What do backstabs really add to the game?

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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:56 am

    I'm on X-box.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Mr. Tart on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:58 am

    The way I see it, backstabbing is not a bad idea, however the way it functioned in Dark Souls wasn't the best of ways. Since the real problem is that backstabs can be repeated so quickly I think that if they made it weaker with a cooldown per use, it could balance things out. I also think certain armor with backstabbing resistance could make a good balance as well at the cost of some movement speed or something along those lines. I mean, imagine backstabs not being overpowered and with cooldowns, or armors with resistance against it, people wouldn't circle around all the time backstab-fishing if there was no real use to it. Having said that, I don't mean backstabs should be completely useless, however I don't believe it should be as strong as it is either, but that's just my opinion.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:03 am

    I see where you're coming from, but why should a BS have a cooldown? It's just a stab.

    Also, with regards to BS resistant armor, I've seen many people advocate for BSs to be impossible to pull off if one has a shield on their back. What people seem to forget is - Sanctus, Grass Crest Shield.

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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Mr. Tart on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:07 am

    I was only suggesting a solution to the whole problem. How does one stop backstab-fishing? Well, the only ideas that hits my mind are these three;

    Either you totally remove it, make it so very weak it's useless, or add a cooldown along with a nerf to the damage, while still leaving the backstab worthwhile. It may not be realistic, but it sure is a solution, and correct me if i'm wrong, but i think a solution is what we need. I'm basically just throwing out ideas though. tongue


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:11 am

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:I see where you're coming from, but why should a BS have a cooldown? It's just a stab.

    Also, with regards to BS resistant armor, I've seen many people advocate for BSs to be impossible to pull off if one has a shield on their back. What people seem to forget is - Sanctus, Grass Crest Shield.

    Set it so Karmic Justice activates whenever anyone tries a backstab and boom, problem solved.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:12 am

    That's the trade-off though.

    Would people be Ok with trading in realism for fairness? I guess we'll have to wait and see what DkS2 has in store for us. :|

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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Mr. Tart on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:13 am

    Well, i'm gonna go with a low blow here. silly

    ...

    There's already magic, so why not add more non-realistic stuff for the sake of balance and fairness?


    Last edited by Mr. Tart on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:13 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:13 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:
    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:I see where you're coming from, but why should a BS have a cooldown? It's just a stab.

    Also, with regards to BS resistant armor, I've seen many people advocate for BSs to be impossible to pull off if one has a shield on their back. What people seem to forget is - Sanctus, Grass Crest Shield.

    Set it so Karmic Justice activates whenever anyone tries a backstab and boom, problem solved.

    Good idea.

    But if that happens it won't be long before all those "Ermagherd Dark Beab! OP bulsshit!" threads become Karmic Justice threads.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:13 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    no the mention when using a dagger, you will have TONES of poise and deffence
    when if you choose to use ultra great, you will have none or 40
    and becoz your are near naked, you suffer hugh risk for being bleed out or poison

    the only reason your Armor/poise is so limited is because you want a fast roll.. so you can roll backtab.

    Kicks are the same for all weapons, except curved swords and rapiers as far as I know. And they're pretty effective.

    There are too many problems with mid roll, and me personal don't think it is viable at all in PVP
    Could you dodge dark magic in a reliable manner with mid roll?
    whats your plan when your opponent decided to WOTG spam?
    Swithcing to full havel when the map is narrow --> Oh Yes
    Jack up the poise to do nothing but poise BS --> Um.... Maybe...
    but running it all day is just...... problematic
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:19 am

    I actually manage to dodge Drak bead just fine with a midroll.. and that's by just randomly rolling around. I can tell it hits me during an invincibility frame because I can still hear the impact noise. Wog still gets me every now and then.

    You can't always be prepared for every situation, sometimes a build will just completely counter yours.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:21 am

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:
    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:I see where you're coming from, but why should a BS have a cooldown? It's just a stab.

    Also, with regards to BS resistant armor, I've seen many people advocate for BSs to be impossible to pull off if one has a shield on their back. What people seem to forget is - Sanctus, Grass Crest Shield.

    Set it so Karmic Justice activates whenever anyone tries a backstab and boom, problem solved.

    Good idea.

    But if that happens it won't be long before all those "Ermagherd Dark Beab! OP bulsshit!" threads become Karmic Justice threads.

    Well that would be their fault for going for the backstab, just like those guys who complain about dark bead probably recklessly ran up to the mage(even if they insist it was lag >.>)


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:24 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:23 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:I actually manage to dodge Drak bead just fine with a midroll.. and that's by just randomly rolling around. I can tell it hits me during an invincibility frame because I can still hear the impact noise. Wog still gets me every now and then.

    You can't always be prepared for every situation, sometimes a build will just completely counter yours.

    If you light roll and can swith between wolf and Dark Wood ring, there is nothing you can't solve (((((((((((in a open space silly
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by BeeSeaEss on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:24 am

    you can mid roll through someone who is WoTG spamming with 45 dex, onlyafro proved it on his youtube channel


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Tomhet on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:25 am

    *sigh* More complaining :roll: Backstabs are useful for PvE, specially at low levels. Killing Havel without them would be extremely difficult. It's a feature I would hate to see removed.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:27 am

    Damn double post -_-


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:28 am

    raphael1019 wrote:

    If you light roll and can swith between wolf and Dark Wood ring, there is nothing you can't solve (((((((((((in a open space silly

    Full Havels +Dusk Crown +Bellowing+ Dragoncrest Ring + (Manus Catalyst + Dark Bead) + (Logans Catalyst + Pursuers) says high.

    Throw in a stone greatsword just to be a d!ck. 8)


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:49 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:29 am

    Tomhet wrote:*sigh* More complaining :roll: Backstabs are useful for PvE, specially at low levels. Killing Havel without them would be extremely difficult. It's a feature I would hate to see removed.
    My post goes over PvE. It's abused in PvE as well, and as it stands is a bad contribution to both PvE and PvP.

    Killing Havel should be extremely difficult.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:30 am

    Tomhet wrote:*sigh* More complaining :roll: Backstabs are useful for PvE, specially at low levels. Killing Havel without them would be extremely difficult. It's a feature I would hate to see removed.

    If you can parry Gwyn then you can parry Havel... fail and things will get a little messy though.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:30 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:Full Havels +Dusk Crown +Bellowing+ Dragoncrest Ring Manus Catalyst + Pursuers+ DarkBead says high.

    Throw in a stone greatsword just to be a d!ck. 8)

    I know people are going to say peace walker loll so I wrote """""open spac""" silly
    Just run away till peace walker finish and roll BS
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:31 am

    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Full Havels +Dusk Crown +Bellowing+ Dragoncrest Ring Manus Catalyst + Pursuers+ DarkBead says high.

    Throw in a stone greatsword just to be a d!ck. 8)

    I know people are going to say peace walker loll so I wrote """""open spac""" silly
    Just run away till peace walker finish and roll BS

    that's why pursuers is there... Muahahahaha!


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:48 pm

    Rynn wrote:
    Tomhet wrote:*sigh* More complaining :roll: Backstabs are useful for PvE, specially at low levels. Killing Havel without them would be extremely difficult. It's a feature I would hate to see removed.
    My post goes over PvE. It's abused in PvE as well, and as it stands is a bad contribution to both PvE and PvP.

    Killing Havel should be extremely difficult.

    Yes, and it IS. Fight him with a "heavy" character, it would be a rock vs rock fight, that would either be: long because none takes fast damage or short because 3 hits and you're dead because of heavy weaponry. But because of BS fast characters with fast, light but low damaging weaponry have a chance. It's about variety and giving everyone a chance. I already said that I agree that heavy weapons should need a nerf when it comes to Backstabs.

    And raphael1019, that's the point, there shouldn't be a way that "works against everything". Because that would make those selected group of people stronger. BS on the other hand can be done by anyone, but fast characters (which MUST sacrifice armor and most heavy weaponry to be fast) have an advantage in doing just that.

    And I can dodge Crystal Spears, Crystal Homing Soul Mass, and Dark Bead, FAT rolling just fine, AND win. And I can tell you and I can dodge ANYTHING midrolling. I prefer to be speedy though so I tend to go fast rolling and no poise at all (because I don't like it very much). I go for the looks with when it comes to armor (mostly clothes in my case haha).


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:13 pm

    I only read the first post Rynn.

    Anyways, that (imo) is just dark souls. In demons the only reliable backstabbing method I ever saw was from stealth or to punish idiots who heal or cast to close. You could piviot, but the counter bs was to easy for that to work most of the time.

    I'd recommend watching demons stealth pvp to see what I mean, but I really enjoyed the bs and stealth mechanics in demons and would love to see them back.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:23 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I only read the first post Rynn.

    Anyways, that (imo) is just dark souls. In demons the only reliable backstabbing method I ever saw was from stealth or to punish idiots who heal or cast to close. You could piviot, but the counter bs was to easy for that to work most of the time.

    I'd recommend watching demons stealth pvp to see what I mean, but I really enjoyed the bs and stealth mechanics in demons and would love to see them back.

    I agree, but still I think BS should be tweaked in some way to make it less powerful when it comes to big weapons. Anyway, I really LOVED the stealth factor that DeS had. Sadly it's not anymore in Dark Souls except for Chamaleon. With Thief Ring and Cloak you could be invisible to a player while being just a few meters from him, I remember lots of time when I was invading a host with his phantom, I almost killed the host but then the phantom came and pushed me, and suddenly the host disappeared. I backstabbed the phantom so gain some time and ran quickly further into the level, I didn't saw him, at all, where the hell could he be? But then I realized, there was some green sparkles floating in the air (the host had some kind of stamina regen equipped) a few meters from me, he then took the Ring off and appeared, and I was like "Wtf?" and the phantom appeared and killed me :x.

    Fun times.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by RANT on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:45 pm

    backstabs is not the problem, sure they can fix it so its not so damn easy to bs but the problem lies in the community which is kinda shetty for the most part and you really cant do anything about that.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:26 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Rynn wrote:
    Tomhet wrote:*sigh* More complaining :roll: Backstabs are useful for PvE, specially at low levels. Killing Havel without them would be extremely difficult. It's a feature I would hate to see removed.
    My post goes over PvE. It's abused in PvE as well, and as it stands is a bad contribution to both PvE and PvP.

    Killing Havel should be extremely difficult.

    Yes, and it IS. Fight him with a "heavy" character, it would be a rock vs rock fight, that would either be: long because none takes fast damage or short because 3 hits and you're dead because of heavy weaponry. But because of BS fast characters with fast, light but low damaging weaponry have a chance. It's about variety and giving everyone a chance. I already said that I agree that heavy weapons should need a nerf when it comes to Backstabs.

    And raphael1019, that's the point, there shouldn't be a way that "works against everything". Because that would make those selected group of people stronger. BS on the other hand can be done by anyone, but fast characters (which MUST sacrifice armor and most heavy weaponry to be fast) have an advantage in doing just that.

    And I can dodge Crystal Spears, Crystal Homing Soul Mass, and Dark Bead, FAT rolling just fine, AND win. And I can tell you and I can dodge ANYTHING midrolling. I prefer to be speedy though so I tend to go fast rolling and no poise at all (because I don't like it very much). I go for the looks with when it comes to armor (mostly clothes in my case haha).

    There is no such thing as a specific group having an advantage on rolling
    because regardless of what weapon a guy choose to use, EVERYONE (Well, 98.99% ppl that I see in pvpv) FAST ROLL
    And I would argue that "having a work against everything" solution that every build can use is a good thing
    otherwise, the result of a fight would be highly dependent on builds (think mage vs great magic barrier)

    And for the second part.............I mean .....seriously....

    Do I really need to explain how MID ROLL and FAT ROLL S***?
    I thought that was common sense, general knowledge, Newton first law, fact that could be stated in present tense with !!!at the end
    I can dodge everything with fat roll too
    Well... for a while
    well...if it doesn't lag at all
    And well.....if the opponent is soo crappy loll
    Sure you can dodge magic with a mid roll
    But if you can't punish the mage after dodging it then whats the point?
    after dodging one, you just end up being shoot by the second
    and your health would be continue chipped away everytime it lags a little because of mid roll's crappy invincible frames.
    if you attemp to dodge a light swing of a dex weapon, you proprably end up being hit twice because of the slow roll recovery
    and not to mention every mid roll is a chance for BS punish
    People in the games doesn ""prefer""" light roll
    they do it because is it the only way to survive in pvp ((In most condition))

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