals after they backstab me while I was recovering. What happens if I use TWoP? People say I'm "cheap". What happens if I theoretically cast TWoP and WoG while they are affected by a spell that could easily be punished or avoided? I'm a big tryhard! What if I dedicate points to FAI and STR to use Stone Greatsword and WoG for a more safer method? I'm the biggest tryhard ever.

The point is that FAI is useless because 2 of its best abilities (Great Heal and TWoP) are often softbanned from dueling. So FAI builds are practically forbidden or discouraged from using their healing and slow nerf. This, in turn, actually affects other "useless" builds.

STR builds, with their slowness, are completely outmatched in PVP due to backstabs. A STR player is going to lose to a DEX character of equal skill. STR have the answer, TWoP. They can account for their slowness and they even have Stone Greatsword for a quicker method. At what cost? Mobility. Seems like a trade-off.

Tanks have great heal. They can account for their slowness with survivability. They can add to that survivability with healing. They can use the fear factor of "don't be careless" of STR weapons to make opponents be hesitant so they are more likely to pull if off. They also can use Stone Greatsword to make an impenetrable wall that will let them be very likely to get that heal!

There problem is NO ONE wants them to! You are considered to have broken the honor codes by using any form of TWoP or healing miracles. Maybe if people could read the obvious signs of a giant green blade they could have been more careful and tried to pressure better so they could punish it and back off. Maybe if they simply have invested around 5 points to INT or ATT, they could have placed a Great Soul arrow to kill healers, or better yet, a GC for the quick finish. Maybe if people weren't so foolish as to let their opponents finish their castings, they wouldn't be complaining the user was being "cheap".

But no, we have to ban it. I don't see people banning Dark Bead for it being a 1-hit or mages in general. We have to ban 2 great moves that help FAITH and STRENGTH builds be more competitive, all because of gankers and the foolishness of thinking that healing with a miracle is the same thing as popping humanity or Estus. Yeah, it ain't fast or a guaranteed heal...

But, let's end this rant here.
It really came to me after I noticed people started healing after I either used miracle healing or tried to pull TWoP. The biggest reason certain builds are useless or other builds are top-tier is because of the "honor" restrictions that the community seems to be forcing upon itself. Ninja flipping is completely pro because no one wants to use TWoP. STR builds are too unreliable because none of them decide to use Stone Greatsword to compensate.

I don't know, what do you think about this? I know some of you are totally fine with this, but 30% of my fights usually end with me breaking the honor code.

Faith isn't useless at all. I roll useful faith and Str builds without using TwoP or Great Heal. Also, have you seen how many faith builds there are in PvE play, or how many Sunbros use Faith? It's incredibly common, and incredibly useful for what they want to do at least. Why don't you just play the way you want to play without worrying about what people may say about you?

FAI is considered most useless because it only has a handful of viable spells. In PvE it is awesome, as I had owned with a FAI build, but this thread is being spoken in a PVP aspect (hence the PVP section). I'm not worrying about what people say about me, I roll how I want in duels and invasions alike, but I like pointing out why the FAI magic path is weaker because of people's honor codes. I do hate that the second I roll how I want, people decide to put me at a disadvantage by estusing or humaniting; you know, not getting a real fair fight?

Heal miracles are perfectly fine in my book. If you're able to get it off, it's on your opponent not the healer.

Cast TwoP and then Great heal. It'll stop you from being backstabbed. Faith is mostly a defensive/support magic, it doesn't and shouldn't have too many offensive spells, but that doesn't make it useless in PvP. I have a SL100 Fai/Str that I've had great success with using more of the defensive spells rather than going on the offense with twop, SLB, wog, etc. Try things like Great Magic Barrier, Replenishment, etc, with one Wog to tack on some damage or dead angle a turtle.

Here, this is my build. http://tinyurl.com/cd6he5w Totally viable.

Not too sound mean or anything, but, the difference between your build and mine is that yours is fast rolling and using an axe. Mine is fat rolling using a slow greataxe.

Cast TwoP and then Great heal. It'll stop you from being backstabbed.

I've done that, but it isn't the point. The point is that once I do, the opponent uses either Estus or humanity; immediately, I've lost my advantage. Also, that isn't foolproof, I've had someone literally run into the TWoP and backstab me while I was healing.

Also, I don't think you're getting the message of the thread...

To most people, healing is healing, regardless of how one does it. Try the Replenishment miracle. It won't heal as much, but it's more likely that your opponent won't flask because of it. Just buff with it before the battle. Sadly, not every spell in the game was created or balanced for PvP, From didn't desogn the game like that. There are a lot of spells in Sorcery that are quite useless in PvP for the same reason, like Magic Shield and such. If you really care about viability, don't find find something and try to make it work, try to find something that works.

Very well said, Ghadis.

Seignar
I have no problem with either of those (mabey a little for WoG/TWoP spam)
However those are by no means the be all and end all of Faith builds, in fact I almost never use them for my faith builds
Also faith is not the weakest magic, Faith can dish out some very serious damage if you use it right
And finally if you keep getting crap from people go to the forest where half the people use those spells

Ghadis
More than half of the Faith spells are offensive, how can faith be considered defensive when you have things like emit force, WoG, GLGSD, the lightning spear family and the two strongest weapon buffs in the game?

If you think TWoP is one of the 2 best miracles you're already wrong.

http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=269583621553171638
heres my planned str faith build for the chaos legion, that club is evil when two handed, hence why im okay with less str. and the large leather shield is amazing, 91% phys 35% magic 60% fire and 60% lightning at 65 stability for 1.5 pounds!

as for a great axe... which one are you using? if its the regular one... get something else,
http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=316023506250473010

I have a pure faith build concentrating on offensive faith spells.
I made it only recently, and I'm shocked at how much face it wrecks.

Is this a joke?

faith is awesome, now that magic has dark bead i don't think anyone has the right to complain about TWOP or WOG

My faith build wrecks any kind of mage no matter what they are using! This thread is pure madness! Faith can dominate all in the right hands. Mages are a JOKE to me. Great Magic Barrier, Wrath of the Gods, Karmic Justice, Dark Moon Blade etc the list goes on and this is just PvP...WOW! at this...

Espada Muerta wrote:My faith build wrecks any kind of mage no matter what they are using! This thread is pure madness! Faith can dominate all in the right hands. Mages are a JOKE to me. Great Magic Barrier, Wrath of the Gods, Karmic Justice, Dark Moon Blade etc the list goes on and this is just PvP...WOW! at this...

I hate Mages sooooooo so much, and thats in all games not just DS, every one of those freaks are abominations in the eyes of the Maker and must be put down,.... my point being is the my faith build also wrecks Mage characters.

I dont use Heal Spells but I do use Rengenerations and some of the more impressive Princess Guard Miracles ( the latter more for PvE and when an invader comes mid way through a co op ) and I find that all of the miracles have some use or another.

I dont use TWoP often but when I do I care little for someone calling me cheap. Though I RP when I play Dark Souls and my Knightly Knight wont backstab people often.

My Miracle Set up usually looks like- Replenishment ( for the handy HP regen again any foe), Great Magic Barrier ( All the better to kill mages with), and WoG and Great Lightning Spear.

In straight Spell vs Miracle Shoot outs I usually win. The Lightning Spear is a gem when it impacts!

The only trouble I ever have with Faith is how I hate being a good guy and how I alway feel heroic when I use miracles....

the fact is Faith is to strong.

if everyone rolled faith and used it to its strongest potential, every other build would be useless.

play the game the way you enjoy it, if that means using TWOP and WOG spam then do it who cares. but i know that isnt fun, that cant be fun for anyone, just sounds boring.

I use Faith to counter mages but my greatest creation uses both Faith and Dark Magic....

I haven't read this whole thread, only the initial post, so I'm just responding to that here, but there's so much more to FTH than healing spells, TWoP, and WoG. I actually don't even really have a problem with WoG or TWoP, there are just ways to use them that are pretty lame. I have a toon that I equip WoG's on, but I only use three of them, and I don't spam them generally. Usually I use them to punish BS fishing, and the like. I've actually never used a healing spell. With estus and humanity in my inventory there's just such better things to use to fill those attunement slots. Force and Emit Force are both wonderful, and relatively underused spells IMO. I've used both of them a great deal, and had a lot of success, and I don't think either are considered cheap. There's also the two weapon buffs to consider, which I think are both great, as well as VoS and the MB spells. In fact I think the majority of faith spells outside what were mentioned have their uses. Not all of them are my favorite things ever, but I think they're far from useless.

I say, do as you will and not let other people's opinions dictate how you play the game.
Because unlike those gankers, we're merely using those spells as support that supplements our build's playstyles. That pretty much justifies our usage of the spell.

I used to run a Str/Faith tank in the past.
I intentionally made it fat roll, so I can't evade and have to block. Mages were my bane as they should, but I got also killed by pretty much everybody else too, which kid of ticked me off.
All Dex builds simply evaded my attacks and backstabbed me and mages just spammed me to death.

How to deal with it?
Use your Miracles!
You have them for that very reason!

Is your opponent fast and likes to roll around?
TWoP.

Does he like to cast magic?
GMB/VoS.

Is he using ranged attacks?
Lightning Spears, Greatbow and some weapons have long range attacks, especially Dragon Greatsword works well vs Casters.

I'm trying to say, that you always have means to deal with every situation, don't refrain from using them for any reason. They're not glitches, hacks, bugs, or anything. They don't on shot everything in 5 km radius around you.

If I see someone cast TWoP, I can...
Flee and wait for it to run out and try to get close to punish any attepmts to cast it again.
Switch to ranged attacks.
Take out a bigger weapon, that can stunlock, like Zwei, put on some Poise and go macho battle.
Use AoE to keep opponent away.
Cast TWoP myself.

So where is the problem with TWoP, or any other spell?
It's in you , who can't fight against it and are lazy, or unable to find a way to do so.
They are not cheap.
People are cheap.
Instead of learning to fight against something, they keep complaining and tell you not to use it.
Why let them dictate your playstyle and what you can and cannot do?
Why let them get an easy win?

tl:dr?
Ignore hatemail, do what you want to do, not what others tell you to do. The game permits everything and gives it to you for that exact reason.

PS: When you crouch to cast, you can get easily headshoted by throwing knives and crossbows. Damage aside, it will stop your casting, no matter your Poise.

I love faith builds! Fai/Vit, Fai/Dex, Fai/Str!!!
Sorry but I don't sacrifice my play style for whiney little princesses who can't use their spells when I cast VoS or force. Stick to your guns dude.
(My two pennies worth)

What idiot softbans healing miracles.

Glutebrah wrote:the fact is Faith is to strong.

if everyone rolled faith and used it to its strongest potential, every other build would be useless.

play the game the way you enjoy it, if that means using TWOP and WOG spam then do it who cares. but i know that isnt fun, that cant be fun for anyone, just sounds boring.

If we all rolled anything at full effect things would be simiar to what they are now

As to how we all hate mages I say "Burn the witch" and "Kill it with fire"because my new Pyro/Reaper/God build does just that
I love the smell of crispy fried mages in the morning, or any other time of day for that matter